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#1933600 - 07/28/12 01:20 PM Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not?
jordyzzz Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/24/12
Posts: 9
Hi masters of this forum laugh ... i'm new here and i'm looking for expert advice laugh

i'm looking forward to learn one of these pieces:

1. Chopin's Revolutionary etude
2. Liszt Liebestraum no.3

Which one is realistic for me to learn in 2 years??
FYI, i've been played for 3 years, mostly self taught.. and the hardest piece that i've successfully conquered is clair de lune (see my video here for a clue of my playing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dfPb0c061A ). And another hard piece that i was able to accomplish (not very clean performance) is Time Travel theme from Secret movie and Chopin's Fantasie impromptu..

those 2 pieces are a piece that i dream about playing it when i start learning piano (well another one is Liszt La Campanella, but maybe impossible for me for at least the next 10 years..)

So which one is your recommendation for me to learn?? and on your recommendation, could you please add a recommended "warm up piece" to learn before learning the main piece??

Thanks every one laugh
_________________________
pop and beginner jazz pianist, played for 3 years.. now trying classical music..

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#1933602 - 07/28/12 01:23 PM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: jordyzzz]
jdhampton924 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/13/08
Posts: 1006
Loc: Evansville, Indiana
Are you wanting to finish them in two years? or start them in two years?

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#1933603 - 07/28/12 01:26 PM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: jordyzzz]
jordyzzz Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/24/12
Posts: 9
it would be awesome to finish in 2 years.. but i do realize that those are hard pieces (at least for me, playing piano for only 3 years), maybe i will need 2-5 "warming up" pieces before i start learning it.. so 2 years later to start? not a problem.. but it would be awesome to finish in 2 years.
_________________________
pop and beginner jazz pianist, played for 3 years.. now trying classical music..

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#1933604 - 07/28/12 01:27 PM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: jordyzzz]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2055
Loc: Canada
I was talking to a friend who's studying aerospace engineering. He said that when solving complex fluid dynamics problems using computer programs, they first do an analysis as to what will take less time: the time required for the current software + hardware to complete the calculations, or the time required to wait for the next generation of computational software to be developed + the time required for this next-gen software to do the computations.

It's probably similar to your situation - what will be faster, working on these pieces now? Or playing pieces that suit your level better, slowly improving, and then tackling these advanced pieces later on?

The better solution (in terms of piano) is to be patient and wait. Learn pieces that are more suitable for your current technique, and do exercises to improve (scales, octaves, arpeggios, studies, etc). Because maybe the following will happen: you'll spend 2 years improving your ability to play the piano, and then you'll learn both pieces within the span of 2 months. This is a far better solution than hoping that 2 years of work on the same piece (I can't even imagine committing that much time to either piece) will lead it to being performance-ready.
_________________________
Working on:
Beethoven - Piano Sonata op. 109
Brahms - 6 Klavierstucke op. 118
Rachmaninoff - Piano Concerto no.3

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#1933606 - 07/28/12 01:31 PM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: Kuanpiano]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5067
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
I was talking to a friend who's studying aerospace engineering. He said that when solving complex fluid dynamics problems using computer programs, they first do an analysis as to what will take less time: the time required for the current software + hardware to complete the calculations, or the time required to wait for the next generation of computational software to be developed + the time required for this next-gen software to do the computations.

It's probably similar to your situation - what will be faster, working on these pieces now? Or playing pieces that suit your level better, slowly improving, and then tackling these advanced pieces later on?

The better solution (in terms of piano) is to be patient and wait. Learn pieces that are more suitable for your current technique, and do exercises to improve (scales, octaves, arpeggios, studies, etc). Because maybe the following will happen: you'll spend 2 years improving your ability to play the piano, and then you'll learn both pieces within the span of 2 months. This is a far better solution than hoping that 2 years of work on the same piece (I can't even imagine committing that much time to either piece) will lead it to being performance-ready.

Exactly what I was going to say (minus the aerospace analogy, of course). I didn't always follow this advice when I was younger, but if I had, I would have been much better off.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#1933607 - 07/28/12 01:32 PM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: jordyzzz]
jordyzzz Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/24/12
Posts: 9
great recommendation kuan laugh
do you have any recommended work out pieces or studies for me to start with??
well i'm aiming to finish in 2 years, it doesn't mean that i'll abandon my piano studies.. maybe i learn a piece but in the meantime i could take a peek into one of those 2 pieces, and memorize them bit by bit..
_________________________
pop and beginner jazz pianist, played for 3 years.. now trying classical music..

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#1933616 - 07/28/12 02:09 PM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: jordyzzz]
Franz Beebert Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/11
Posts: 354
You could always try Chopin's 3rd prelude in G Major. It's a wonderful composition that only lasts for two pages. The patterns in the left hand in that piece will prepare you well for the Revoulutionary Etude.

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#1933619 - 07/28/12 02:17 PM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: jordyzzz]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2100
Realistic or not?

Not realistic.

Ok, here is another story:

A young boy sees this young man carrying a bull on his shoulders and asks him how could he do that. The young man's answer is simple "We grew up together!".

So, begin with what you can handle now, and as your technique advances you will also be able to play more and more advanced pieces by time.
Just be patient, have a good teacher and work your way up slowly.


Edited by Hakki (07/28/12 02:17 PM)
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Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

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#1933665 - 07/28/12 04:53 PM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: jordyzzz]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3246
>Learn pieces that are more suitable for your current technique, and do exercises to improve (scales, octaves, arpeggios, studies, etc). Because maybe the following will happen: you'll spend 2 years improving your ability to play the piano, and then you'll learn both pieces within the span of 2 months.

Is that scenarion (just work on technique for 2 years and then learn the two pieces in 2 months each, finishing the job in 2 years 4 months) even remotely likely?

Actually I would expect it far more likely that he has quit piano after working for 2 years on technique than he would be likely to quit piano working 2 years on the first piece of his list ...
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#1933687 - 07/28/12 05:20 PM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: wouter79]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2055
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: wouter79
>Learn pieces that are more suitable for your current technique, and do exercises to improve (scales, octaves, arpeggios, studies, etc). Because maybe the following will happen: you'll spend 2 years improving your ability to play the piano, and then you'll learn both pieces within the span of 2 months.

Is that scenarion (just work on technique for 2 years and then learn the two pieces in 2 months each, finishing the job in 2 years 4 months) even remotely likely?

Actually I would expect it far more likely that he has quit piano after working for 2 years on technique than he would be likely to quit piano working 2 years on the first piece of his list ...

Who said only do exercises? Play whatever you want, but play to improve.
_________________________
Working on:
Beethoven - Piano Sonata op. 109
Brahms - 6 Klavierstucke op. 118
Rachmaninoff - Piano Concerto no.3

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#1933690 - 07/28/12 05:35 PM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: jordyzzz]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Based on the Claire de Lune video, I think you play extremely well for only three and mostly self taught.

If you mean you're planning to spend two years learning one of these pieces this would mean the pieces are too difficult at this point. If you mean after two more years practice, these pieces might be possible, but it is extremely difficult to progress without a teacher IMO. Even if you take lessons from a friend who is more advanced and is willing to help or from a professional teacher but only once/month this is much better than trying to invent the wheel by yourself. Another option is to post videos at PW and ask for advice although this can sometimes be either a negative experience or counterproductive due to bad or conflicting advice.

Besides the good advice Kuanpiano has given, I'd suggest listening to some more classical piano music. I think you'll find hundreds of pieces that you might want to learn as much as these two famous pieces you mentioned and you could learn them now and in around a month's time each. Or you could ask for suggestions at PW and then listen to them to decide which ones you like...just make sure to give us some idea of what composers or musical periods you're interested in.

Although you show great patience if you are willing to spend two years learning a piece that lasts less than 5 minutes, I think this is not a productive way to learn piano.



Edited by pianoloverus (07/28/12 05:45 PM)

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#1933700 - 07/28/12 05:53 PM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: jordyzzz]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4158
I listened to your Clair de Lune. You're talented, Jordy. Get a GOOD teacher and let him/her guide your talent. Do I think you could learn those two pieces you listed without a teacher? Yeah, I do.. and in a lot less time than 2 years. But getting a good teacher is the best route. Teachers love kids like you. (assuming you're a kid/teen) So get a good teacher and good luck!
_________________________
To each his own.

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#1933711 - 07/28/12 06:20 PM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: jordyzzz]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17670
Loc: Victoria, BC
I agree with all those who have said :
- work on pieces that help develop your technique and your interpretive skills in progressive steps
- while you may wish to "play around" with difficult repertoire, don't makes serious attempts at works that are far beyond your current level. Doing that risks wasting time, boredom and "burn-out," as you would have to take so much more time to "learn" either of the pieces you mention than you would to learn them once you have developed better technique.
- explore other repertoire not only by Chopin and Liszt but by other composers as well.

If you have hopes of learning to play classical repertoire well, you should invest in getting a good teacher. Your "Clair de lune" shows promise, but you have timing issues as well as some bad playing habits that a teacher would quickly help you correct. Self-taught learning can be very satisfying, but it risks leading you up blind alleys and learning bad technique that might take a great deal of time to correct.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony
Writing from Paris until 15 May, 2014

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#1933954 - 07/29/12 04:20 AM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: Derulux]
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1370
Loc: Cameron Park, California
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
I was talking to a friend who's studying aerospace engineering. He said that when solving complex fluid dynamics problems using computer programs, they first do an analysis as to what will take less time: the time required for the current software + hardware to complete the calculations, or the time required to wait for the next generation of computational software to be developed + the time required for this next-gen software to do the computations.

It's probably similar to your situation - what will be faster, working on these pieces now? Or playing pieces that suit your level better, slowly improving, and then tackling these advanced pieces later on?

The better solution (in terms of piano) is to be patient and wait. Learn pieces that are more suitable for your current technique, and do exercises to improve (scales, octaves, arpeggios, studies, etc). Because maybe the following will happen: you'll spend 2 years improving your ability to play the piano, and then you'll learn both pieces within the span of 2 months. This is a far better solution than hoping that 2 years of work on the same piece (I can't even imagine committing that much time to either piece) will lead it to being performance-ready.


Exactly what I was going to say (minus the aerospace analogy, of course).


Same here (except I totally was thinking the aerospace analogy too wink )

For what it's worth, I personally think Liebestraum no. 3 over a Chopin etude from a [subjective] difficulty standpoint, but would put aside both (of course just temporarily) for reasons discussed above

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#1933955 - 07/29/12 04:41 AM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: jordyzzz]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa

The OP chappie/ess is new to classical music but is a “pop and beginner jazz pianist ( 3 years)” and has a couple of dream compositions on a ‘wannabe’ list.

A brief clue to the 2 works ... most beginners like to get the 5 pages of
Liszt’s Liebestraum no. 3 (Dreams of Love) under their belts ...
however Chopin’s Fantaisie Impromptu is strictly for BIG BOYS.

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#1933995 - 07/29/12 07:11 AM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: jordyzzz]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Invest in a good teacher. Hopefully, among other things, they'll teach you to stop with the hands in your lap thing. I can't recommend either of your choices. I CAN recommend you get yourself a good teacher, however. I can't recommend you a warmup piece, but I CAN recommend you get yourself a good teacher.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1934034 - 07/29/12 08:08 AM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: Bobpickle]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5067
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Bobpickle
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
I was talking to a friend who's studying aerospace engineering. He said that when solving complex fluid dynamics problems using computer programs, they first do an analysis as to what will take less time: the time required for the current software + hardware to complete the calculations, or the time required to wait for the next generation of computational software to be developed + the time required for this next-gen software to do the computations.

It's probably similar to your situation - what will be faster, working on these pieces now? Or playing pieces that suit your level better, slowly improving, and then tackling these advanced pieces later on?

The better solution (in terms of piano) is to be patient and wait. Learn pieces that are more suitable for your current technique, and do exercises to improve (scales, octaves, arpeggios, studies, etc). Because maybe the following will happen: you'll spend 2 years improving your ability to play the piano, and then you'll learn both pieces within the span of 2 months. This is a far better solution than hoping that 2 years of work on the same piece (I can't even imagine committing that much time to either piece) will lead it to being performance-ready.


Exactly what I was going to say (minus the aerospace analogy, of course).


Same here (except I totally was thinking the aerospace analogy too wink )

For what it's worth, I personally think Liebestraum no. 3 over a Chopin etude from a [subjective] difficulty standpoint, but would put aside both (of course just temporarily) for reasons discussed above


HAHAHA laugh

I like Liebestraume, but there are those two passages that are quite difficult. Some of the etudes are not as bad. But I think the advice stands, to wait until he's ready to learn them, aerospace or not. wink
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#1934051 - 07/29/12 08:33 AM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: stores]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4158
Originally Posted By: stores
Invest in a good teacher. Hopefully, among other things, they'll teach you to stop with the hands in your lap thing. I can't recommend either of your choices. I CAN recommend you get yourself a good teacher, however. I can't recommend you a warmup piece, but I CAN recommend you get yourself a good teacher.


I think stores forgot to tell you that you should get a good teacher.
_________________________
To each his own.

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#1934775 - 07/30/12 03:12 PM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: Derulux]
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1370
Loc: Cameron Park, California
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: Bobpickle
For what it's worth, I personally think Liebestraum no. 3 over a Chopin etude from a [subjective] difficulty standpoint, but would put aside both (of course just temporarily) for reasons discussed above


HAHAHA laugh

I like Liebestraume, but there are those two passages that are quite difficult. Some of the etudes are not as bad. But I think the advice stands, to wait until he's ready to learn them, aerospace or not. wink


lol yea the other night after posting I went and re-listened to both and they both sounded equally arduous blush

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#1934826 - 07/30/12 04:41 PM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: Bobpickle]
PianogrlNW Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/22/11
Posts: 299
Loc: Seattle, WA
You might be interested in Gershwin Prelude #2. It has some jazz elements and is fun to play - and the best part - it won't take you 2 years to learn. You seem very musical. Check it out.

_________________________



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#1935198 - 07/31/12 09:33 AM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: jordyzzz]
jordyzzz Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/24/12
Posts: 9
well i also think about getting a good teacher, but teachers here are expensive, and there's not much great teacher here..
i'm looking forward to study on musical institute, but only after i finished my major on computer science laugh
based on your opinion, i'm not gonna study it for the next 2 years or so, but i'm gonna study this (your recommendation):
1. Chopin's 3rd prelude in G Major
2. Gershwin Prelude #2

right now i'm studying hanon (all 3 parts, part 1 done, part 2 in progress).. am i on the right track?
i'm also looking to learn these studies =
1. Duvernoy school of mechanism
2. Czerny's school of velocity
is it good if i learn those studies??
_________________________
pop and beginner jazz pianist, played for 3 years.. now trying classical music..

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#1935633 - 08/01/12 03:49 AM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: jordyzzz]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: jordyzzz
well i also think about getting a good teacher, but teachers here are expensive, and there's not much great teacher here..


Where is here?
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1935692 - 08/01/12 08:04 AM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: jordyzzz]
jordyzzz Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/24/12
Posts: 9
Indonesia, but not in Jakarta (where there are lots of great teachers there..)
_________________________
pop and beginner jazz pianist, played for 3 years.. now trying classical music..

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#1935699 - 08/01/12 08:13 AM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: jordyzzz]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: jordyzzz
well i also think about getting a good teacher, but teachers here are expensive, and there's not much great teacher here..
i'm looking forward to study on musical institute, but only after i finished my major on computer science laugh
based on your opinion, i'm not gonna study it for the next 2 years or so, but i'm gonna study this (your recommendation):
1. Chopin's 3rd prelude in G Major
2. Gershwin Prelude #2

right now i'm studying hanon (all 3 parts, part 1 done, part 2 in progress).. am i on the right track?
i'm also looking to learn these studies =
1. Duvernoy school of mechanism
2. Czerny's school of velocity
is it good if i learn those studies??
Your post shows the disadvantage of not having a teacher. Although there is nothing wrong with the two pieces you mentioned(although the Prelude is ridiculously hard), it seems like out of the thousands of possible pieces you chose these only because two anonymous posters recommended them. Then you add a list with huge number of studies that are musically vapid and probably not worth the time for someone with limited practice time. IMO you should spend most of your time playing high quality music by the greatest composers.

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#1935999 - 08/01/12 07:08 PM Re: Learning one of these 2 pieces in 2 years. Realistic or not? [Re: jordyzzz]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Can I make a suggestion? If you're not going to / are unable to get a teacher, and want to improve, buy some music books. Collections of preludes / etudes by great composers. Bach preludes, inventions etc. Choping Mazurkas. Expand your repertoire this way, rather than choosing individual famous pieces. This way you will develop a more rounded technique, and also discover some music you might not otherwise have discovered. Much better to have a selection of easier, but still great, pieces under your belt, than one slightly longer but much, much harder one. You'll have a varied program then, and a much greater understanding of music.

Make sure you check out the books first, either on imslp or if you have a good music bookshop, in the shop.

Focusing too much on a narrow goal will be counter productive in the long run.
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

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