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#1932834 - 07/26/12 06:53 PM Re: Here's an Eye-Opener [Re: Plowboy]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19642
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Plowboy
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
There have been many threads at PW on pricing in the piano industry. They clearly explain why acoustic pianos cannot be priced like cars, toasters, or even digital pianos. The huge number of variables that go into the price of an acoustic piano is also explained in The Piano Buyer.


Then why can Steinway do it?
Probably because their selling prices involve a markup much more than other makers can afford to charge. Can you imagine how many(inset any other make)pianos would be sold if the dealers charged full SMP(or very close to it)?


Edited by pianoloverus (07/26/12 06:57 PM)

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#1932839 - 07/26/12 06:59 PM Re: Here's an Eye-Opener [Re: dsch]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1543
Loc: Danville, California
Originally Posted By: dsch
Originally Posted By: Furtwangler
The top 2% of income earners in this country earn over $250,000 per year. So you think someone who earns, say $150k per year cannot afford a new piano?


For individuals, it's about half of that. And yes, those are about the only people who can get tier 1 or tier 2 new, comfortably.

Where I work (about 2000 people) only the provost and the president are in the over $100K range. I don't know anyone personally who can truly afford a tier 1 piano.

[If so - why do I see so many new $60k cars on the road?]

They are almost always leased. I think it's very risky but that's my opinion.

[Your logic escapes me. Sorry.]

You must be living in an area where incomes are bloated. I don't. Almost everyone I know and work with (STEM professionals with MS or Ph.D) is in the $20K-$60K range.



Sorry - I am not buying it.

There are several Tier 2 instruments that can be purchased for way under $50k.

High School principals make $125-150k

RNs make over $100k

Pharmacists make over $100k

20% of new cars are leased vs purchased - not "almost always"

In Florida you have over 7,000 state employees making over $100k in salary

The head of the FL state Board of Education makes $509,999


Pianos are expensive, yes. They are a luxury item, indeed. Nobody will die for not having a grand piano. But they are not destined for only the rich.

In my very humble opinion, of course.

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#1932877 - 07/26/12 09:25 PM Re: Here's an Eye-Opener [Re: Furtwangler]
Derulux Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5376
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Plowboy
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
There have been many threads at PW on pricing in the piano industry. They clearly explain why acoustic pianos cannot be priced like cars, toasters, or even digital pianos. The huge number of variables that go into the price of an acoustic piano is also explained in The Piano Buyer.


Then why can Steinway do it?

For the same reason Ferrari can. wink


Originally Posted By: Furtwangler
Originally Posted By: dsch
Originally Posted By: Furtwangler
The top 2% of income earners in this country earn over $250,000 per year. So you think someone who earns, say $150k per year cannot afford a new piano?


For individuals, it's about half of that. And yes, those are about the only people who can get tier 1 or tier 2 new, comfortably.

Where I work (about 2000 people) only the provost and the president are in the over $100K range. I don't know anyone personally who can truly afford a tier 1 piano.

[If so - why do I see so many new $60k cars on the road?]

They are almost always leased. I think it's very risky but that's my opinion.

[Your logic escapes me. Sorry.]

You must be living in an area where incomes are bloated. I don't. Almost everyone I know and work with (STEM professionals with MS or Ph.D) is in the $20K-$60K range.



High School principals make $125-150k

RNs make over $100k

Pharmacists make over $100k

20% of new cars are leased vs purchased - not "almost always"

In Florida you have over 7,000 state employees making over $100k in salary

The head of the FL state Board of Education makes $509,999


Pianos are expensive, yes. They are a luxury item, indeed. Nobody will die for not having a grand piano. But they are not destined for only the rich.

In my very humble opinion, of course.

Of course, you do realize there are approximately 151 million people able to work in the US, which means that there are just over 3 million people in the top 2%. Let's look at some numbers (I am not judging, just stating facts people may not be aware of.. these have all been researched and are accurate unless otherwise indicated.)

First, out of the 3 million people in the top 2%, one out of every 1,500 people would have to buy a grand piano to sell off the Steinway brand (numbers below). Or, put another way, about one half of one percent of the available "top 2%" consumer base. So, this is certainly a reasonable figure.

Steinway sold 2,013 grand pianos last year (from their annual report). Let's assume for the sake of argument, that the average selling price (not listed anywhere I researched) was half the top-end of $137,400. That puts the average at around $68k. I think this is a reasonable estimate.

If Steinway makes just 30% on its top-end pianos (relatively low for an elite top-end luxury good, which Steinway considers its pianos, but the number is consistent with the gross margin figure in their annual report so I'll use it), they made approximately $41 MILLION dollars on the Steinway Grand Piano brand alone in 2011.

To further the point, and I know I'm getting long-winded, so I'll do my best to be brief: From Steinway's own annual report, they state that the vast majority of their Steinway brand pianos go to customers over age 50, who hold graduate degrees and report income over $300k per year. (This puts them in the top 1%, an even more elite category than the top 2%.)

Finally, from the 2010 US Census data:
-The average US salary is $41,673.83.
-The average US house is valued at $167,500
-The average US mortgage is $1295 per month


So, my conclusion here would be that there is absolutely no way for the average American to ever afford a Steinway grand piano. In point of fact, we can place all Tier 1 pianos in this category of being entirely unaffordable.

Even Tier 2 pianos are likely out of reach for the average American family, but I did not research many numbers to support this guess.. I am simply assuming based on the average US salary that the average American cannot afford another "car" sized purchase. But we can probably analyze that, too, if you're interested.

Okay, I have talked too much. smile
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#1932883 - 07/26/12 09:49 PM Re: Here's an Eye-Opener [Re: Steve Cohen]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1543
Loc: Danville, California
First of all, who said anything about Steinway??

Secondly, Steinway did not sell 2,013 grand pianos in the U.S. last year. That figure represents their grand piano sales worldwide. Worldwide - and how many people is that now - 7 Billion or so?

Thirdly, Steinway Musical Instruments, Inc made a total net profit in FY 2011 of
just $1,630,000 - all products, all locations - worldwide.

Lastly, Steinway pianos are not meant for the "average" American family, just as Mercedes Benz vehicles are not meant for the "average" family, nor are other luxury goods. Luxury goods.

I repeat - there are several so-called Tier 2 pianos that, purchased brand new, can be acquired for significantly less than $50k - and yes, that is significantly less than a new Steinway. And yes, that is a lot of money for not only the "average" family, but just about every family.

A Steinway is a luxury good. It is marketed as such, and marketed well, I might add.

Now I am finished playing financial analyst and will retire to the kitchen for a delicious PB&J (the wife is out this evening).

Wish you could join me. It is a lovely evening here.

In my humble opinion, that is.

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#1932915 - 07/26/12 11:56 PM Re: Here's an Eye-Opener [Re: Furtwangler]
Derulux Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5376
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Furtwangler
First of all, who said anything about Steinway??

Secondly, Steinway did not sell 2,013 grand pianos in the U.S. last year. That figure represents their grand piano sales worldwide. Worldwide - and how many people is that now - 7 Billion or so?

Thirdly, Steinway Musical Instruments, Inc made a total net profit in FY 2011 of
just $1,630,000 - all products, all locations - worldwide.

Lastly, Steinway pianos are not meant for the "average" American family, just as Mercedes Benz vehicles are not meant for the "average" family, nor are other luxury goods. Luxury goods.

I repeat - there are several so-called Tier 2 pianos that, purchased brand new, can be acquired for significantly less than $50k - and yes, that is significantly less than a new Steinway. And yes, that is a lot of money for not only the "average" family, but just about every family.

A Steinway is a luxury good. It is marketed as such, and marketed well, I might add.

Now I am finished playing financial analyst and will retire to the kitchen for a delicious PB&J (the wife is out this evening).

Wish you could join me. It is a lovely evening here.

In my humble opinion, that is.


I wish I could say I selected Steinway because it was the most recognizable brand, or the highest selling. I didn't. I chose it because it was the subject of another reply and it filtered over.. LOL Still, I think it is an accurate representation of a Tier 1 piano.

You are correct, the 2,013 is a worldwide number, which makes my argument even stronger. Thank you for pointing it out.. it slipped my mind in the middle of number crunching! smile

Steinway's net INCOME of $1.6M is very different than their Gross PROFIT of $105M. Corporations pay taxes on income, not profit, so they try to show as little income as possible. That is why I used their profit statement, and not their income statement.

I suppose my two major contentions were:
1) The average American family cannot afford a purchase of $10k, let alone "$50k or less"
2) The salary estimates for US employees (especially as representing any kind of average) were way off

If we were to extrapolate meaning, I might suggest:
3) The idea that pianos are anything except overpriced is, perhaps, misguided
4) Pianos, especially grand pianos, are a luxury item destined only for the rich
5) If classical music expects to survive well into the future, it needs to find a way to make itself more affordable for the average family to bring it into their homes

5a) I can get a decent Xbox on eBay for less than $300. I'm not saying an Xbox is better than classical music.. what I am saying is that it is more readily available to the masses who do not have high income, and who cannot afford luxury goods like a piano, but still want some form of entertainment.

However, I did not want to drag the thread into any new directions, so I stuck only to the facts, and hoped other people would be more interested in interpreting them whichever way suited them best. smile

PS- I wish I could get me some PB&J right about now. But it's a long drive to California.. :P
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#1932989 - 07/27/12 04:43 AM Re: Here's an Eye-Opener [Re: Derulux]
SirHuddlestonFudd Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/08/12
Posts: 96
Loc: Cambridge, MA
I wonder: of all the posters on this thread who argue that, in effect, grand pianos are not unaffordable, how many -- have grand pianos?

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#1933080 - 07/27/12 09:44 AM Re: Here's an Eye-Opener [Re: SirHuddlestonFudd]
Cmajor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/03/11
Posts: 229
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: SirHuddlestonFudd
Here's a question though: I've noticed that the price for digital pianos is much lower online than in stores. Makes sense, less overhead, etc. Does one negotiate the price of a DP (I know, I know, it's not a piano, it's just that they're selling them next to the real pianos) the same as an acoustic?

(That said, I'm asking all this not because I want a DP, but because I want an acoustic, in case anybody wanted to educate me on that point.)


In a way you can. When I purchased my DP about 18 months ago, I shopped locally and on line. Most of the on line dealers had "meet or beat" policies. I simply found the lowest price, downloaded the ad, and sent it to the merchant I actually bought from. They honored the price and even took a few more bucks off the price. The DP arrived a week later in perfect condition as the packaging was excellent. In the end, I saved almost $500, which, percentage wise was excellent.

There is even one on line retailer that offers customers a "play now, pay later" option whereby you can put 25% on your CC and they put another 25% on the card each month for 3 months.


Edited by Cmajor (07/27/12 09:45 AM)

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#1933091 - 07/27/12 10:19 AM Re: Here's an Eye-Opener [Re: Derulux]
Ataru074 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 390
Loc: Houston, TX
Originally Posted By: Derulux

4) Pianos, especially grand pianos, are a luxury item destined only for the rich
5) If classical music expects to survive well into the future, it needs to find a way to make itself more affordable for the average family to bring it into their homes

5a) I can get a decent Xbox on eBay for less than $300. I'm not saying an Xbox is better than classical music.. what I am saying is that it is more readily available to the masses who do not have high income, and who cannot afford luxury goods like a piano, but still want some form of entertainment.


4) that is a little stretched comment. you can say the same for a house... you can fit a family of 3 in a 2 bedroom apartment. is a matter of priorities. the average american wants a house with the yard. than he tries to get the pool to distinguish himself, that cost (during the years) way more than a tier 2 piano. or let's talk about leasing a nice beemer instead of owning a corolla and a bosendorfer.

for the average american income a tier 1 or 2 piano is possible but has to be a choice.

the rich measure use yachts and planes as measure stick... pianos, mansions and cars are "given".

5 and 5a) Classical music did survive in the past 600 years and will survive in the future because Beethoven, Bach, Brahms, Mozart, Schumann, Schubert and all the other are de facto immortals. In the same way the art of Michelangelo survived. I hope the time will consign to oblivion Justin biebers and rhianna.

the xbox as "entertainment" has nothing to do with "classical" music. people makes choices. you can play a videogame as well you can play "card"... or read a book, listen a concerto or go for a walk. the last one is totally free, you can enjoy the glory of nature and good for your health... way better than become obese playing the xbox.

the bottom line, a tier one piano is affordable for MOST people, is just a matter of priorities.
_________________________
===============================================
working on:
Brahms: Op 118
Mozart: Kv330
Beethoven: Op 14 #2
===============================================

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#1933114 - 07/27/12 11:20 AM Re: Here's an Eye-Opener [Re: Ataru074]
Cmajor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/03/11
Posts: 229
Loc: USA


the bottom line, a tier one piano is affordable for MOST people, is just a matter of priorities. [/quote]

Amen to that. Life is all about choices and priorities with the latter always changing with time. How we spend any disposable income we may have is a matter of personal priorities. As you point out, some prefer the Beemer while others would prefer to have a piano in their home. The very fortunate amongst us can do both.

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#1933121 - 07/27/12 11:41 AM Re: Here's an Eye-Opener [Re: Steve Cohen]
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14265
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
I repeat - there are several so-called Tier 2 pianos that, purchased brand new, can be acquired for significantly less


Yer speaking the truth.

By the way, even involving "tier 1" pianos.

You just have to find right dealer and make your deal.

Kevin, you're reading out there?

Norbert smirk


Edited by Norbert (07/27/12 09:25 PM)
_________________________
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Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1933266 - 07/27/12 05:05 PM Re: Here's an Eye-Opener [Re: AJF]
allthumbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 115
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: AJF
[quote=Zac Forbes]
Many people I encounter in 2012 seem to view the word ART as a four letter word and view artistically motivated things as pretentious and elitist. It's a real shame because ironically it's the opposite. True art de-emphasises the ARTIST and draws the listener's/viewer's attention to the actual piece of ART (ie. the music in this case) which in turn allows the 'beholder' to TAKE something personal away for themselves.
To my eyes and ears much of the 'mainstream' music being pumped out these days (especially the stuff being marketed to the 12-18 y/o demographic) is all about the ARTIST not the ART (if you could even call it that) It's so much about the PERSON making the music that the music seems secondary.
I get that kids need role models. I also think that kids need to be shown how to close their eyes and LISTEN and FEEL and EXPERIENCE things in a PERSONAL way. This is what art intends to do (sometimes) and this is NOT what modern mainstream music intends to do (most of the time) IMO.
So when bombarded with images of Justin Bieber and Lada Gaga with their million dollar stages full of pyrotechnics and writhing backup dancers how can you expect anyone to appreciate the subtle magic of the piano? Unless of course someone is able to appeal to their senses in a way that says 'there are far deeper levels of gratification available to you if you're just willing to put in a little bit of effort of your own.' Then they might see that all those bright lights, sexy dancers and LOUD rhythmically flaccid 4/4 bass booms don't really go very deep into their soul -- and that in turn will create a NEED for something more, or at least something contrasting. There's nothing wrong with Justin Bieber and Lady Gaga. It's exactly what it intends to be and does a great and efficient job achieving its own goals. But there IS something very wrong with thinking that THAT form of entertainment is motivated by the same purpose as ART (in its aforementioned definition).


Hi AJF

Boy, you are right on the money with this post. Many of today’s ‘artists’ are not musicians. Without the fancy stage productions, dance steps and pyrotechnics what are you left with? I would even venture to say, strip the music background away and you’d probably find that their singing voice isn’t that good either not to mention the lyrics.

I wish we still had Roy Orbison…

allthumbs


Edited by allthumbs (07/27/12 05:08 PM)
_________________________
Sauter Delta (185cm) polished ebony 'Lucy'
Serial # 118 562

Single Malts Forever!

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#1933293 - 07/27/12 05:48 PM Re: Here's an Eye-Opener [Re: Ataru074]
Derulux Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5376
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Ataru074
Originally Posted By: Derulux

4) Pianos, especially grand pianos, are a luxury item destined only for the rich
5) If classical music expects to survive well into the future, it needs to find a way to make itself more affordable for the average family to bring it into their homes

5a) I can get a decent Xbox on eBay for less than $300. I'm not saying an Xbox is better than classical music.. what I am saying is that it is more readily available to the masses who do not have high income, and who cannot afford luxury goods like a piano, but still want some form of entertainment.


4) that is a little stretched comment. you can say the same for a house... you can fit a family of 3 in a 2 bedroom apartment. is a matter of priorities. the average american wants a house with the yard. than he tries to get the pool to distinguish himself, that cost (during the years) way more than a tier 2 piano. or let's talk about leasing a nice beemer instead of owning a corolla and a bosendorfer.

for the average american income a tier 1 or 2 piano is possible but has to be a choice.

the rich measure use yachts and planes as measure stick... pianos, mansions and cars are "given".

5 and 5a) Classical music did survive in the past 600 years and will survive in the future because Beethoven, Bach, Brahms, Mozart, Schumann, Schubert and all the other are de facto immortals. In the same way the art of Michelangelo survived. I hope the time will consign to oblivion Justin biebers and rhianna.

the xbox as "entertainment" has nothing to do with "classical" music. people makes choices. you can play a videogame as well you can play "card"... or read a book, listen a concerto or go for a walk. the last one is totally free, you can enjoy the glory of nature and good for your health... way better than become obese playing the xbox.

the bottom line, a tier one piano is affordable for MOST people, is just a matter of priorities.


With regard to the Xbox vs classical music, I say only that people certainly enjoy being entertained (listening to music), but younger generations are being thus entertained by artists who are still alive. Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach are all dead and not producing anything new. Further, most people get an Xbox because they like to entertain themselves. They like the act of doing. But doing is not cost-effective in the world of classical music, unless you get a honky-tonker of an instrument. The top of the line Xbox costs much less than the top of the line piano. The rest, as you say, is your opinion and I respect it. smile

I would like to go back and look at number 4 a little, because I think the data points are a little skewed. I must say, I do not know what a "Tier 2" piano costs, but I am going to guess somewhere around $50-85k, with "Tier 1" being above that. (This is an honest guess.. if I am wrong, please correct me.)

We talk about families making choices between an above ground pool (approx $5k installed), and a "Tier 2" piano ($50-85k). Even an in-ground pool can be purchased for around $20k installed. That's still less than 25% of the cost of a "Tier 2" piano.

Let's talk about leasing a "beemer" vs buying a Corolla.
Cost to lease a BMW 328i convertible $459/mo. Let's ignore that for the average middle class income, this would amount to nearly 1/5 of that person's take home pay.. WAY too much for a car. But I digress.

Let's look at the Corolla/Bosendorfer cost...
New Corolla: approx $16k
New Bosendorfer (and let's only use a 6'1" to keep the cost down): $105k

Per month, that's $173.64 for the Corolla on a ten year loan with 20% down, and $596.18 on a THIRTY year loan (which I think is about 6x what any retailer would be willing to work with, but again I could be wrong here, too) with 20% down for the Bosendorfer. Total cost: $769.82/mo.

That's nearly double the BMW.

Let's also ignore the fact that 20% down on a Bosendorfer/Corolla combo comes to approximately $25,000 or more than half the salary of the average American.


Since the hard facts of cash don't seem to be resonating much with anyone, I would like to hammer out a couple more to see what people think about them:

Average American Salary: $41,673.83
Average Monthly Take-home pay: $2,639.29
(Let's double it to make it a family): $5,278.58
Average mortgage: $1295
Average monthly food costs for a family of four: $771.10 (sounds high, but put another way, this is only $2.14 per meal)
Average car lease/loan: $378.00
Remember, two adults = two cars: $378.00 again
Average 401k contribution: $358.94 (x2) (gotta save for retirement)
Average College Savings Requirement: $623 per kid per month if the kid is < 1 yrs old

Let's stop there and see how much money this family has left: $492.60 per month.

What they're paying for is the average American house, the average cars so they can get to/from work and get their kids where they need to go, average food costs so they don't die of starvation, average savings so they can retire before they die, and the average amount needed to pay their children's eventual college tuition. I've left out property taxes, activities, appliances, furniture, entertainment (like going to McDonald's for dinner), vacations to the town pool, misc appliance breakdowns (washer, dryer, dishwasher, microwave, stove, refrigerator.. you name it, they break). We're not talking about freeloaders, bank-breakers, over-spenders or priority-lacking people here. We're talking about the average American family's income vs expenses.

So, now I ask: how can this family afford to save enough money to even put ANY money down on a Bosendorfer (the brand introduced along with the Toyota Corolla), let alone be able to pay off the monthly payments?
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#1933348 - 07/27/12 07:18 PM Re: Here's an Eye-Opener [Re: Steve Cohen]
j&j Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 445
Loc: Southwest
Just my opinion since I'm not a piano dealer or piano technician. A Bosendorfer or a Hamburg Steinway or other Tier 1 piano in the 6 figures (after negotiation and discounts from SMP) is not designed or marketed for the average American family with growing kids, a mortgage, and car payments. There are more affordable acoustic piano options out there on which children can practice and learn, families can enjoy, and folks like myself can own while I go back and study piano.

The reality is, for the vast majority of people that play piano, their playing doesn't require a Bosendorfer Imperial.
The great news is, there is a wonderful selection of new and used pianos that don't require a 2nd mortgage or selling your first born. It may not be an S&S but I'm thrilled with my piano.
_________________________
J & J
Yahama C3 PE
Casio Privia PX-330
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working." Pablo Picasso

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#1933391 - 07/27/12 09:22 PM Re: Here's an Eye-Opener [Re: Steve Cohen]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1974
Loc: Philadelphia area
Derulux, everything your saying is right on. I can only say that $300.00 plus games and extra equiptment vs. a piano; You get what you pay for.

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#1933396 - 07/27/12 09:31 PM Re: Here's an Eye-Opener [Re: j&j]
rlinkt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 320
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: j&j
It may not be an S&S but I'm thrilled with my piano.

I probably have no taste. My budget was a fraction of the numbers being discussed here, and I got a small grand that my daughter is thrilled with.

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#1933473 - 07/28/12 03:06 AM Re: Here's an Eye-Opener [Re: Norbert]
allthumbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 115
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Quote:
I repeat - there are several so-called Tier 2 pianos that, purchased brand new, can be acquired for significantly less


Yer speaking the truth.

By the way, even involving "tier 1" pianos.

You just have to find right dealer and make your deal.

Kevin, you're reading out there?

Norbert smirk


LOL - I started reading another thread earlier in the day and commented on the great deal I got from you! hahaha

Do you have ESP?

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1933249/Re:%20Piano%20Shows?.html#Post1933249



Edited by allthumbs (07/28/12 03:16 AM)
_________________________
Sauter Delta (185cm) polished ebony 'Lucy'
Serial # 118 562

Single Malts Forever!

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#1933500 - 07/28/12 07:10 AM Re: Here's an Eye-Opener [Re: Dave B]
Rich Galassini Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/28/01
Posts: 9398
Loc: Philadelphia/South Jersey
Originally Posted By: Dave B
Derulux, everything your saying is right on. I can only say that $300.00 plus games and extra equiptment vs. a piano; You get what you pay for.


Dave,

So true.
_________________________
Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Co.
Phila, Pa.
Dir. Line (215) 991-0834
rich@cunninghampiano.com
www.cunninghampiano.com

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#1933543 - 07/28/12 10:50 AM Re: Here's an Eye-Opener [Re: rlinkt]
j&j Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 445
Loc: Southwest
Rlinkt - I may have missed your post but what small grand did you buy for your daughter? It's wonderful that she's thrilled with it and congratulations! Post some pictures if you haven't already. If you did, I just haven't kept up. Too bad I have to frequently work weekends. Sure cuts into my practice and Forum time, but it does pay for my plebian piano tastes.
_________________________
J & J
Yahama C3 PE
Casio Privia PX-330
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working." Pablo Picasso

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#1933585 - 07/28/12 12:34 PM Re: Here's an Eye-Opener [Re: Steve Cohen]
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14265
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
Originally Posted By: j&j
It may not be an S&S but I'm thrilled with my piano.


Anybody is entitled to be "thrilled" with his/her piano.

That this is possible in today's market at much lower costs than only 10 years ago, may be a sign of the times.

Plus an opportunity for cash poor musicians.

We've gone through this cycle already 40 years ago, same's happening again today.

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (07/28/12 03:11 PM)
_________________________
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Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1933599 - 07/28/12 01:19 PM Re: Here's an Eye-Opener [Re: Rich Galassini]
Derulux Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5376
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Rich Galassini
Originally Posted By: Dave B
Derulux, everything your saying is right on. I can only say that $300.00 plus games and extra equiptment vs. a piano; You get what you pay for.


Dave,

So true.


Oh yeah, I completely agree with both of you. I think the piano is worth the investment, but the caveat I have been holding my statements to is: "if you can afford it."

Now, there are pianos that most American families can afford, but they are certainly not "Tier 1" or even "Tier 2" pianos, as has been suggested. I merely hoped to point out facts and statistics that lend to the impression that classical music is "for the rich and famous", or at least, that is the stigma it has with many youngsters (particularly in poorer neighborhoods). And with the price of equipment, in this thread, a piano, it is not surprising to hear that resultant opinion being shared. What is surprising is to hear someone say, "Oh yeah, anybody can afford a Bosendorfer. It's not just for the rich." When, in fact, a Bosendorfer costs as much as a house for most American families. smile
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#1933708 - 07/28/12 06:10 PM Re: Here's an Eye-Opener [Re: j&j]
rlinkt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 320
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: j&j
Rlinkt - I may have missed your post but what small grand did you buy for your daughter? It's wonderful that she's thrilled with it and congratulations! Post some pictures if you haven't already. If you did, I just haven't kept up. Too bad I have to frequently work weekends. Sure cuts into my practice and Forum time, but it does pay for my plebian piano tastes.


No -- I haven't had a chance to post pictures yet. I am planning to do so this weekend, and a bit about my buying experience as well.

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