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#1935522 - 07/31/12 09:57 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Piano World]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3876
I stand by my comment - Kids would be better off learning on new pianos than struggling with the 100 year old uprights, 70 year old Lester spinets, 50 year old Winter spinets, and the lovely Aeolian stencil's. Toss them all out, and buy new acoustic. Piano stores should unite to make this happen, in my opinion.
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#1935533 - 07/31/12 10:20 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Bob]
Jonathan Alford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 359
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Bob
I stand by my comment - Kids would be better off learning on new pianos than struggling with the 100 year old uprights, 70 year old Lester spinets, 50 year old Winter spinets, and the lovely Aeolian stencil's. Toss them all out, and buy new acoustic. Piano stores should unite to make this happen, in my opinion.


While I agree with this premise, how can piano stores unite to make this happen for a family of 4 living on 30k / year just scraping by? They won't stay in business long giving pianos away.

I learned many years ago on a beat up (I probably participated in some of the beatings myself) old upright. I never remembered a tech coming by. I did learn to love and appreciate piano music and approx 15 years ago I was able to purchase my first grand. Then late last year I was able to upgrade my grand.

If I followed your "rules - (my word not yours)," I never would have learned since there is no way our family could have purchased a new piano. (The old one was passed down from my grand parents.)

Jonathan

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#1935544 - 07/31/12 10:49 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Tribbs]
Little_Blue_Engine Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 1233
Loc: Ohio, US
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
Originally Posted By: thetandyman
This video reminded me of the films of decent cars being destroyed by the "Cash for Clunkers" program. I saw late model Jaguars, Suburbans, Cadillacs being run until their engines were frozen , never to run again. [...]


... which caused the price of remaining used vehicles to rise (supply/demand) which in turn makes the relative price of a "new" vehicle seem more attractive. Toss in new car incentives and it becomes a boon to manufacturers.

Unfortunately the demand for used pianos is nowhere near the demand for used personal transportation.
If something doesn't work and isn't usable at some point its time to retire it but most of those cars were just fine. The government was just willing to pay more to get them off the street than their retail value was at the time. They weren't interested in truly getting rid of the unusable junk or they would not have put an age cut off in the program. The relative price of a new vehicle being more attractive doesn't matter if the customer can't come up with the money. As somebody who is only steps above being a bottom feeder in the car market cash for clunkers did me no favors. I don't see me ever buying a new piano. If the pianos in the video were truly past their usefulness then they needed to go but any suggestions of simply getting rid of the old stock to drive sales of new is probably not going to help the business with the economy as it is.
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#1935577 - 08/01/12 12:20 AM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Bob]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Bob
I stand by my comment - Kids would be better off learning on new pianos than struggling with the 100 year old uprights, 70 year old Lester spinets, 50 year old Winter spinets, and the lovely Aeolian stencil's. Toss them all out, and buy new acoustic. Piano stores should unite to make this happen, in my opinion.

I agree, but piano stores can only do what the market is willing to (and able to) purchase. A piano store that relies on selling only Bosendorfer Imperials, and no one in their area happens to buy one, will go out of business. So, the store must cater to the market.

What may help most, and is within the control of most manufacturers, is if the manufacturers develop a way to make a more cost-effective instrument, particularly in today's economy.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#1935587 - 08/01/12 12:36 AM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Piano World]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1973
Loc: Philadelphia area
Way too many 1% wantabes

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#1935670 - 08/01/12 07:10 AM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Derulux]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3876
Originally Posted By: Derulux

What may help most, and is within the control of most manufacturers, is if the manufacturers develop a way to make a more cost-effective instrument, particularly in today's economy.


Unfortunately, they already do this. It's called the digital piano.
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#1935750 - 08/01/12 10:19 AM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Dave B]
Little_Blue_Engine Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/30/09
Posts: 1233
Loc: Ohio, US
Originally Posted By: Dave B
Way too many 1% wantabes
I would be happy simply being farther up within the 99%.
_________________________
I'll figure it out eventually.
Until then you may want to keep a safe distance.


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#1935780 - 08/01/12 11:28 AM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Piano World]
Colin Dunn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 488
Loc: Arvada, CO
Quote:

Kids would be better off learning on new pianos than struggling with the 100 year old uprights, 70 year old Lester spinets, 50 year old Winter spinets, and the lovely Aeolian stencil's. Toss them all out, and buy new acoustic. Piano stores should unite to make this happen, in my opinion.


I won't shed a tear for the 50- to 70-year-old spinets. The spinet action was a step backwards. I grew up practicing on a Kimball player spinet, the entry-level acoustic piano of the mid-1970s. Even as a beginner, I noticed that my piano teachers had better pianos (a 56" upright, a 9' concert grand). But my parents kept up that Kimball spinet, so it was still a serviceable instrument (and working player piano) after 25 years.

I can't agree about trashing ALL the 100-year-old uprights. The new market simply does not offer anything larger than a 52", and even those lack the kind of woodworking that was commonplace on early 20th century uprights. For the price of a new 52" upright, you can easily acquire a near-new grand piano. Except for Steinway, Mason & Hamlin, and Charles Walter, the American piano industry has closed up shop. The nicer of the American-made early 20th century uprights should be restored, not sent to a landfill.

I also have mixed feelings about trashing the "Aeolian stencils." They were low-end pianos, but if well-cared-for could still be decent to play on. The first grand piano I bought was a mid-1970s Aeolian 5' grand. The ones made in the 1970s are not falling-apart junk unless they were treated as such by their owners. Aeolian and Kimball baby grands, if kept up well, are the most bang for the buck on the used piano market right now. They just have low resale value due to the mediocre reputation of the brand names.
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#1935823 - 08/01/12 12:50 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Bob]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Bob
Originally Posted By: Derulux

What may help most, and is within the control of most manufacturers, is if the manufacturers develop a way to make a more cost-effective instrument, particularly in today's economy.


Unfortunately, they already do this. It's called the digital piano.


Haha laugh I laughed when I read this. Good point, sir. smile

I think, however, my premise was supposing quality acoustical grands at affordable prices. But digitals are certainly getting better and better.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#1935849 - 08/01/12 01:39 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Piano World]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19465
Loc: New York City
I think much of negative reaction about the video would not be there if the pianos hadn't been thrown from the truck. I'm not saying it would be practical to carefully roll them down a ramp, but I think the reactiom, at least mine, would be far less negative.


Edited by pianoloverus (08/01/12 02:32 PM)

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#1935858 - 08/01/12 02:08 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Derulux]
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3165
Originally Posted By: Derulux
But digitals are certainly getting better and better.


They really are. And a decent modern generation 88 semi-weighted keys digital is FAR superior to lousy worn-out acoustics, even those acoustics which are not quite yet landfill material.

The good news is that because the newer digitals are of decent playability, a lot of people are learning on them, and some are progressing as players to the degree that their interest is stoked for an acoustic, and not a junker either, or even a lower quality used one.

I have had several such students in recent years. One purchased a new mid-level Kawaii upright, another is saving for a good affordable new grand, such as a Hailun, and a few others are aware of the world of good acoustics, and time will tell. One is in college, and plans to get a good piano when graduating and settling down.

What is hopeful is that not one of these people want to upgrade to a better digital, even though what that have in most cases is not a top-of-the-line digital. Decent, but not the best. Instead, they all want an acoustic piano.

And perhaps because they are used to the digital always being in perfect tune, and in some cases running thru good monitor speakers, they probably will not settle for an out of tune acoustic, or one with a tubby bass or glaringly noticeable bridge breaks, or other ills. In other words, good news for good piano dealers.

The point I am making is that none of these people would be in the market for a better qualtiy acoustic as an upgrade if it were not for their entry into pianoland via an affordable digital. Because of their finances and/or living situations, none would have bought an acoustic as a starter.
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#1935868 - 08/01/12 02:33 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Piano World]
Rickster Offline


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8567
Loc: Georgia, USA
Great blues tune, Rocket88!! smile

Wish I could play like that! (Maybe one day smile )

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1935878 - 08/01/12 02:49 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Piano World]
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3165
Thanks!
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Music teacher and piano player.

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#1935910 - 08/01/12 03:56 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: rocket88]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3659
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Originally Posted By: rocket88
Originally Posted By: Derulux
But digitals are certainly getting better and better.


They really are. And a decent modern generation 88 semi-weighted keys digital is FAR superior to lousy worn-out acoustics, even those acoustics which are not quite yet landfill material.


Digitals will be dumped far sooner than most acoustics.

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Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

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Verhnjak Pianos Facebook


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#1935923 - 08/01/12 04:29 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Piano World]
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3165
One reason is that unlike acoustics, digitals are much easier to move!

ps...before anyone gets the wrong idea, I am NOT against acoustics! I have a nice one at home.
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Music teacher and piano player.

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#1935930 - 08/01/12 04:56 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: rocket88]
Rusty Fortysome Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/25/11
Posts: 194
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: rocket88
One reason is that unlike acoustics, digitals are much easier to move!

ps...before anyone gets the wrong idea, I am NOT against acoustics! I have a nice one at home.

DIGITAL PIANOS: easy to move, great beginner instruments, easy to keep in a smaller domicile, cheap (most of them) compared to acoustics, no real maintenance needed.

ACOUSTICS: sound awesome (if they have good sound)... nothing beats that pure power filling the room with REAL strings vibrating and resonating from the wood and bouncing off of everything. They are now prestige items, especially the grands. And they will work even when the power goes out and the world is circling the toilet.

There are pros and cons. An acoustic is becoming a musical yacht, particularly grand pianos above 6' long; they display money, space, refinement, and hopefully skill and understanding with a piano. Digitals will always display other qualities.

I'm sure digitals have and will dump by the myriad, since it is extremely easy to spill drinks in them, power surge blowout of electronic components, speakers go bad, connections inside grow frail, actions are useless after a few years of dedicated play, or any number of glitches afflict them and create press-wood n' plastic lumps sitting along the walls of unfortunate owners' homes.
_________________________
Currently working on/memorizing...
"It's You" from Robotech
"He's A Pirate"
"Crazy Bone Rag"
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#1935961 - 08/01/12 05:48 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Rusty Fortysome]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5321
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Rusty Fortysome
An acoustic is becoming a musical yacht, particularly grand pianos above 6' long; they display money, space, refinement, and hopefully skill and understanding with a piano.

PS- I completely agree with this sentiment, but I also hate this about pianos. I look at them for the music, not the prestige. But, I understand that most people (not necessarily you, Rusty smile ) do not think this way. I have never, ever, cared how "refined" someone looks owning a Bosendorfer Imperial. Sit down and play it.. then we'll talk. wink
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#1935967 - 08/01/12 05:55 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Piano World]
Bob Newbie Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 1549
The problem with digitals since they are electronic,after 5 yrs they are worthless(resale)
its treated like a PC..old technology..

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#1935970 - 08/01/12 05:55 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Derulux]
Rusty Fortysome Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/25/11
Posts: 194
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Derulux
... I have never, ever, cared how "refined" someone looks owning a Bosendorfer Imperial. Sit down and play it.. then we'll talk. wink


I feel that way too. If you own a piano worth $100,000 and can't play more than chopsticks... it's embarrassing. Unless perhaps that person hosts piano-nite every month at their house and they have that thing being used fairly regularly.
_________________________
Currently working on/memorizing...
"It's You" from Robotech
"He's A Pirate"
"Crazy Bone Rag"
"Claire DeLune (finally)"

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#1935976 - 08/01/12 06:15 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Piano World]
piette Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/12
Posts: 29
Loc: Durham, United Kingdom
I find this quite upsetting. I understand that there are some truly AWFUL old pianos which shouldn't get a second glance, but then there are the ones with a lot of potential! Watching this video reminded me of a novel which I read last year, 'The Piano Shop on the Left Bank' - I would highly recommend it to all! I would love to end up with an old workshop restoring nice old pianos to their former glory, much like one of the main characters in the aforementioned novel.
My own Erard 1840's concert grand is currently undergoing an £11000 restoration to make him as good as new! :-) I can't wait!

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#1935992 - 08/01/12 07:01 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Bob Newbie]
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3165
Originally Posted By: Bob Newbie
The problem with digitals since they are electronic,after 5 yrs they are worthless(resale)
its treated like a PC..old technology..


For some, yes you are right, for others, not always.

I bought a Roland RD700sx about 9 years ago, (pro quality stage piano) used it extensively for gigging, and sold it about 3 years ago for asking $1000.00, sell for $900. It was getting a bit worn and sloppy, but worked fine. At that price is sold almost instantly. (I Replaced it with its successor, the RD700gx, which is basically the same unit with some minor upgrades.)

The old Roland still had good value because the technology of higher qualtiy digitals has matured to the point that recent used ones sound and play about the same as new ones, i.e. decent, not like the old ones from the 90's that sound horrid, IMHO.

Also, a few years ago I wanted to buy a piano for use as a practice piano while on the road, when the Roland is out on the truck.

The Casio Privia (88 keys, semi-weighted action) fit the bill. The Privias were new at about $500 then, and on eBay the prices for used ones, 3-5 years old, were no lower than $300-$350.

BTW, the piano in the tune in the link below is the Roland:
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#1936000 - 08/01/12 07:09 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Piano World]
Rickster Offline


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8567
Loc: Georgia, USA
Rockett88, I have the Casio Privia 310... it was $599 at Guitar Center, and, you are right, used ones consistantly sell for $350 + on CL and eBay.

Of course, I've pounded the heck out of mine, along with my grand children... they call it the "funky piano". smile (Plus, it helps keep them off my acoustic pianos:-)

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1936016 - 08/01/12 07:50 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Rusty Fortysome]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19465
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Rusty Fortysome
Originally Posted By: Derulux
... I have never, ever, cared how "refined" someone looks owning a Bosendorfer Imperial. Sit down and play it.. then we'll talk. wink


I feel that way too. If you own a piano worth $100,000 and can't play more than chopsticks... it's embarrassing. Unless perhaps that person hosts piano-nite every month at their house and they have that thing being used fairly regularly.
I doubt it's embarrassing to many of the people you describe nor should it be.

There's nothing wrong with owning even the most expensive piano just for its appearance or the prestige or for the sound even if one is a beginner. I do think it's a shame that some people can't afford the piano they'd like to have. But this is far different from thinking that someone who can afford an expensive piano and buys one for whatever reason should be criticized.

At what skill level do you think owning an expensive piano, if one can afford it, becomes acceptable?

If one can't play a note one can always have a player system installed.

Posts like the ones I quoted above usually make me think the poster is just angry they can't afford something. Or envious. If one can afford any material item and doing so doesn't hurt anyone, I see no problem.


Edited by pianoloverus (08/01/12 08:12 PM)

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#1936025 - 08/01/12 08:19 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Rusty Fortysome]
Jonathan Alford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 359
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Rusty Fortysome
Originally Posted By: Derulux
... I have never, ever, cared how "refined" someone looks owning a Bosendorfer Imperial. Sit down and play it.. then we'll talk. wink


I feel that way too. If you own a piano worth $100,000 and can't play more than chopsticks... it's embarrassing. Unless perhaps that person hosts piano-nite every month at their house and they have that thing being used fairly regularly.


Based on this, I should have a 120 year old clunker that has never been tuned. Because I can afford something a little nicer than that I treat myself.

Jonathan

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#1936033 - 08/01/12 08:47 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: pianoloverus]
Rusty Fortysome Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/25/11
Posts: 194
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

Posts like the ones I quoted above usually make me think the poster is just angry they can't afford something. Or envious. If one can afford any material item and doing so doesn't hurt anyone, I see no problem.


Wrong. I have an opinion which you don't agree with, but you feel that's the reason to assume something. I could, though I won't prove it, at this moment walk into a piano dealership and buy a 6-figure piano without a blink of pain.

I would find it embarrassing to have such a piano in my possession at this time. Such pianos should be shown and played, and they should be played well, in my opinion. I'll get one when I feel it is appropriate for myself to have.

Conspicuous consumption is boorish.
_________________________
Currently working on/memorizing...
"It's You" from Robotech
"He's A Pirate"
"Crazy Bone Rag"
"Claire DeLune (finally)"

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#1936037 - 08/01/12 08:56 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Rusty Fortysome]
Jonathan Alford Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/11
Posts: 359
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Rusty Fortysome
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

Posts like the ones I quoted above usually make me think the poster is just angry they can't afford something. Or envious. If one can afford any material item and doing so doesn't hurt anyone, I see no problem.


Wrong. I have an opinion which you don't agree with, but you feel that's the reason to assume something. I could, though I won't prove it, at this moment walk into a piano dealership and buy a 6-figure piano without a blink of pain.

I would find it embarrassing to have such a piano in my possession at this time. Such pianos should be shown and played, and they should be played well, in my opinion. I'll get one when I feel it is appropriate for myself to have.

Conspicuous consumption is boorish.


Not questioning your ability to purchase such a piano, but if most consumers had the same opinion as you, piano dealers would all go out of business as only a few would be worthy of owning a nice instrument.

In your opinion, should consumers have to "audition" in order to purchase a certain piano?


Jonathan

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#1936043 - 08/01/12 09:18 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Rusty Fortysome]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19465
Loc: New York City
Double post


Edited by pianoloverus (08/01/12 09:37 PM)

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#1936045 - 08/01/12 09:27 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Rusty Fortysome]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19465
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Rusty Fortysome
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

Posts like the ones I quoted above usually make me think the poster is just angry they can't afford something. Or envious. If one can afford any material item and doing so doesn't hurt anyone, I see no problem.


Wrong. I have an opinion which you don't agree with, but you feel that's the reason to assume something. I could, though I won't prove it, at this moment walk into a piano dealership and buy a 6-figure piano without a blink of pain.

I would find it embarrassing to have such a piano in my possession at this time. Such pianos should be shown and played, and they should be played well, in my opinion. I'll get one when I feel it is appropriate for myself to have.

Conspicuous consumption is boorish.
In terms of your personal piano I see no problem with thinking that you must reach a certain level of ability to deserve a high level expensive piano. I don't agree with you but for your piano it's your decision.

This is not the same thing as judging other peoples' reasons for buying an expensive piano or thinking they should be embarrassed or unworthy of buying an expensive piano if they can't play at all or are a beginner or just want a beautiful piece of furniture.

























Edited by pianoloverus (08/01/12 09:49 PM)

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#1936056 - 08/01/12 09:39 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: Piano World]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I remember many years ago, a lady bought a brand new Steinway B. I gave the piano its first tuning, went over it and then explained how often it should be tuned. Her response was surprising. She said "oh, nobody plays it. I just bought a Steinway so people could see that 'I have a Steinway!'" I thought boy what a shame but then again, it's her piano to do with as she wishes I guess....
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1936058 - 08/01/12 09:46 PM Re: Death of a Piano - Landfill Pianos [Re: pianoloverus]
Rod Verhnjak Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/06
Posts: 3659
Loc: Vancouver B.C. Canada
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

or just want a beautiful piece o d furniture.


And some restore vintage pianos for this reason, even though they are discouraged by those selling truly disposable instruments.
_________________________
Verhnjak Pianos
Specializing in the Restoration, Refinishing & Maintenance
of Fine Heirloom Pianos

Exclusive Dealer For Charles R. Walter Pianos
www.pianoman.ca
Verhnjak Pianos Facebook


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