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#1934739 - 07/30/12 01:46 PM Tuning Tip Sizes
dancarney Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 144
Loc: UK
Dear all,

I'm struggling to understand the sizing of tuning tips when comparing my current Watanabes (sizes 2 and 3) against tips from Jahn:

https://www.pianoteile.com/DesktopModule...uning%20Hammers

Does anyone know what sizes from Jahn equate to a Watanabe 2 and 3?

Thanks!
_________________________
BMus(Hons) DipABRSM
Piano Technician

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#1934758 - 07/30/12 02:35 PM Re: Tuning Tip Sizes [Re: dancarney]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Yes, the Jahn site is confusing since the metric sizes they give relate to the tuning pin sizes for the threaded part of the pin.
This has no relation directly to the tuning pin tip size.

Actually, a #1/#2/#3 tip will fit on almost every pin and work, it comes down to if you want the tip to be high and tight, or low and loose. The tip sizes can better tailor the fit you want because there are some slight varying manufacture tolerances between pin makers on both the taper angle, and the taper size.

I see they have a #2 and a #3 on the listings with the word "ringe" beside it. This may be the tip size, although I find it odd they would not have a #1 listed amongst all the tips.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1935260 - 07/31/12 12:06 PM Re: Tuning Tip Sizes [Re: Emmery]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1923
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Yes, the Jahn site is confusing since the metric sizes they give relate to the tuning pin sizes for the threaded part of the pin.
This has no relation directly to the tuning pin tip size.

Actually, a #1/#2/#3 tip will fit on almost every pin and work, it comes down to if you want the tip to be high and tight, or low and loose. The tip sizes can better tailor the fit you want because there are some slight varying manufacture tolerances between pin makers on both the taper angle, and the taper size.


It might be true in the USA that any tip, #1, 2 or 3, will fit most any pin. Dan is in the UK, so I'm not sure what it's like there. I've not tuned many pianos, but on several of those I've tuned here (German and local uprights and the odd Yamaha), I found pins in the 6.75 to 6.9mm range, on which my Schaff #1 fitted mid-high and mid-tight, while my Schaff #2 fitted low and loose. My Watanabe #2, which I bought later, hoping for a better fit than the Schaff #2, actually starts to ride on the string coils in these pianos! I'm pretty sure a #3 would be too large to be of any practical use on these pianos. It would just ride on the coils. The largest pins I've encountered thus far were occasional replacement pins at 2/0. These took my Watanabe #2 beautifully.

So, while I've seen several (American) technicians on this forum call it a "misconception" or "mistake", I do see a rough correlation between the pin size and a good tip size to be used on it (e.g. #2 for a 2/0 pin).

Originally Posted By: Emmery
I see they have a #2 and a #3 on the listings with the word "ringe" beside it. This may be the tip size, although I find it odd they would not have a #1 listed amongst all the tips.


Those "rings" refer to the markings ("Kennzeichnung") on the tips themselves, according to pin diameter. As far as I can make out, the ring number correlates roughly, but not 1-to-1, with conventional tip size numbers:

1 ring = 6.75 mm, approx. #0 (only listed as 1 ring on the German version of the site, not the English one)
2 rings "narrow" = 6.9 mm, which by my reckoning is approx. #0 to #1
3 rings = 7.0 mm, approx. #1
4 rings = 7.25 mm, approx. #3

I'll gladly stand corrected, being a beginner with limited (and localised) experience, but that's how I read it. Perhaps some British tuners could chime in.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1935299 - 07/31/12 01:07 PM Re: Tuning Tip Sizes [Re: dancarney]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Mark, I had come to the same conclusions as yourself in that tip sizes roughly co-relate to the tuning pin sizes, as far as Jahn's site is concerned. In reality however, the tip sizes and how high or low they position on the pin have to do with the planed/machined tapers on the pin, not their diameters.

Take for example the photo below. Two identical pins (3/0) from the same manufacturer, one is blued and one is nickel plated. They are in fact the same size on the threaded portion and only vary by .001" on the diameters of the tops (the plating accounts for this). Notice how the two lines I drew where the ends of the tapers are vary quite a bit. The same tuning tip sitting on these 2 identical sized pins will sit at different heights because of the differences in those tapered flats.



Manufacturers use a standard 3 1/2 degrees on the taper for all modern pins now (per side), 7 degrees inclusive. The amount they plane off however varies a fair amount, even for the same sized pin and same manufacturer. On older pins the end of the flat (on the taper)used to come up short of the becket hole. Nowdays the end of the flat coincides with the becket hole or sometimes even extends past it.

Because the manufacturers only hold themselves to standards on pin sizes and standard taper angle, the amount they machine on the taper varies. Thus the height of the tip on the pin will always vary. I guess this is why we carry dfferent tips and do a trial fit to see what works best.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1935306 - 07/31/12 01:12 PM Re: Tuning Tip Sizes [Re: dancarney]
dancarney Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 144
Loc: UK
I think I've found the answer.

According to the Watanabe site:

Size 2 (Watanabe) is 6.90Φ〜7.10Φ
Size 3 (Watanabe) is 7.15Φ〜

Hopefully the above size specs can be directly compared to Jahn tips.

90% of my work is with Yamaha U3 and C3 pianos, and the Watanabe 3 is a great fit on both.
_________________________
BMus(Hons) DipABRSM
Piano Technician

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#1935465 - 07/31/12 07:12 PM Re: Tuning Tip Sizes [Re: dancarney]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7039
Loc: France
WIth the Watanabe you can tune almost all pianos, only for some very old with little pins 6.xx mm it wobble too much)

The German tips are more well suited for German pins, Japanes ones are more thin, When I used Jahn lever I had to use the 4 tips availeable (well mostly the 1-2-3
, the4 only on some asian pianos

Bechsteins, Grotrian,(6.90) need the tip 1 (or 2 ?) from Watanabe or one or 2 from Jahn.

Jahn tips are way more long lasting than the standard Hale or other Apsco American tips, but in the end the Watanabe last even longer (because no much play installs, if you are cautious and use a normal fit)

The very long ans thin lever in 2 parts sold by Jahn with 4 tips is also excellent, I use it for stringing and lot of things and it aways have a nice fit.

All the extensible levers take some play with time, Jahn included, play on the intermediate part where you change the tip, play on the movable part of the handle. Also I have way less sensations with the extensible levers.

Sorry for the measuring method and relations between tips and tuning pins I have no real answer






Edited by Kamin (07/31/12 07:13 PM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1935621 - 08/01/12 02:59 AM Re: Tuning Tip Sizes [Re: dancarney]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1923
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Emmery,

I had assumed (clearly wrongly) that the end of the tapered flats is always very close to the becket hole. Thanks for the picture and explanation. I've learnt something, yet again.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1935667 - 08/01/12 07:01 AM Re: Tuning Tip Sizes [Re: Emmery]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7039
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Mark, I had come to the same conclusions as yourself in that tip sizes roughly co-relate to the tuning pin sizes, as far as Jahn's site is concerned. In reality however, the tip sizes and how high or low they position on the pin have to do with the planed/machined tapers on the pin, not their diameters.

Take for example the photo below. Two identical pins (3/0) from the same manufacturer, one is blued and one is nickel plated. They are in fact the same size on the threaded portion and only vary by .001" on the diameters of the tops (the plating accounts for this). Notice how the two lines I drew where the ends of the tapers are vary quite a bit. The same tuning tip sitting on these 2 identical sized pins will sit at different heights because of the differences in those tapered flats.



Manufacturers use a standard 3 1/2 degrees on the taper for all modern pins now (per side), 7 degrees inclusive. The amount they plane off however varies a fair amount, even for the same sized pin and same manufacturer. On older pins the end of the flat (on the taper)used to come up short of the becket hole. Nowdays the end of the flat coincides with the becket hole or sometimes even extends past it.

Because the manufacturers only hold themselves to standards on pin sizes and standard taper angle, the amount they machine on the taper varies. Thus the height of the tip on the pin will always vary. I guess this is why we carry dfferent tips and do a trial fit to see what works best.



Are you sure those are from the same brand ? which is it ?

I find the becket hole at a relatively similar place in regard of the threaded part.

I mostly use Klinke "Diamant" pins, some Biene, and I own 2 sets of Japanese pins that I cannot find the use for.

I thought that the angle was smaller on the Japanese tuning pins, generally speaking, hence the tip on Watanabe having a more progressive angle than the German ones (I understand it as the reason why they fit on more pins than the other)

May be some standardisation occured, also
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1935688 - 08/01/12 07:50 AM Re: Tuning Tip Sizes [Re: dancarney]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7039
Loc: France
Je conseille fortement cette clé "passe partout" :

https://www.pianoteile.com/DesktopModules/WebShop/shopdisplayproducts.aspx?id=508&cat=Stimmh%C3%A4mmer+mit+wechselbaren+Eins%C3%A4tzen

elle est longue et légère, et la qualité des canons est excellente.
vendue avec 4 canons.

Bien pour débutant, elle est un peu souple si on recherche la rigidité maxi, mais la souplesse ne me gène pas. On est de topute façon obligé pour apprendre a accorder, d'apprendre a évaluer l'élasticité de tous les éléments, ce qui compte alors est d'avoir des sensations fines dans la clé.
En tout cas pour des pianos anciens c'ets très confortable

Sorry for the French :

I just witness about this basic Jahn lever as being excellent, long and light, not so supple it worry, good for old pianos and for more recent ones.

2 parts lever sold with 4 different sized "tips"

The light wooden handle provide all the necessary sensations.

"old school" type, may be but mine is 30 years old and have zero wooble (used for stringing often)

A tuning lever which is resilient and elastic is providing lot of feedback when the pin elasticity is acting on the other side. I know this is against the "optimum rigidity" idea, but a student have to learn to read the elasticity of the pin , the wire, and the tuning lever, a tuning lever with some elasticity allows for some manipulations in a smoother way than a very rigid one. (sending a pulse to the bottom of the pin for instance)
I am may be wrong, but an elastic tuning lever is acting as an energy accumulator, that can be a part of the tuning technique. (and anyway a good training)


Edited by Kamin (08/01/12 07:54 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1936514 - 08/02/12 07:06 PM Re: Tuning Tip Sizes [Re: Olek]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Mark, I had come to the same conclusions as yourself in that tip sizes roughly co-relate to the tuning pin sizes, as far as Jahn's site is concerned. In reality however, the tip sizes and how high or low they position on the pin have to do with the planed/machined tapers on the pin, not their diameters.

Take for example the photo below. Two identical pins (3/0) from the same manufacturer, one is blued and one is nickel plated. They are in fact the same size on the threaded portion and only vary by .001" on the diameters of the tops (the plating accounts for this). Notice how the two lines I drew where the ends of the tapers are vary quite a bit. The same tuning tip sitting on these 2 identical sized pins will sit at different heights because of the differences in those tapered flats.



Manufacturers use a standard 3 1/2 degrees on the taper for all modern pins now (per side), 7 degrees inclusive. The amount they plane off however varies a fair amount, even for the same sized pin and same manufacturer. On older pins the end of the flat (on the taper)used to come up short of the becket hole. Nowdays the end of the flat coincides with the becket hole or sometimes even extends past it.

Because the manufacturers only hold themselves to standards on pin sizes and standard taper angle, the amount they machine on the taper varies. Thus the height of the tip on the pin will always vary. I guess this is why we carry dfferent tips and do a trial fit to see what works best.



Are you sure those are from the same brand ? which is it ?

I find the becket hole at a relatively similar place in regard of the threaded part.

I mostly use Klinke "Diamant" pins, some Biene, and I own 2 sets of Japanese pins that I cannot find the use for.

I thought that the angle was smaller on the Japanese tuning pins, generally speaking, hence the tip on Watanabe having a more progressive angle than the German ones (I understand it as the reason why they fit on more pins than the other)

May be some standardisation occured, also


Those pins in the photo are made by Nippon Denro. This is part of Ispat Industies, located in India. Its a huge steel company. The pins actually measure really consistant and proper for their size, decent finish and they are tough steel.
They sell a dozen of any size for about $10. If I repin a whole piano, I prefer to use german pins... especially if the piano warrants the extra cost.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1936733 - 08/03/12 02:41 AM Re: Tuning Tip Sizes [Re: dancarney]
Supply Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 3919
Loc: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
I hear all kinds of different experiences with Denro pins. I always thought they were from Japan, but if from India as you state, that could explain some irregularities
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Piano Forte Supply
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#1936877 - 08/03/12 01:00 PM Re: Tuning Tip Sizes [Re: Supply]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Supply
I hear all kinds of different experiences with Denro pins. I always thought they were from Japan, but if from India as you state, that could explain some irregularities


I had assumed the same thing about them being from Japan, mostly because of the "Nippon". I believe Hitachi Ltd. of Japan was instrumental in the companies establishment in the 80's and there was a lot of Japanese input in their establishment in the steel industry. Nippon Denro is now called JSW ISPAT Steel Limited since 2010 I think.

This company is huge, the largest of its kind. Much of the raw steel, and semi processed blanks used in European manufacturing come from them. Its really the finish on the pins that differ slightly from better pins out there, the bluing for instance is not as dark or polished and the plating is not as polished. Integrity of the steel, I can't tell a difference.

(Added humour) In the last week my wife noticed far less phone solicitations coming to our home. I wonder if it has to do with the huge power outage in India?


Edited by Emmery (08/03/12 01:03 PM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1936956 - 08/03/12 03:35 PM Re: Tuning Tip Sizes [Re: Emmery]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7039
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Supply
I hear all kinds of different experiences with Denro pins. I always thought they were from Japan, but if from India as you state, that could explain some irregularities


I had assumed the same thing about them being from Japan, mostly because of the "Nippon". I believe Hitachi Ltd. of Japan was instrumental in the companies establishment in the 80's and there was a lot of Japanese input in their establishment in the steel industry. Nippon Denro is now called JSW ISPAT Steel Limited since 2010 I think.

This company is huge, the largest of its kind. Much of the raw steel, and semi processed blanks used in European manufacturing come from them. Its really the finish on the pins that differ slightly from better pins out there, the bluing for instance is not as dark or polished and the plating is not as polished. Integrity of the steel, I can't tell a difference.

(Added humour) In the last week my wife noticed far less phone solicitations coming to our home. I wonder if it has to do with the huge power outage in India?


Can you cite your source please ? Klinke or Biene not producing ? There is yet some production in Europe, particularely in. Germany. Of course anything is possible ...
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1937007 - 08/03/12 05:07 PM Re: Tuning Tip Sizes [Re: dancarney]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2356
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Isaac, its very difficult to pinpoint with manufacturing companies their original sources for raw material, or partially manufactured rough products. Large companies keep a lid on this if they are outsourcing to 3rd world countries. They don't want the associated stigma of "cheap materials" effecting their sales.

Here in Canada, many steel fabrication and product manufacturers get their steel from cheap sources. I see the international ships heading to our inland lake ports steel companies all the time. With India being closer to Europe, I doubt many manufacturers would not take advantage of this, if we are. Also, recent changes in laws over the last few years have allowed producers/manufacturers to label a product as "Canadian made" for example, yet only a small percentage of handling/manufacturing needs to be done on an imported semi-produced product to do so. They are stricter with food goods and now are often using the terms "processed" or "packaged" as a separate term, instead of saying "Product of X country".

Here in Canada I can buy knives imported from Germany. They can say any of "Product of Germany", "Manufactured in Germany", "German Engineered" ect... If it doesn't say "Manufactured from (fine)German steel", there is no way of knowing what the source material was. Germans, Swiss and numerous other countries known for high quality goods don't generally leave out that last bit of information, if indeed it is made from their own materials.

Sometimes outsourced materials are quite obvious because of geography. Buy a Swiss made chocolate bar with macadamia nuts in it, and you can be assured that those nuts did not grow in the swiss alps.


Edited by Emmery (08/03/12 05:12 PM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1937011 - 08/03/12 05:23 PM Re: Tuning Tip Sizes [Re: dancarney]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7039
Loc: France
Yes Emmery, I can understand that, but I checked the leftover I have from Klinke (I love those tuning pins) BIene, and a Japanese brand without name, , and I agree with you about the 3.5 degrees angle, but the becket hole is always at the same distance from the thread.

Then, the Japanese pin have a not very well made thread, the Biene is consistent and the Klinke is the best (Nickel pated Klinke are better looking too)

I cannot say for the Denro pin as I never used them, I can perceive the fiffernce in the metal from the japanese and the Klinke, for instance.

Then, Denro pins are certainly often mounted on asian pianos, so I may have used them without knowing.

The metal of the Klinke is really special, soft, but very springy. I did not try to compare (bending, twisting, testing torque ) the other pins I have but I will try.

My idea about "Japanese" pins being more thin (for instance 3° and not 3.5 , does not seem to be prooved.

I am however reluctant to provide informations without saying , as journalists, "it have been said" or "possibly" or simply saying "the web site of brand x prentends that".

It is difficult enough those days to understand the provenance of parts of pianos, I suggest that we need even more precision then.

Thanks for the pics, I will send mine tomorrow, while it may not be very apparent that the shape of the pins differ, if they where baught semi finished they would be bored the same, probably.

Those last years I am giving much more attention to the tuning pins than before;

Best regards
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1937013 - 08/03/12 05:23 PM Re: Tuning Tip Sizes [Re: dancarney]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7039
Loc: France
xx dble post...


Edited by Kamin (08/03/12 05:25 PM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1937191 - 08/04/12 06:47 AM Re: Tuning Tip Sizes [Re: dancarney]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7039
Loc: France
The pics of different tuning pins Biene, Klinke , and Japanese :


Clearly the shape is different at the bottom of the pins.

The hole is located at the same place , the angle is the same 3.5° Tuning pins
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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