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#1935150 - 07/31/12 06:24 AM Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions
acortot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 459
Loc: Italy
This is an interpretation done with a virtual instrument where Chopin's original pedal-markings and dynamics were respected and interpreted.

the piano sound is modified to sound as much as possible like the old french piano sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xFKa3mQDxg
_________________________
rhythm must be inborn - Alfred Cortot

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime:

http://acortot.blogspot.it/2012/07/pleyel-hammers-in-chopin-era-i-martelli.html

Max DiMario

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#1935173 - 07/31/12 07:48 AM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: acortot]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19200
Loc: New York City
I think that performance is nonsense. Clearly incorrect rhythms and incorrect dynamics within the first page. Silly that the poster of that video thinks his interpretation is more correct than most others.

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#1935281 - 07/31/12 12:31 PM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: acortot]
Hakki Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2386
Originally Posted By: acortot
This is an interpretation done with a virtual instrument where Chopin's original pedal-markings and dynamics were respected and interpreted.

the piano sound is modified to sound as much as possible like the old french piano sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xFKa3mQDxg


LOL, this would turn Chopin in his grave!
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

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#1935353 - 07/31/12 02:09 PM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: Hakki]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5272
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: Hakki
Originally Posted By: acortot
This is an interpretation done with a virtual instrument where Chopin's original pedal-markings and dynamics were respected and interpreted.

the piano sound is modified to sound as much as possible like the old french piano sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xFKa3mQDxg


LOL, this would turn Chopin in his grave!

Yah, I'm not sure how I feel about it, either. It is so obviously choppy rhythmically that it was difficult to hear the music through the wake.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#1935406 - 07/31/12 04:33 PM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: Derulux]
acortot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 459
Loc: Italy
you think it's too choppy rhythmically?

I think maybe it's because I listen to very old recordings and the old pianists were quite choppy compared to the new ones.

One of my favourite pianists was a friend of Liszt born in 1848:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7fDE1qxIkY



for instance this woman was one of Clara Shumann's (Shumann's virtuoso wife)best pupils. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGqqB-iVaRc&feature=share

so the sense of rhythm was quite different, partly because of the pianos, partly because the concept of music was different then..

the recording I made is made on a virtual piano
_________________________
rhythm must be inborn - Alfred Cortot

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime:

http://acortot.blogspot.it/2012/07/pleyel-hammers-in-chopin-era-i-martelli.html

Max DiMario

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#1935410 - 07/31/12 04:36 PM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: pianoloverus]
acortot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 459
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think that performance is nonsense. Clearly incorrect rhythms and incorrect dynamics within the first page. Silly that the poster of that video thinks his interpretation is more correct than most others.


where do you hear incorrect dynamics?
_________________________
rhythm must be inborn - Alfred Cortot

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime:

http://acortot.blogspot.it/2012/07/pleyel-hammers-in-chopin-era-i-martelli.html

Max DiMario

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#1935426 - 07/31/12 05:25 PM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: acortot]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19200
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: acortot
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think that performance is nonsense. Clearly incorrect rhythms and incorrect dynamics within the first page. Silly that the poster of that video thinks his interpretation is more correct than most others.


where do you hear incorrect dynamics?
The chords in measure 8 are played at almost the same dynamic level as the pp triplets that follow. Same thing in the next similar passage. This makes no sense musically IMO and is not indicated in the score. Some basic rhythmical errors on page 1...as much as I could listen to.

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#1935429 - 07/31/12 05:26 PM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: acortot]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17799
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: acortot
you think it's too choppy rhythmically?

I think maybe it's because I listen to very old recordings and the old pianists were quite choppy compared to the new ones.

[...]


Why would you be influenced by recordings from an age when adherence to the score was more cavalier than it is now? Why would you not want to observe the timing as it is written?

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#1935455 - 07/31/12 06:41 PM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: BruceD]
acortot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 459
Loc: Italy
I prefer music which isn't limited by the mathematical subdivisions of the score.

music in the time of the composers wasn't followed as strictly as now. Perhaps this is because before 1860 or so pianists were only recognized if they composed.. many musicians composed.

only towards the late 1800's did the 'pianist' in the modern sense begin to emerge.

Saint-Saens says that in old music the way notation was written was not always the way it was played.. it was considered obvious at the time because the music community was tight-knit and regional.. sort of like Bluegrass or different types of blues are regional in style in the USA.

like in modern music and jazz, the phrase has it's own rhythmic logic. The composer is forced to use notation to write a piece of music but he may hear it as something quite free..

I am not saying the recording I did is perfect, far from it.. just that I tried to follow the indications for pedal and dynamics as on the first edition, which is the closest to the manuscript that I can get..


Edited by acortot (07/31/12 06:43 PM)
_________________________
rhythm must be inborn - Alfred Cortot

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime:

http://acortot.blogspot.it/2012/07/pleyel-hammers-in-chopin-era-i-martelli.html

Max DiMario

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#1935457 - 07/31/12 06:50 PM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: pianoloverus]
acortot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 459
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: acortot
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think that performance is nonsense. Clearly incorrect rhythms and incorrect dynamics within the first page. Silly that the poster of that video thinks his interpretation is more correct than most others.


where do you hear incorrect dynamics?
The chords in measure 8 are played at almost the same dynamic level as the pp triplets that follow. Same thing in the next similar passage. This makes no sense musically IMO and is not indicated in the score. Some basic rhythmical errors on page 1...as much as I could listen to.


I have a decrescendo on the initial chords of that group of chords and presumed that the notes after were therefore lower in dynamic..

perhaps I made a mistake in interpreting the decrescendo?

as far as rhythmical errors, they were intentional... I actually programmed the entire thing on a piano-roll editor, so I chose to 'play' them as they are!
_________________________
rhythm must be inborn - Alfred Cortot

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime:

http://acortot.blogspot.it/2012/07/pleyel-hammers-in-chopin-era-i-martelli.html

Max DiMario

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#1935460 - 07/31/12 06:57 PM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: acortot]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19200
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: acortot
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: acortot
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
I think that performance is nonsense. Clearly incorrect rhythms and incorrect dynamics within the first page. Silly that the poster of that video thinks his interpretation is more correct than most others.


where do you hear incorrect dynamics?
The chords in measure 8 are played at almost the same dynamic level as the pp triplets that follow. Same thing in the next similar passage. This makes no sense musically IMO and is not indicated in the score. Some basic rhythmical errors on page 1...as much as I could listen to.


I have a decrescendo on the initial chords of that group of chords and presumed that the notes after were therefore lower in dynamic..

perhaps I made a mistake in interpreting the decrescendo?

as far as rhythmical errors, they were intentional... I actually programmed the entire thing on a piano-roll editor, so I chose to 'play' them as they are!
Why would anyone intentionally make rhythmical errors?

The decrescendo you made(as indicated in the score)is way too much and makes no sense musically. That is why no major pianist plays it that way as far as I know. The pp triplets are supposed to come in a a sudden change in dynamics.

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#1935475 - 07/31/12 07:50 PM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: BruceD]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: acortot
you think it's too choppy rhythmically?

I think maybe it's because I listen to very old recordings and the old pianists were quite choppy compared to the new ones.

[...]


Why would you be influenced by recordings from an age when adherence to the score was more cavalier than it is now? Why would you not want to observe the timing as it is written?

Regards,


wasn't the approach cavalier when Chopin wrote the piece?

_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1935477 - 07/31/12 07:58 PM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: acortot]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Originally Posted By: acortot
I prefer music which isn't limited by the mathematical subdivisions of the score.

music in the time of the composers wasn't followed as strictly as now. Perhaps this is because before 1860 or so pianists were only recognized if they composed.. many musicians composed.

only towards the late 1800's did the 'pianist' in the modern sense begin to emerge.

Saint-Saens says that in old music the way notation was written was not always the way it was played.. it was considered obvious at the time because the music community was tight-knit and regional.. sort of like Bluegrass or different types of blues are regional in style in the USA.

like in modern music and jazz, the phrase has it's own rhythmic logic. The composer is forced to use notation to write a piece of music but he may hear it as something quite free..

I am not saying the recording I did is perfect, far from it.. just that I tried to follow the indications for pedal and dynamics as on the first edition, which is the closest to the manuscript that I can get..


That is a very common-sense way to look at how the composers probably did things. Like jazz, blues, folk, gypsy tunes, etc. there had to be ways of playing - conventions - that one really could not notate. Like swing eights. I always like to imagine that Chopin sat down at the piano and just played - improvised the work on the spot - and wrote it down, what he could remember of it - later. With no you-tube, iPods, CD, cassettes, 8-track, LPs, 78s, radio, I bet a lot of pianists never heard many pieces played, and so just tried to play the conventions that they knew from the chart. or took the word of a teacher who had studied under somebody etc... I am reminded of the Horowitz interview years ago by a Dutch journalist who said something on the order of things are different from the early 1920's and 30s; and Horowitz said, "You weren't born then."


Edited by daviel (07/31/12 08:05 PM)
Edit Reason: horowitz wisdom
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1935490 - 07/31/12 08:36 PM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: daviel]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19200
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: daviel
That is a very common-sense way to look at how the composers probably did things. Like jazz, blues, folk, gypsy tunes, etc. there had to be ways of playing - conventions - that one really could not notate.
There is a big difference between greater use of rubato/rhythmic flexibility and simply not following the rhythm and dynamics in the score. Why do you think Chopin was so precise and detailed in his scores if he didn't want his instructions followed?


Edited by pianoloverus (07/31/12 08:38 PM)

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#1935622 - 08/01/12 03:13 AM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: acortot]
acortot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 459
Loc: Italy
Yes, but what is called an error today wasn't necessarily called an error yesterday

I view the score more as 'knock knock', 'hello, come-in', 'sit-down, please'

there are a lot of pauses sometimes 2 bars sometimes one, I don't think they were meant to tell all the story.. the time-element changes depending how you interpret it.

if you listen to more recordings of De Pachmann you'll find that he twists around the rhythms much like soul-singers do, but he had absolute control of it and he could get away with it because of the presence that he gave-off live, due to the strong interpretation..

regarding the decrescendo, on the first edition the decrescendo is always on the first chord, and not extended.. listening back I went from a ff to a mf, with the knock-knock figure being pp... consider that the dynamics on this virtual piano aren't perfect.. sometimes there are errors, but on the whole I like it..

as far as authenticity, I think that the sense of perfection in the time of Chopin was quite different than today.. the pianos were soft and woody (unlike the restored versions you hear today) and had little power.. not enough for a full concert..

Chopin said that the best things in music were lost in concert.. he felt at ease playing for his friends at home or in a Salon-setting, late in the evening..

I mention this because the atmosphere described above is one where one can play most freely, as opposed to making a show in public and being subjected to criticism... even by paying ticketholders who have little or no musical sensibility

So, although the recording I did does sound a bit artificial and could be a lot better, I actually like the way it came-out.. technically I don't think it's so off-base..

but then maybe in a year I might be more restrained..

meanwhile, listen to Carl Reinecke, who saw Chopin play and was a respected teacher and composer (on piano roll.. but the rhythm is unaltered from the original performance)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYEZir3HDJk

at the time, the Germans were known to be the most flexible in rhythmic phrasing.. today I think things have changed..
_________________________
rhythm must be inborn - Alfred Cortot

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime:

http://acortot.blogspot.it/2012/07/pleyel-hammers-in-chopin-era-i-martelli.html

Max DiMario

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#1935629 - 08/01/12 03:29 AM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: acortot]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Wow. Everyone aware of how I'm always screaming about doing one's homework? Now you know why. There is more blah blah blah in this thread than I've seen in a while. I won't even waste my time with the recording, because everything I need to know is included in the wording of the very first post. Homework, young acortot. Just do it.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1935635 - 08/01/12 03:55 AM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: acortot]
acortot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 459
Loc: Italy
Now, here is a post which I find offensive..

I think I have done my homework, stores..

If you care to specify what you are referring to in particular please do so, as I am always open to discussion..

If you are not planning to discuss but simply planning to offend then you are not helping at all.

Be nice.. you may not offend people on the internet but you can criticize.
_________________________
rhythm must be inborn - Alfred Cortot

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime:

http://acortot.blogspot.it/2012/07/pleyel-hammers-in-chopin-era-i-martelli.html

Max DiMario

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#1935638 - 08/01/12 04:01 AM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: acortot]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: acortot
Now, here is a post which I find offensive..

I think I have done my homework, stores..

If you care to specify what you are referring to in particular please do so, as I am always open to discussion..

If you are not planning to discuss but simply planning to offend then you are not helping at all.

Be nice.. you may not offend people on the internet but you can criticize.



I'm fed up with people posting garbage and then rushing out to defend themselves from doing so once chastised for posting such rubbish. I don't have the time to specify, because there ISN'T enough time, but there are enough holes (and just plain bad/wrong information) in your posts that were I able I would ban you (and trust me you're not the only one). If you're offended then you need to grow up, because one cannot post a "performance" and not expect to be taken to task at some point. You THINK you've done your homework, which is the problem. Too often we THINK we've done all we need to do, but reality all too often dictates otherwise.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1935647 - 08/01/12 04:48 AM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: acortot]
acortot Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/28/07
Posts: 459
Loc: Italy
I think your argument is slanderous and little more..

you have not criticized the work but are defacing my image without making any logical arguments or criticisms.

You are calling my post 'garbage' with 'nothing to back it up' when I have already posted some arguments.

I have been studying Chopin's life and works for decades.

I am entitled to my opinion (although I may make mistakes from time to time) but you are NOT entitled to attack my persona.

IF you are informed in the matter state your case, otherwise stop posting these offensive comments.


Edited by acortot (08/01/12 04:49 AM)
_________________________
rhythm must be inborn - Alfred Cortot

An Article on the unusual makeup of original Pleyel hammers, during Chopin's lifetime:

http://acortot.blogspot.it/2012/07/pleyel-hammers-in-chopin-era-i-martelli.html

Max DiMario

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#1935829 - 08/01/12 01:07 PM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: acortot]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5272
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: acortot
IF you are informed in the matter state your case, otherwise stop posting these offensive comments.

Normally, I would not post into the middle of an argument, but in this case, I second this.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

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#1935919 - 08/01/12 04:22 PM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: acortot]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6645
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: acortot

You are calling my post 'garbage' with 'nothing to back it up' when I have already posted some arguments.



Your arguments are garbage as well.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#1935929 - 08/01/12 04:53 PM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: acortot]
GeorgeB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 635
sorry but I think this awful.

1. What "first edition" are you using?

I don't know if you are aware but by saying you are using the "first edition" you could be refering to the first English edition, or the first French edition... etc..
that's not my main point. my point is riddled with misprints.

2. Chopin writes exactly. He goes into loads of il. If he had wanted all the distortion you did he would have written it mehow.
no rolls even though they are useful they have great
limitations....
Having freedom is not the same as distorting it.

3. De pachmann, was known for being extremely eccentric... just because he got away with it doesn't mean everyone will.

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#1935956 - 08/01/12 05:35 PM Re: Chopin Scherzo Op. 31 interpreted with Chopin's instructions [Re: acortot]
piette Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/12
Posts: 29
Loc: Durham, United Kingdom
In my opinion the recording which you have posted here is not how Chopin would have intended this piece to be played. I will begin by outlining why I feel as though I have a suitable knowledge of Chopin to make a judgement such as this. For several years now, I have dedicated myself to the in depth study of Chopin's works of music, his life, his influences, his teaching and his ways of playing. In addition to this, I have studied and discussed these topics at length with John Rink, one of the world's leading authorities on our old friend Monsieur Chopin. My studies have involved a great deal of time and effort; lots of reading (different stories/tales/accounts/memoirs) and lots of listening has had to be done.
Now for some musical points...
The style of playing which you have utilised in your recording (whilst sometimes interesting and quirky) overall (in my opinion) produces an overly drawn out and dreamy, yet sometimes angular sound. You have mentioned German pianists (active late 19thC early 20thC) in your previous posts, however it was around this time that a tremendous number of editions of Chopin's works began to appear with a lot of changes made to them by people who thought they knew better... German musicologists/publishers were notorious for their changes to Chopin's works around the end of the 19th century... These 'small changes' often included changing notes of melodies which seemed unusual, altaring rhythms, changing harmonies (eg bar 7 of Ballade No. 1 which many musicologists found to be 'odd') and moving bar lines... I have before me right now no fewer than 5 editions of the B major Nocturne Op. 32 No. 1, each of which has completely different notated rhythms for the ending... one of them completely misses out a beat too. Even Chopin's first editions were rife with mistakes... I won't go into these but would advise you read the publication history of pieces at: http://www.cfeo.org.uk
As for the tempo of your recording - it is much slower than most others and whilst Chopin did not actually put a metronome marking on this piece, it is worth noting that he always added metronome markings to his pieces (as can be seen in first editions) up until the publication of his two Nocturnes Op. 27 at which point he stopped adding metronome markings as he felt that people may try to stick to them with such slavish adherence that the music loses all of its 'breathing' which is a feature that was characteristic of Chopin's own playing as we know from a great number of accounts. It is undeniable however that the tempo at which you have taken this piece is too slow; as the piano mechanism developed and performance traditions changed people often began to play pieces more slowly, so if you truly want to learn more about performing Chopin's works exactly as he would have intended them (which is what your title suggests that your recording attempts to do) then I would highly advise acquiring a Pleyel or Erard piano from the 1830s or 1840s and practising all your Chopin on that. You will learn a lot simply from doing that and then with careful thought and study, you may be able to make a convincing and 'informed', period recording of Op. 31 as it really should be played, as opposed to how many pianists of the early 20th century played it...

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Digital piano plays keys that aren't being pressed
by symphonicfinale
20 minutes 26 seconds ago
Baby Grand - Knabe or J. Strauss & Son?
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New to the digital piano world! Can anyone help?
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Yamaha Swap For Roland ???
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midi over the internet
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Today at 04:56 AM
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