Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum recipe for graphite grease (whippen springs)

Do anyone have a recipe with proportions for that lube paste?

I have one I made with graphite powder , cork grease and lanolin, but my impression is that cork grease is too fluid.

Lanolin seem to be good but possibly it will make verdigrises on the brass springs.

Possibly I should use artificial tallow, I have no idea of the acidity of that product.

Lanolin is very excellent as tit is sticky and it does not harden in time. I use it with talcuum for pedal springs and leather/metal contact.
Any old or recent recipe.

PS I consider the lube for the springs in the whippens have to be heavy (Steinway style) may be to be sure enough force is applied on the jack side.

Kamin:

Where do you use this grease ? Are you referring to the hooked part of the spring that connects to the jack loop ?

I may have picked up what you meant wrongly, but I wouldn't use any kind of grease there. I prefer to lubricate the jack loop using a 2B pencil ... it stops any spring squeak, doesn't rot the loop cord, and is easy to apply.

Best wishes - John

Lanolin works fine on the repetition spring. Bend out the spring at the side, as when you regulate the tension, hold it there with the hook, apply a little lanolin and click it back. Goes quite fast to do the whole piano.

Thanks for the ansers, I am actually cleaning the ol gunk in a 1900 Steinway. It turns green and hardened at the contact with brass. I burnish the bottom of the sping location as a hole developped on some of them
Then I install new lube. I guess I will make a mix with lanolin and graphite, or talcuum (garphite ? I dont like it much) the cork. Grease is too oily for that purpose I suppose.

Thanks for the pencil tip .good one . I have pencils 5 B. I suppose the more is the best.

I do not use any grease or lube in the spring-groove on the repetition lever. I do spend time scraping hardened gunk put there by other technicians. ;>)

The spring groove needs no lubrication. The slot may get a deep groove from the spring over time, but this can be fixed by using a rounded steel tool of some kind (...I have a narrow tip capstan tool that is ideal) and compressing the wood fibers around that slot to match (..should be done in the factory anyway). A slight resistance actually adds to the control and eveness of the spring response. Tooo slippery is NOT a good thing.

The MOST I will use...and only of the lever seems to move inconsistantly...is a soft pencil to lay a small amount of graphite in the slot, and then using that rounded tip tool to gently burnish it in place.

Putting grease or thick lubricants of any kind can lead to problems in the future or cause the spring to move unevenly.

I am not aware of any manufacturer who suggests heavy lubes of any kind in this area of the piano. I have heard several techs claim that the natural interface between the spring and groove is already 'slippery' enough and requires NO lubrication at all.

I'm with them!
Keep it clean, but don't gunk it up.

Smiling,
I am,
Out the door for tunings,

I burnished and used pencil there,and find the spring was too fast.
I may be wrong, but actual Steinway whippens are may be yet loaded with a graphite paste and not only DAG. The jack side of the spring is (sure) lubed with a whitish paste.

Not wishing to labour the point too much, but I consider the use of any grease or oily substance on action springs to be just storing problems up for the poor tech that has to try to get rid of it .... as Kamin is now finding!

The wooden notches can easily be lubricated using a hard pencil - This also tends to burnish the surface at the same time, so the need for using another tool to accomplish a nice polished surface becomes unnecessary.

Like wise for the holes in Steinway type grand jacks - a hard pencil sharpened and rotated in the holes is just the job!

Any felt or corded surfaces where a spring contacts, are best treated using a soft "B" pencil that transfers the graphite more easily. There is no consequential gumming up and likelihood of accumulation of dirt getting mixed in with the grease.

On uprights, I always run a "B" pencil in the damper notches if felted, or "HB" if not - This cures any damper spring squeak completely.

Pencils are a great way apply dry-lube, and using them on friction surfaces doesn't end up making life difficult for subsequent technicians who may have to decontaminate.

All the best - John

So why does Steinway use graphite paste in the grove?
All whippens I have seen with a Hertz spring from Renner have graphite paste to prevent squeak. In some older pianos there was felt installed like in the damperws in uprights.
If you apply very little lanolin on top of the spring whrere it is bent, it will not cause any trouble.

sure any prodcuct casing vertdegris is source for troubl.
First the shape of the spring location matters. I am just unsure of the reason for any heavy lube there. There is definitively a different behaviour of the spring when only pencil or DAG is used, as if the brake of the grease is a security against sping strenght uneveness or whatever...

I am probably too much nit picky there . I use also pencils as you do John I shape them so I can access between whippens for instance.
The fast rubbing of lanolin. On the top of the springs is also very efficient.

Can be done with a finger after a little cleaning.. The lube used by Renner on the jacki side is very long lasting. I was promised a sample as it is not sold separately.

But, are you aware that this stuff is original from the Steinway factory?

I'm not saying it is the best approach, but that's what they do. There actually are some cases of noises when it is removed.

I don't like the stuff, myself, and would normally want to install modern wippens but if I had to restore a set of wippens, I might consider using Prolube or something similar.

Hey ... I'm not here to argue, I'm just passing on a tip ! If you want to go the Steinway route carry on .... but I prefer not to!

"Can be done with a finger after a little cleaning"

Exactly Isaac, and I don´t use lanolin to prevent noice, I use it in the after all rare situations where there is some squeak from the spring/whippen.

I make a lube of deer tallow,beeswax and graphite. Melt tallow in a wax melting pot similar to a hide glue pot with higher temps,add graphite until opaque, add beeswax to thicken. This is a lube used going back to 1900 in machinery where wooden gears and levers meet with metal. Great under very high pressure. With new NY Steinway repetitions I apply in melted state to the spring slot. I remove the teflon spring pin and bush traditionally. Add tungsten disulphide mixed with alcohol to the spring hole in the jack. Polish spring ends. Pin centers. This brings a beautiful feel of control to an action. Spring regulation is a joy. In service,before you adjust springs, flip up the hammers and over extend the lever. This brings lube into the area and most of the regulation is back.
All the best!

Great answer, very precise, thanks so much.

I use a similar recipe without graphite for wood screws. (Not all, not action wood screws for instance unless it is in a new Steinway rail)

How may I find the powder you tell about ?

Dont you belive that synthetic tallow would be less acid than mutton or cork grease ?

Tungsten disulphide powder is used in the Aerospace industry as a lubricant, at the other end of the scale it is used by "Pinewood Derby" clubs. Most hobby shops carry it in powder and liquid. I have not heard of synthetic tallow. In my experience all new synthetic lubricants are very expensive and do not last long, they are heat sensitive and close the door to traditional refinements. Old recipe lubricants are inexpensive to make on demand and if they only last 50-100 years I am OK with those time frames. To add a note: On new NY repetitions do yourself a favor and iron-out the knot of a heel cushion to a smoother radius, your weigh-off will greatly improve. I only use NY parts when requested. Renner is my choice, buy in advance of the job and let them adjust to your environment. It is rare that no pinning is needed. NY action centers get jumpy when pinned above 5gm and to get 5gm pin high because you will loose 2gms in a day or two.
As a mentor said "Loose is a Noose"

Thanks, I will see where I can find that.

I mostly work on the German S&S the parts are made by Renner, On those I rarely change any center, unless not tight enough which is rare.
I treat the stiff centers with water alcohol mix and wait the next day, problem is that 5% alcohol is more or less a maximum for the hammers, it is easily too strong.

When changing a center it may be too tight, as you said, , it also may be burnished , and if done in a drill press the stability is better.

Do you find the cm long centers for pinning jobs ? they are good to keep the squareness or eventually correct it

About synthetic tallow, I have some tallow I buy, tobe used on the cottons of buffing wheels, so to avoid sending dust everywhere (I use that even on polyester, eveen if possibly not the best thing, I hate to have abrasive dust anywhere in my shop and I dont have a special space for polishing.
Well, so to say, it was said tome this tallow was synthetic; it does not smell anything.
I agreee that old recipes have prooved their validity

Good tip about the heel cushion , is it too round on the original parts ? I am attentive to the quality of the cushion, here after about 110 years they lost half a mm in size, I will probably change them (they tend to intensify action noise). I have special cauls I made to glue new cloth there, but a cool method is to glue only the cloth, then pass the undercloth thru so the shape is good and so is the tension.

I like Renner parts but for Steinways sometime their whippen have the knive mark exactly under the roller and I dont like that.

It may be better on some more or less old action to rebuild the original whippens (despite the huge job) for geometry questions.

The alignment on "magic line" is not exactly at half blow, and its part of the touch and feel of those actions.

Hi no problem ! I appreciated the pencil tip on the cords, very efficient, did not thought of that one ....

Hoppe's Gun Grease is good. Not supposed to cause corrsion and very thick.

I seem to be able to find mobylene disulfite but not tungstene.

Any idea ?

Sorry, "Tungsten Disulfide" I buy it on EBay in small quantities.