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#1937854 - 08/05/12 07:18 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Norbert]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1625
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Thanks AJ!

Off to camping now...long weekend in B.C.!

Norbert thumb


Me too!
But alas I'm in Ontario and we both know the BEST camping in all of Canada is in B.C. Have fun!

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#1937857 - 08/05/12 07:22 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Entheo]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1625
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Entheo
well yes of course when it comes to preferences it's subjective but my general rule of thumb is that where commercial affiliations exist to take that subjective opinion and divide credibility by 2.


Fair enough. But my 'commercial affiliations' with Shigeru Kawai came quite awhile after I formed my opinion of their pianos and subsequently purchashed one. And unlike a Steinway endorsement I can still play any piano I like. grin

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#1937858 - 08/05/12 07:24 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
backto_study_piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 453
Loc: Australia
?


Edited by backto_study_piano (08/23/12 05:37 AM)
_________________________
Alan from Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert - she's 7'4" long and ebony) & 2 Allen Organs [long story - the first is for sale] - MDS312 and CF-15.

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#1937866 - 08/05/12 08:04 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: backto_study_piano]
Robert 45 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1262
Loc: Auckland New Zealand
At a guess, I would say, British Columbia in Canada.

Congratulations too on the happy arrival of your amazing new Grotian piano!

Regards,

Robert.

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#1937874 - 08/05/12 08:24 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: AJF]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3612
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: AJF
Originally Posted By: Entheo
well yes of course when it comes to preferences it's subjective but my general rule of thumb is that where commercial affiliations exist to take that subjective opinion and divide credibility by 2.


Fair enough. But my 'commercial affiliations' with Shigeru Kawai came quite awhile after I formed my opinion of their pianos and subsequently purchashed one. And unlike a Steinway endorsement I can still play any piano I like. grin


You can, but you're hardly likely to promote another piano over your own. If you do that, what value does Kawai get from your endorsement? How good would a rival piano have to be for you to give up your Kawai endorsement and seek a relationship with a rival maker? My guess is that you are not going to look your gift horse in the mouth - nor can I blame you. But it does make others question your impartiality.

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#1937878 - 08/05/12 08:37 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
backto_study_piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 453
Loc: Australia
.


Edited by backto_study_piano (08/23/12 05:37 AM)
_________________________
Alan from Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert - she's 7'4" long and ebony) & 2 Allen Organs [long story - the first is for sale] - MDS312 and CF-15.

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#1937880 - 08/05/12 08:39 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
j&j Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 444
Loc: Southwest
ec,

Take your time and play as many different brands in your price range and size that will fit in your allotted piano space. It could get confusing and frustrating, but your ears know the sound you're looking for and you can play at the level that you can really enjoy your piano love when you find it. Best of Luck - let us know your decision.

Alan - congratulations on your new Concert Grotian, Clara. How wonderful!

Rusty - has your piano tech recently regulated your C3? Some Yamahas have a heavier action, but a really good piano tech can work near miracles with both regulation and voicing.
_________________________
J & J
Yahama C3 PE
Casio Privia PX-330
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working." Pablo Picasso

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#1938121 - 08/06/12 10:58 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: backto_study_piano]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
Originally Posted By: backto_study_piano
I can only think that the SK2 & SK6 I played mustn't have been set up right, even though Kawai's 2 MPAs had each done so. [...]


How certain are you that it was Kawai MPA's?
_________________________
The People's Cube


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#1938124 - 08/06/12 11:02 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: AJF]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
Originally Posted By: AJF
[...] Everyone thought the Shigeru had the richest and most balanced tone of the three and took the least effort to produce the sounds desired by the player. All three pianos where a dream to play. So do be aware that your opinion that the Grotrian is "much more satisfying piano than a Shigeru" is a highly subjective statement.


We had the opportunity to compare various Steinways to Shigerus and pretty much came to the same conclusions.
_________________________
The People's Cube


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#1938303 - 08/06/12 04:29 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Tribbs]
ec Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 79
Loc: Long Beach, CA
OP here--Yesterday I took my duet partner (an accomplished pianist) so we could both road test the aforementioned Shigeru SK-5. I wasn't quite as smitten as on my first visit, and she wasn't impressed at all - the action seemed a tad shallow compared to that of my G-2, and the return rate (is that the right term?) was a little sluggish on rapid repeated notes. It does, however, produce a gorgeous sound in the showroom, esp. well-suited to my preferred repertoire. The same dealer also has a newly arrived pre-owned RX-6 not yet in the showroom. Also sampled others on the floor, including a Yamaha C-4 from 1990 (way too bright, with an exceptionally heavy touch) and a new Petrof grand (don't recall the model, but according to the dealer, Petrof has recently jacked up their prices, so at 80K, we didn't get too analytical about why we didn't care for the sound...)
We had planned to visit a nearby Yamaha showroom, but ran out of time. The dealer offered to have the RX-6 tuned and ready for us for us next weekend as well as having some tweaking done on the SK-5 to counter my observations about key depth and return. Returning home to practice, I realized that nothing I'd played pleased me as much as my humble little G-2. Maybe I've just grown complacent...
_________________________
ec
Long Beach, CA
*********************

Chopin - Nocturne, Op.62, No. 2
Mazurka, Op. 41, No. 1 (C# minor)
Etude, Op. 25, No. 9
Polonaise, Op. 40, No. 2, C minor

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#1938311 - 08/06/12 04:37 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Tribbs]
backto_study_piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 453
Loc: Australia


How certain are you that it was Kawai MPA's?[/quote].


Edited by backto_study_piano (08/23/12 05:39 AM)
_________________________
Alan from Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert - she's 7'4" long and ebony) & 2 Allen Organs [long story - the first is for sale] - MDS312 and CF-15.

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#1938325 - 08/06/12 04:55 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
backto_study_piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 453
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: ec
OP here--Yesterday I took my duet partner (an accomplished pianist) so we could both road test the aforementioned Shigeru SK-5. I wasn't quite as smitten as on my first visit, and she wasn't impressed at all - the action seemed a tad shallow compared to that of my G-2, and the return rate (is that the right term?) was a little sluggish on rapid repeated notes. It does, however, produce a gorgeous sound in the showroom, esp. well-suited to my preferred repertoire. The same dealer also has a newly arrived pre-owned RX-6 not yet in the showroom. Also sampled others on the floor, including a Yamaha C-4 from 1990 (way too bright, with an exceptionally heavy touch) and a new Petrof grand (don't recall the model, but according to the dealer, Petrof has recently jacked up their prices, so at 80K, we didn't get too analytical about why we didn't care for the sound...)
We had planned to visit a nearby Yamaha showroom, but ran out of time. The dealer offered to have the RX-6 tuned and ready for us for us next weekend as well as having some tweaking done on the SK-5 to counter my observations about key depth and return. Returning homer to practice, I realized that nothing I'd played pleased me as much as my humble little G-2. Maybe I've just grown complacent...
.


Edited by backto_study_piano (08/23/12 05:40 AM)
_________________________
Alan from Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert - she's 7'4" long and ebony) & 2 Allen Organs [long story - the first is for sale] - MDS312 and CF-15.

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#1938330 - 08/06/12 04:59 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Gatsbee13 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 513
Loc: So Cal
To the OP: the RX-6 thats coming in (im assuming you went to Kim's piano), is currently on ebay.. i think its listed around 18k and was made in 2007.. seems like a good deal if the piano wasnt abused in the last 5 years. ill have to check it out once it comes in.


Edited by Gatsbee13 (08/06/12 05:00 PM)

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#1938341 - 08/06/12 05:11 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1536
Loc: Danville, California
Originally Posted By: ec
I realized that nothing I'd played pleased me as much as my humble little G-2. Maybe I've just grown complacent...


I guess this proves the old adage "There's no accounting for taste"

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#1938389 - 08/06/12 06:15 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: backto_study_piano]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: backto_study_piano
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
Originally Posted By: backto_study_piano
I can only think that the SK2 & SK6 I played mustn't have been set up right, even though Kawai's 2 MPAs had each done so. [...]


How certain are you that it was Kawai MPA's?


I had the Australian Ssales Manager with me who told me that, and told me th same technician was my MPA as well as will be my normal technician.


Your MPA is not one of those that build the pianos that come from the factory in Japan then, obviously. The ones from Japan work solely on SK pianos. Your bad experience with the two pianos you've auditioned is starting to sound more like a personal gripe against the dealer. Further, a sample of two pianos does not make you an authority on whether the entire line of SK pianos are over-hyped or not.
I'm sure we're all pleased that you've found a piano you like, but I for one find your dismissal of everything else, and especially the Kawai bashing, somewhat tiring.

Happy playing, and try to not discourage others from considering some otherwise excellent pianos by stating myopic views.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1938404 - 08/06/12 06:36 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
backto_study_piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 453
Loc: Australia
?


Edited by backto_study_piano (08/23/12 05:41 AM)
_________________________
Alan from Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert - she's 7'4" long and ebony) & 2 Allen Organs [long story - the first is for sale] - MDS312 and CF-15.

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#1938421 - 08/06/12 07:11 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: backto_study_piano]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: backto_study_piano
The MPAs Kawai use here aren't Japanese, and I know one of them works on other brands (the Petrof dealer told me he services Petrof).

Do yours come from Japan?


In North America they used to, maybe still do, come directly from the factory. Currently I believe Kawai Don Mannino is one of the few local MPAs. As far as I know he has never been part of the building or finishing processes in the factory. So, even though he may be the best local, well, continental, Shigeru tuner in America, I'm not convinced it is the same as working in the factory for years and having an intimate knowledge about what goes into the contruction/regulation/finishing processes. I'd actually be interested in his further input on all this.
It sounds like N.A is the only place that has offered the MPA from Japan. I've heard that in Hong Kong they hire local techs, and it apparently is the same in AUS.
In any event, I'd still suggest that what you've sampled have either been simply not to your taste, or that they weren't prepped properly, or both. But in any case, it makes little sense to continue to berate them in an attempt to dissuade others of their quality.
I started another thread a while ago about how I've never encountered a decent NY Steinway B, but I would never suggest that this must be because they are overhyped, mediocre instruments. On the contrary: I'm still intrigued to find one that matches my expectations from listening to recordings of them.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1938456 - 08/06/12 08:15 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: AJF]
PianoWorksATL Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2726
Loc: Atlanta, GA
.


Edited by PianoWorksATL (08/06/12 08:16 PM)
Edit Reason: unneccesary
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
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#1938536 - 08/06/12 10:47 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Furtwangler]
ec Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 79
Loc: Long Beach, CA
Well, in this case, there actually is some accounting for taste. My G-2 is a small grand, but it's always been well maintained--Dampp Chaser on, regular tunings, recently voiced and regulated, etc. It's currently housed in a large room with a vaulted cathedral ceiling that seems to bring out the best in any instrument played therein:) Everyone who plays my piano (many much more accomplished than I) loves the action and the sound it produces. I'm shopping because I've always wanted a bigger piano, and with retirement years in the offing, this is the time to go for it. I could easily finish out my career with this trusty Yamaha, but it's been getting some heavy traffic since I began to host an amateur piano performance group in my home:)
_________________________
ec
Long Beach, CA
*********************

Chopin - Nocturne, Op.62, No. 2
Mazurka, Op. 41, No. 1 (C# minor)
Etude, Op. 25, No. 9
Polonaise, Op. 40, No. 2, C minor

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#1938538 - 08/06/12 10:59 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: backto_study_piano]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1625
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: backto_study_piano
The MPAs Kawai use here aren't Japanese, and I know one of them works on other brands (the Petrof dealer told me he services Petrof).

Do yours come from Japan?


You're misusing the term MPA. There are only 20 some odd worldwide. You're obviously misinformed. And your jab at Shigeru regarding hype only shows your own ignorance. World class award winning pianists have praised the Shigeru line as some of the very best pianos on the planet.

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#1938569 - 08/07/12 12:44 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: AJF]
Robert 45 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1262
Loc: Auckland New Zealand
I agree with AJF that informed, professional opinion from both pianists and piano technicians, rates Shigeru Kawai pianos as among the best instruments in the world.
I have had the opportunity to try the full range of models in overseas showrooms and I have been captivated by the richness and radiance of the sound and the highly responsive action.
I believe that the new Shigeru Kawai "L" series is another step towards creating a perfect piano.

However, I also happily accept that there are other extraordinary pianos available at that level and I would always encourage a prospective buyer to sample as many different pianos as possible.
Whenever the choice is finally made, extol, by all means, the wondrous qualities of the chosen piano, but do not try to justify your preference by denigrating other piano brands.

Vive la différence!

Robert.

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#1938594 - 08/07/12 02:30 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: AJF]
backto_study_piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 453
Loc: Australia
You're misusing the term MPA. There are only 20 some odd worldwide. You're obviously misinformed. And your jab at Shigeru regarding hype only shows your own ignorance. World class award winning pianists have praised the Shigeru line as some of the very best pianos on the planet. [/quote].

[comment deleted]


Edited by backto_study_piano (10/03/12 09:52 AM)
_________________________
Alan from Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert - she's 7'4" long and ebony) & 2 Allen Organs [long story - the first is for sale] - MDS312 and CF-15.

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#1938628 - 08/07/12 05:50 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
sandalholme Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 778
Loc: Dorset, UK
Re my earlier post and the nationality of Kawai's master piano technicians in different countries. There is, or was, at least one Kawai Japanese mpt in the UK. I met him, he spent a day on my RX2. He was definitely Japanese!

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#1938661 - 08/07/12 07:56 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1117
Loc: chicago, il
it appears Kawai's MPA support policies understandably vary from country to country, e.g. sales associated with a country of 22 million vs. one of 311 million and the number (& possibly experience) of regional MPAs. the MPA costs have to be built into the price of the piano, and justification based on # of sales within a region.

on the other hand, this is from the SK website:

"Within the first year of ownership, those who acquire a SHIGERU piano will receive an extraordinary visit from one of the world’s finest piano craftsmen. One of our elite Master Piano Artisans will be sent from Japan..."

hmmm, so which is it -- are they locally based or sent from japan?
_________________________
diary of an amateur pianist

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#1938816 - 08/07/12 02:28 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: sandalholme]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: sandalholme
Re my earlier post and the nationality of Kawai's master piano technicians in different countries. There is, or was, at least one Kawai Japanese mpt in the UK. I met him, he spent a day on my RX2. He was definitely Japanese!


How odd. I understood that the MPA only work on Shigeru, not on the other models. Otherwise, what would stop the 1000s of RX owners from booking appointments with the actual piano builders?
You did put 'mpt' which may be a different designation: technician vs artisan?
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1938840 - 08/07/12 03:09 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3612
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
If the literature states that Kawai will send a Master Piano Artisan from Japan for every new Shigeru, then that's what they should do. Anything less is fraudulent. People buy these things on the promise that it will be adjusted exactly to their personal wishes by somebody with the utmost technical understanding of the manufacturing process and construction. I'm sure there are local technicians who are up to the job, but that's not the point - the MPA from Japan is the guarantee of expertise. I'd be furious if I bought a Shigeru and didn't get what I was promised.

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#1938844 - 08/07/12 03:22 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ando]
Robert 45 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1262
Loc: Auckland New Zealand
There are Kawai experts on this forum who can provide precise information.

On the Kawai North American website it states that the purchaser of a new Shigeru Kawai piano will receive a visit from an MPA or Master Piano Artisan to set up completely the new instrument. I believe that this applies mainly to the USA market.

Australia and New Zealand have, I believe, accredited "MPA" people who refine the piano in the purchaser's home. These people may not have the depth of experience and expertise as the Japanese MPA from the Shigeru Kawai factory. I would agree that Kawai needs to clarify this.

Regards,
Robert.

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#1938853 - 08/07/12 03:36 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ando]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
The Shigeru Kawai Master Piano Artisans (MPAs) are sent from the Shigeru Kawai factory and only work on the Shigeru line.

"A SHIGERU piano is perfected by an elite brand of craftsman. Each of our Master Piano Artisans is at the pinnacle of his profession. With remarkable skills proven in the world's finest concert halls and international piano competitions, each artisan brings a wealth of experience and passion to his craft.

"Upon completion of a finished work, the craftsman adds his name to the piano's rich pedigree as a symbol of devotion and pride.


"Within the first year of ownership, those who acquire a SHIGERU piano will receive an extraordinary visit from one of the world’s finest piano craftsmen. One of our elite Master Piano Artisans will be sent from Japan to provide personalized care for your SHIGERU piano in the form of concert-level tuning, regulation and voicing. Such visits are an exclusive attribute of the SHIGERU brand.

http://www.shigerukawai.com/features/mpa_visit.html

"Fewer than one percent of all Kawai instruments will ever bear the name SHIGERU. The rigorous degree of handwork and use of specially chosen materials keeps these instruments rare in both character and quantity. Each SHIGERU piano is a Limited Edition treasure selectively numbered for North America by year of creation.

...and I certainly don't consider any of the above marketing any more flowery or over the top than the Steinway showroom propaganda I have had to endure.

So I ask again, how certain are you that it was a "Shigeru" MPA that supposedly "tuned" the showroom Shigeru piano you played?
_________________________
The People's Cube


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#1938863 - 08/07/12 04:17 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Robert 45]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3612
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Robert 45
There are Kawai experts on this forum who can provide precise information.

On the Kawai North American website it states that the purchaser of a new Shigeru Kawai piano will receive a visit from an MPA or Master Piano Artisan to set up completely the new instrument. I believe that this applies mainly to the USA market.

Australia and New Zealand have, I believe, accredited "MPA" people who refine the piano in the purchaser's home. These people may not have the depth of experience and expertise as the Japanese MPA from the Shigeru Kawai factory. I would agree that Kawai needs to clarify this.

Regards,
Robert.


Australian salespeople are definitely saying that Kawai sends its own master technicians from the Kawai factory in Japan. I had 2 salesmen tell me that within the last month when I tried them out. Amazing that they think that would go unnoticed when non-Japanese techs with Aussie accents named Bruce show up at their door.

The real point is that it's quite inexcusable that they would fly technicians to the US but not to other countries. Surely every Shigeru owner is as worthy as any other. Why should the country play any role in that? It doesn't cost more to fly to Australia than the US. Hotels cost about the same... It reflects poorly on Kawai, especially when they are trying to create the image of the ultimate piano with the ultimate service.

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#1938866 - 08/07/12 04:25 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ando]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
It's simple. They call it supply and demand.
You put your best people where there is the most demand.

About how many genuine Japan factory Shigeru MPAs do you think exist?
_________________________
The People's Cube


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