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#1935838 - 08/01/12 01:21 PM Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ?
ec Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Long Beach, CA
I've just received the green light from my life partner to replace my beloved but aging Yamaha G-2 (we live in the Los Angeles area). My budget is about 30k, so I can't really consider new off the lot unless for a Yamaha C-3 or its ilk. Earlier this summer, I tried a pre-owned Shigeru SK-5 - really loved it but ground to a halt when my tuner/technician (whom I worship for his unwavering support of my G-2) voiced grave reservations about Shigeru pitch stability and Kawais in general. I played a new C-7 at Summerkeys (piano workshop in Maine) last week and loved everything about it. Just beginning my research, I discovered there are lots of preowned C-7s out there but we don't have quite enough room, and many of those are already almost as old as my 1987 G-2 frown What are your thoughts on Yamaha C-6?? Would you choose a new Yamaha C-3 over a pre-owned C-6? Any other suggestions from the common wisdom as I launch my research?
_________________________
ec
Long Beach, CA
*********************

Chopin - Nocturne, Op.62, No. 2
Mazurka, Op. 41, No. 1 (C# minor)
Etude, Op. 25, No. 9
Polonaise, Op. 40, No. 2, C minor

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#1935860 - 08/01/12 02:15 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3556
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: ec
I've just received the green light from my life partner to replace my beloved but aging Yamaha G-2 (we live in the Los Angeles area). My budget is about 30k, so I can't really consider new off the lot unless for a Yamaha C-3 or its ilk. Earlier this summer, I tried a pre-owned Shigeru SK-5 - really loved it but ground to a halt when my tuner/technician (whom I worship for his unwavering support of my G-2) voiced grave reservations about Shigeru pitch stability and Kawais in general. I played a new C-7 at Summerkeys (piano workshop in Maine) last week and loved everything about it. Just beginning my research, I discovered there are lots of preowned C-7s out there but we don't have quite enough room, and many of those are already almost as old as my 1987 G-2 frown What are your thoughts on Yamaha C-6?? Would you choose a new Yamaha C-3 over a pre-owned C-6? Any other suggestions from the common wisdom as I launch my research?


I played a very well preserved 1997 C6 last week, it was gorgeous. It didn't quite have the thunderous bass of the C7 but had a more pleasing tonal balance to my ears. One of the nicest pianos I've played - and I've played at least 60 in the past 3 weeks. The C6 sounds different to any of the other C pianos. It's got a more European sound, it that can be said. I would definitely take a nice preowned C6 over a C3, no comparison.

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#1935862 - 08/01/12 02:21 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1528
Loc: Danville, California
Originally Posted By: ec
I've just received the green light from my life partner to replace my beloved but aging Yamaha G-2 (we live in the Los Angeles area). My budget is about 30k, so I can't really consider new off the lot unless for a Yamaha C-3 or its ilk. Earlier this summer, I tried a pre-owned Shigeru SK-5 - really loved it but ground to a halt when my tuner/technician (whom I worship for his unwavering support of my G-2) voiced grave reservations about Shigeru pitch stability and Kawais in general. I played a new C-7 at Summerkeys (piano workshop in Maine) last week and loved everything about it. Just beginning my research, I discovered there are lots of preowned C-7s out there but we don't have quite enough room, and many of those are already almost as old as my 1987 G-2 frown What are your thoughts on Yamaha C-6?? Would you choose a new Yamaha C-3 over a pre-owned C-6? Any other suggestions from the common wisdom as I launch my research?


Get another opinion regarding Kawais and especially Shigerus - your tech may be an object of worship, but is wrong.

C6? Love 'em

C6 vs C3? No comparison - find a good C6

My humble opinions. (or is the plural opinia?)

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#1935863 - 08/01/12 02:22 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Rusty Fortysome Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/25/11
Posts: 194
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: ec
...Earlier this summer, I tried a pre-owned Shigeru SK-5 - really loved it but ground to a halt when my tuner/technician (whom I worship for his unwavering support of my G-2) voiced grave reservations about Shigeru pitch stability and Kawais in general...


Maybe I am missing this critique, but I never hear anyone complain about this. I am curious if others have this problem.

Anyone want to add to this with their experiences?
_________________________
Currently working on/memorizing...
"It's You" from Robotech
"He's A Pirate"
"Crazy Bone Rag"
"Claire DeLune (finally)"

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#1935864 - 08/01/12 02:26 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1528
Loc: Danville, California
Oh - one other thing.

Play a lot of other brands - unless you are dedicated to buying a Japanese piano.

There are a lot of choices out there in your price range that may surprise or even shock you.

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#1935883 - 08/01/12 02:54 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Rich D. Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/27/01
Posts: 1244
Loc: Rehoboth Beach De. USA
I would also recommend reconsidering the Shigeru and Kawai grands. Especially the Shigerus. I've never heard that kind of criticism your tech expressed about those grands since I've been here.

BTW - heading to Summerkeys next week and look forward to playing the new C-7.


Edited by Rich D. (08/01/12 04:22 PM)
_________________________
Retired at the beach (well maybe not completely)

"Life is like a piano....what you get out of it depends on how you play it"
Anonymous


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#1935916 - 08/01/12 04:19 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Amy B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/23/12
Posts: 78
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
I recently found a very good article on Shigeru Kawai below......

http://www.georgekolasis.com/shigeru-kawai.html

Also, if you look at the rest of the site, there is a lot of really good info there.

I really enjoyed the SK.....it's currently at the top of my list of pianos I've played in the last few weeks, since starting my search.
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK6 (as of 10/22/12!!)
Ivers and Pond upright
MTNA, CAPMT

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#1935920 - 08/01/12 04:23 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Amy B Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/23/12
Posts: 78
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
I am curious to know what others think of Yamaha's action. I played several new ones, and a couple of used, and felt that the action was fairly heavy and stiff for me. I felt like I would be pretty tired after playing any of them for more than 30 min. I am also playing many other new/used pianos, and haven't gotten that feeling from other pianos.

Wondering if that's a characteristic of Yamaha's that others have experienced?
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK6 (as of 10/22/12!!)
Ivers and Pond upright
MTNA, CAPMT

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#1935928 - 08/01/12 04:46 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Amy B]
Rusty Fortysome Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/25/11
Posts: 194
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Amy B
I am curious to know what others think of Yamaha's action. I played several new ones, and a couple of used, and felt that the action was fairly heavy and stiff for me. ...

Wondering if that's a characteristic of Yamaha's that others have experienced?


I have a C-3... it is heavy. I have played a fair amount of Yamahas: they all seem similar. While there is nothing particularly BAD about Yamahas, I find nothing exceptional aside from the solid construction of the C-series. They are true work horses.

My Yamaha is not enjoyable, but it is functional. It is in excellent condition, but the modern Kawais are about 3x more awesome in action and tone. That I have played.

I'd love to have a longer Hailun over my Yamaha. Yamahas are, to me, half-way to torture. Keep them well and they will always work and look great and last beyond your life, but who would desire to play one when there are much better sounding/feeling pianos for the same or less? Playing should be enjoyable. I'd imagine older people with weakening joints and muscles, perhaps mild arthritis, would be put out to pasture by a typical Yamaha.
_________________________
Currently working on/memorizing...
"It's You" from Robotech
"He's A Pirate"
"Crazy Bone Rag"
"Claire DeLune (finally)"

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#1935994 - 08/01/12 07:05 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
thetandyman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/27/12
Posts: 443
Loc: Indiana
Regardless of your varied search, Don't buy a new C3. You old one is not THAT old, but you will thrill from the sound of rich bass in a larger piano. Unless a piano brand is badly thought of by Techs, for pleasure ongoing, buy the one that turns you on, not considering the brand as long as it has a good track record in general.
But, then again, "what do I know" LOL
_________________________
Marriage is like a card game, you start with two hearts and a diamond, later you wish you had a club and a spade!
Yamaha G7 Yamaha CVP75 digital, Allen 3500 theater organ

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#1936023 - 08/01/12 08:17 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
ec, you're in an enviable position, being an experienced player and having a budget which will allow you to move up the piano food chain and get something nice--- even something new.

Your disadvantage is in your tech's bad advice regarding the Kawai marque, but he or she is certainly entitled to have his opinion. It can only harm you if it influences you to disregard candidates that might suit you. After all, it's you and not him, that the new piano has to satisfy. I would set it to the side and play lots of pianos, both those which are in your price range and also outside it.

I bought a Kawai RX-5 about five years ago for about the amount you mentioned. Things have gone up since, but today's market is favorable to buyers who are willing to negotiate for a fair deal, and who have done enough homework to know what that is.

"...I tried a pre-owned Shigeru SK-5 - really loved it but ground to a halt when my tuner/technician (whom I worship for his unwavering support of my G-2) voiced grave reservations about Shigeru pitch stability and Kawais in general...."

Sorry, ec, but this is bunk, according to my personal experience. You very likely know that any new piano needs as many as four tunings a year for the first year or two, and some adjustments (nothing drastic) as the instrument is played-in and adapts itself to your touch and playing style. This care in the early part of its life helps it to settle into a very nice tuning and very stable playability. My tech says it's a very nice piano to work on. Besides that, if you get a new Shigeru you will have a technician from the factory--- people who build the piano--- come to your home and spend most of a full day voicing and regulating it to perfection. It will be as close to what you prefer as they can make it. If you think of how much such a visit would cost (but it is included with your purchase price), it may help you to think the price is not so out-of-reach. For of course, we need to budget for the instrument's care and maintenance as well as its purchase price.

I didn't quite dare spend the money for the Shigeru--- I was dying for that seven-and-a-half foot piano they had in the store--- and instead got the RX-5 and a very good tech, who has gotten the best out of it. I will never so much as grow into that much piano, never mind outgrowing it. And the truth is, the six-and-a-half foot grand is plenty of piano for the size music room I have; maybe more than plenty.

The only time the tuning stability had varied more than I expected was when I had in-home lessons with a very accomplished pianist, who wanted to really hear that big piano voice, top open all the way, and playing full-out. He was very forceful, used to the concert hall and large churches. After six months of that, the piano required a pitch raise. Big deal, it was worth it; maybe it even needed it. Tech fixed it up, no excursions afterward.

Some people find the touch firmer than they like, but I think it's just right. I bought it partly because I loved the medium-weight, and very even touch.

These are things only you can say, and only after you wear out some shoe leather--- sorry; L.A.; I meant to say, brake linings--- testing, testing, and testing some more. I have a feeling you will know when you find it. I have a feeling you are going to have some very good luck.
_________________________
Clef


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#1936218 - 08/02/12 07:30 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: thetandyman]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1111
Loc: chicago, il
Originally Posted By: thetandyman
Regardless of your varied search, Don't buy a new C3.


unless it's a C3XA, one of the most beautifully balanced pianos i've ever played. in fact, it completely turned my opinion of yamahas around, to the point that i ended up purchasing a used C7 (it was just too good a deal to pass up). i also love the action of the C7, and the Ivorite key tops provide just the right amount of grip & feel.

here's an example recording of my C7: https://www.box.com/s/0lia1ms5c3ri0l735409
_________________________
diary of an amateur pianist

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#1936275 - 08/02/12 10:12 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
sandalholme Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 763
Loc: Dorset, UK
Re Kawai stability. My RX2 is now nearly 7 years' old. It gets played daily, sometimes for many hours per day. Because there were a few odd noises in the first few months, Kawai sent (foc) a master technician for a day to completely regulate and voice the instrument. It has always been stable and I live in an old house - solid earth walls no less - with central heating, no aircon or humidifiers/de-humidifiers. It gets tuned 3 - 4 times per year. This time around it was 6 months from the last tuning for various reasons. It was more than playable and the technician said it was still up to pitch, just a general tidying up tuning needed.

Kawai and Yamaha both provide solid reliable instruments: the choice is a personal one. Forget ill-informed advice, from whatever source and trust your own ear when it comes to comparing Yamaha and Kawai.

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#1936350 - 08/02/12 12:56 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
gnuboi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 2349
Loc: USA
My tuner always says that my Kawai is only slightly off-pitch when he comes (twice a year). Still, it bugged me enough to call him over and tune it wink

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#1936489 - 08/02/12 06:08 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: gnuboi]
ec Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Long Beach, CA
Thanks to everyone who chimed in on this discussion! I should add that I'm the founder of an adult amateur piano group that meets monthly, meaning 20 or more performances, more often than not at my home. Some of the more accomplished members are inclined to strut their stuff pretty assertively, and that translates into somewhat more wear and tear than would result from my daily practice. Furthermore, I hope to retire within a year or so in order to learn all that rep I've never had time to conquer yippie All of that should explain why I'm concerned about sturdiness and stability as well as beauty of tone and touch. I'll be launching the search shortly, and, of course, open to endless possibilities as well as serendipitious discoveries!
_________________________
ec
Long Beach, CA
*********************

Chopin - Nocturne, Op.62, No. 2
Mazurka, Op. 41, No. 1 (C# minor)
Etude, Op. 25, No. 9
Polonaise, Op. 40, No. 2, C minor

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#1936577 - 08/02/12 09:07 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Rafterman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/12
Posts: 407
Loc: New York
I feel your pain in the search. I am debating a Kawai RX6 vs. a Shigeru.

I was able to play a Kawai RX6 side by side with a Shigeru SK5.

I really loved the tone of the Kawai RX6. I am still a developing pianist so I am torn between those long bass strings of the Kawai.

If I had to pull the trigger today I would get the RX6 but I am afraid of the buyer's remorse if my taste changes to the Shigeru sound. I am looking for the safe bet! I still need to hear a Shigeru SK7.

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#1936655 - 08/02/12 11:13 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
monads Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/23/12
Posts: 161
Loc: CA
Just be done with it Rafter! Get the Shigeru EX! smile
_________________________
My music_website at http://www.OdysseyofaG.com

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#1936675 - 08/03/12 12:09 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Rafterman]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3556
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Rafterman
I feel your pain in the search. I am debating a Kawai RX6 vs. a Shigeru.

I was able to play a Kawai RX6 side by side with a Shigeru SK5.

I really loved the tone of the Kawai RX6. I am still a developing pianist so I am torn between those long bass strings of the Kawai.

If I had to pull the trigger today I would get the RX6 but I am afraid of the buyer's remorse if my taste changes to the Shigeru sound. I am looking for the safe bet! I still need to hear a Shigeru SK7.


A lot of that Shigeru magic is in the extra touches with the extra voicing and regulation done, and the additional amount done in your home by the master technician. Also, the more mature wood selection makes a difference. But after an RX plays in and matures, plus some fine attention by a good tech and an RX starts to bridge the Shigeru gap. If you have the patience, you can achieve Shigeru-like results for less money. Second-hand can get you the poor man's Shigeru!

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#1936700 - 08/03/12 12:53 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ando]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: ando


A lot of that Shigeru magic is in the extra touches with the extra voicing and regulation done, and the additional amount done in your home by the master technician. Also, the more mature wood selection makes a difference. But after an RX plays in and matures, plus some fine attention by a good tech and an RX starts to bridge the Shigeru gap. If you have the patience, you can achieve Shigeru-like results for less money. Second-hand can get you the poor man's Shigeru!


I wonder how true this is. I believe the sound board and the hammers and strings are significant upgrades as well, so age won't improve any of those things on an RX. As for the fine attention by a good tech, yes this will get any piano to play its best, but only within the limitations of the design and materials. In this case, the design being identical (I believe) between the RX and the Shigeru, it will be the materials that will provide the richer/larger/etc tonal palate that the RX may somewhat lack.
But like others have said about pianos, if you can't tell the difference, then always buy the cheaper one. I for one have preferred every Yamaha C7 to every NY Steinway B that I've tried--so I'm pretty happy about THAT savings if I ever get a bigger piano.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1936712 - 08/03/12 01:15 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
backto_study_piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 413
Loc: Australia
)


Edited by backto_study_piano (08/23/12 05:36 AM)
_________________________
Alan from Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert - she's 7'4" long and ebony) & 2 Allen Organs [long story - the first is for sale] - MDS312 and CF-15.

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#1936713 - 08/03/12 01:18 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ando]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1731
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
.
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http://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

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#1936722 - 08/03/12 01:44 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Dave Ferris]
Rafterman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/12
Posts: 407
Loc: New York
I just wanted to hear more opinions on Kawai RX series vs. Shigeru.

I think the Kawai RX series are a great value for the money.

I am glad someone tweaked one on hear and was very satisfied.

I am still going to try other brands. Taking my time this time around.

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#1936728 - 08/03/12 02:12 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
backto_study_piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 413
Loc: Australia
.


Edited by backto_study_piano (08/23/12 05:35 AM)
_________________________
Alan from Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert - she's 7'4" long and ebony) & 2 Allen Organs [long story - the first is for sale] - MDS312 and CF-15.

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#1937698 - 08/05/12 12:06 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: backto_study_piano]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1608
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: backto_study_piano
Did you consider Grotrian. Much more satisfying piano than a Shigeru - and less outlay. I'm loving my new Grotrian Concert (7'4")


I played a concert a while back with two other pianists on a stage with a Fazioli, Shigeru, and a Grotrian. We took turns playing selections on all three instruments (solo, duet and trio) At the end of the concert we talked backstage and everyone agreed that the Shigeru was the favorite piano of the three. All three were prepped to the nines and in perfect tune. Everyone thought the Shigeru had the richest and most balanced tone of the three and took the least effort to produce the sounds desired by the player. All three pianos where a dream to play. So do be aware that your opinion that the Grotrian is "much more satisfying piano than a Shigeru" is a highly subjective statement.

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#1937704 - 08/05/12 12:25 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
AJF:

Were these all the same size pianos?

Norbert smile
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1937723 - 08/05/12 12:57 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1608
Loc: Toronto
Yes. They were all in the 6 footer range.
Im just trying to illustrate that opinions are soooo subjective when it comes to pianos. So its great that there are so many options out there.

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#1937746 - 08/05/12 01:44 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Thanks AJ!

Off to camping now...long weekend in B.C.!

Norbert thumb
_________________________
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Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1937758 - 08/05/12 02:04 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1111
Loc: chicago, il
well yes of course when it comes to preferences it's subjective but my general rule of thumb is that where commercial affiliations exist to take that subjective opinion and divide credibility by 2.
_________________________
diary of an amateur pianist

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#1937762 - 08/05/12 02:14 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
"...I played a concert a while back with two other pianists on a stage with a Fazioli, Shigeru, and a Grotrian. We took turns playing selections on all three instruments..."

This is just the concert we would like to have a recording of, as discussed in another thread regarding properly recorded examples of different pianos. This would provide a pretty fair basis for comparison (as far as a recording of any piano could do so), fairly well even out confounding variables of recording quality, acoustic environment, and the personal factor of the player.

It's not every day that such a concert is played on any stage or studio. Better than a recording, I would have liked to be there!
_________________________
Clef


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#1937853 - 08/05/12 07:17 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Jeff Clef]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1608
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
"...I played a concert a while back with two other pianists on a stage with a Fazioli, Shigeru, and a Grotrian. We took turns playing selections on all three instruments..."

This is just the concert we would like to have a recording of, as discussed in another thread regarding properly recorded examples of different pianos. This would provide a pretty fair basis for comparison (as far as a recording of any piano could do so), fairly well even out confounding variables of recording quality, acoustic environment, and the personal factor of the player.


It's not every day that such a concert is played on any stage or studio. Better than a recording, I would have liked to be there!


It was a very cool experience (even though I was quite nervous playing alongside some of my favourite pianists in this neck of the woods).
Too bad it wasn't recorded. I would like to have had the opportunity to listen back.

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#1937854 - 08/05/12 07:18 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Norbert]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1608
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Thanks AJ!

Off to camping now...long weekend in B.C.!

Norbert thumb


Me too!
But alas I'm in Ontario and we both know the BEST camping in all of Canada is in B.C. Have fun!

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#1937857 - 08/05/12 07:22 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Entheo]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1608
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: Entheo
well yes of course when it comes to preferences it's subjective but my general rule of thumb is that where commercial affiliations exist to take that subjective opinion and divide credibility by 2.


Fair enough. But my 'commercial affiliations' with Shigeru Kawai came quite awhile after I formed my opinion of their pianos and subsequently purchashed one. And unlike a Steinway endorsement I can still play any piano I like. grin

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#1937858 - 08/05/12 07:24 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
backto_study_piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 413
Loc: Australia
?


Edited by backto_study_piano (08/23/12 05:37 AM)
_________________________
Alan from Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert - she's 7'4" long and ebony) & 2 Allen Organs [long story - the first is for sale] - MDS312 and CF-15.

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#1937866 - 08/05/12 08:04 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: backto_study_piano]
Robert 45 Offline
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Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1220
Loc: Auckland New Zealand
At a guess, I would say, British Columbia in Canada.

Congratulations too on the happy arrival of your amazing new Grotian piano!

Regards,

Robert.

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#1937874 - 08/05/12 08:24 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: AJF]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3556
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: AJF
Originally Posted By: Entheo
well yes of course when it comes to preferences it's subjective but my general rule of thumb is that where commercial affiliations exist to take that subjective opinion and divide credibility by 2.


Fair enough. But my 'commercial affiliations' with Shigeru Kawai came quite awhile after I formed my opinion of their pianos and subsequently purchashed one. And unlike a Steinway endorsement I can still play any piano I like. grin


You can, but you're hardly likely to promote another piano over your own. If you do that, what value does Kawai get from your endorsement? How good would a rival piano have to be for you to give up your Kawai endorsement and seek a relationship with a rival maker? My guess is that you are not going to look your gift horse in the mouth - nor can I blame you. But it does make others question your impartiality.

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#1937878 - 08/05/12 08:37 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
backto_study_piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 413
Loc: Australia
.


Edited by backto_study_piano (08/23/12 05:37 AM)
_________________________
Alan from Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert - she's 7'4" long and ebony) & 2 Allen Organs [long story - the first is for sale] - MDS312 and CF-15.

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#1937880 - 08/05/12 08:39 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
j&j Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 444
Loc: Southwest
ec,

Take your time and play as many different brands in your price range and size that will fit in your allotted piano space. It could get confusing and frustrating, but your ears know the sound you're looking for and you can play at the level that you can really enjoy your piano love when you find it. Best of Luck - let us know your decision.

Alan - congratulations on your new Concert Grotian, Clara. How wonderful!

Rusty - has your piano tech recently regulated your C3? Some Yamahas have a heavier action, but a really good piano tech can work near miracles with both regulation and voicing.
_________________________
J & J
Yahama C3 PE
Casio Privia PX-330
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working." Pablo Picasso

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#1938121 - 08/06/12 10:58 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: backto_study_piano]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
Originally Posted By: backto_study_piano
I can only think that the SK2 & SK6 I played mustn't have been set up right, even though Kawai's 2 MPAs had each done so. [...]


How certain are you that it was Kawai MPA's?
_________________________
The People's Cube


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#1938124 - 08/06/12 11:02 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: AJF]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
Originally Posted By: AJF
[...] Everyone thought the Shigeru had the richest and most balanced tone of the three and took the least effort to produce the sounds desired by the player. All three pianos where a dream to play. So do be aware that your opinion that the Grotrian is "much more satisfying piano than a Shigeru" is a highly subjective statement.


We had the opportunity to compare various Steinways to Shigerus and pretty much came to the same conclusions.
_________________________
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#1938303 - 08/06/12 04:29 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Tribbs]
ec Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Long Beach, CA
OP here--Yesterday I took my duet partner (an accomplished pianist) so we could both road test the aforementioned Shigeru SK-5. I wasn't quite as smitten as on my first visit, and she wasn't impressed at all - the action seemed a tad shallow compared to that of my G-2, and the return rate (is that the right term?) was a little sluggish on rapid repeated notes. It does, however, produce a gorgeous sound in the showroom, esp. well-suited to my preferred repertoire. The same dealer also has a newly arrived pre-owned RX-6 not yet in the showroom. Also sampled others on the floor, including a Yamaha C-4 from 1990 (way too bright, with an exceptionally heavy touch) and a new Petrof grand (don't recall the model, but according to the dealer, Petrof has recently jacked up their prices, so at 80K, we didn't get too analytical about why we didn't care for the sound...)
We had planned to visit a nearby Yamaha showroom, but ran out of time. The dealer offered to have the RX-6 tuned and ready for us for us next weekend as well as having some tweaking done on the SK-5 to counter my observations about key depth and return. Returning home to practice, I realized that nothing I'd played pleased me as much as my humble little G-2. Maybe I've just grown complacent...
_________________________
ec
Long Beach, CA
*********************

Chopin - Nocturne, Op.62, No. 2
Mazurka, Op. 41, No. 1 (C# minor)
Etude, Op. 25, No. 9
Polonaise, Op. 40, No. 2, C minor

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#1938311 - 08/06/12 04:37 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Tribbs]
backto_study_piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 413
Loc: Australia


How certain are you that it was Kawai MPA's?[/quote].


Edited by backto_study_piano (08/23/12 05:39 AM)
_________________________
Alan from Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert - she's 7'4" long and ebony) & 2 Allen Organs [long story - the first is for sale] - MDS312 and CF-15.

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#1938325 - 08/06/12 04:55 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
backto_study_piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 413
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: ec
OP here--Yesterday I took my duet partner (an accomplished pianist) so we could both road test the aforementioned Shigeru SK-5. I wasn't quite as smitten as on my first visit, and she wasn't impressed at all - the action seemed a tad shallow compared to that of my G-2, and the return rate (is that the right term?) was a little sluggish on rapid repeated notes. It does, however, produce a gorgeous sound in the showroom, esp. well-suited to my preferred repertoire. The same dealer also has a newly arrived pre-owned RX-6 not yet in the showroom. Also sampled others on the floor, including a Yamaha C-4 from 1990 (way too bright, with an exceptionally heavy touch) and a new Petrof grand (don't recall the model, but according to the dealer, Petrof has recently jacked up their prices, so at 80K, we didn't get too analytical about why we didn't care for the sound...)
We had planned to visit a nearby Yamaha showroom, but ran out of time. The dealer offered to have the RX-6 tuned and ready for us for us next weekend as well as having some tweaking done on the SK-5 to counter my observations about key depth and return. Returning homer to practice, I realized that nothing I'd played pleased me as much as my humble little G-2. Maybe I've just grown complacent...
.


Edited by backto_study_piano (08/23/12 05:40 AM)
_________________________
Alan from Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert - she's 7'4" long and ebony) & 2 Allen Organs [long story - the first is for sale] - MDS312 and CF-15.

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#1938330 - 08/06/12 04:59 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Gatsbee13 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 505
Loc: So Cal
To the OP: the RX-6 thats coming in (im assuming you went to Kim's piano), is currently on ebay.. i think its listed around 18k and was made in 2007.. seems like a good deal if the piano wasnt abused in the last 5 years. ill have to check it out once it comes in.


Edited by Gatsbee13 (08/06/12 05:00 PM)

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#1938341 - 08/06/12 05:11 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1528
Loc: Danville, California
Originally Posted By: ec
I realized that nothing I'd played pleased me as much as my humble little G-2. Maybe I've just grown complacent...


I guess this proves the old adage "There's no accounting for taste"

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#1938389 - 08/06/12 06:15 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: backto_study_piano]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: backto_study_piano
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
Originally Posted By: backto_study_piano
I can only think that the SK2 & SK6 I played mustn't have been set up right, even though Kawai's 2 MPAs had each done so. [...]


How certain are you that it was Kawai MPA's?


I had the Australian Ssales Manager with me who told me that, and told me th same technician was my MPA as well as will be my normal technician.


Your MPA is not one of those that build the pianos that come from the factory in Japan then, obviously. The ones from Japan work solely on SK pianos. Your bad experience with the two pianos you've auditioned is starting to sound more like a personal gripe against the dealer. Further, a sample of two pianos does not make you an authority on whether the entire line of SK pianos are over-hyped or not.
I'm sure we're all pleased that you've found a piano you like, but I for one find your dismissal of everything else, and especially the Kawai bashing, somewhat tiring.

Happy playing, and try to not discourage others from considering some otherwise excellent pianos by stating myopic views.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1938404 - 08/06/12 06:36 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
backto_study_piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 413
Loc: Australia
?


Edited by backto_study_piano (08/23/12 05:41 AM)
_________________________
Alan from Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert - she's 7'4" long and ebony) & 2 Allen Organs [long story - the first is for sale] - MDS312 and CF-15.

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#1938421 - 08/06/12 07:11 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: backto_study_piano]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: backto_study_piano
The MPAs Kawai use here aren't Japanese, and I know one of them works on other brands (the Petrof dealer told me he services Petrof).

Do yours come from Japan?


In North America they used to, maybe still do, come directly from the factory. Currently I believe Kawai Don Mannino is one of the few local MPAs. As far as I know he has never been part of the building or finishing processes in the factory. So, even though he may be the best local, well, continental, Shigeru tuner in America, I'm not convinced it is the same as working in the factory for years and having an intimate knowledge about what goes into the contruction/regulation/finishing processes. I'd actually be interested in his further input on all this.
It sounds like N.A is the only place that has offered the MPA from Japan. I've heard that in Hong Kong they hire local techs, and it apparently is the same in AUS.
In any event, I'd still suggest that what you've sampled have either been simply not to your taste, or that they weren't prepped properly, or both. But in any case, it makes little sense to continue to berate them in an attempt to dissuade others of their quality.
I started another thread a while ago about how I've never encountered a decent NY Steinway B, but I would never suggest that this must be because they are overhyped, mediocre instruments. On the contrary: I'm still intrigued to find one that matches my expectations from listening to recordings of them.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1938456 - 08/06/12 08:15 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: AJF]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2702
Loc: Atlanta, GA
.


Edited by PianoWorksATL (08/06/12 08:16 PM)
Edit Reason: unneccesary
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

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#1938536 - 08/06/12 10:47 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Furtwangler]
ec Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 78
Loc: Long Beach, CA
Well, in this case, there actually is some accounting for taste. My G-2 is a small grand, but it's always been well maintained--Dampp Chaser on, regular tunings, recently voiced and regulated, etc. It's currently housed in a large room with a vaulted cathedral ceiling that seems to bring out the best in any instrument played therein:) Everyone who plays my piano (many much more accomplished than I) loves the action and the sound it produces. I'm shopping because I've always wanted a bigger piano, and with retirement years in the offing, this is the time to go for it. I could easily finish out my career with this trusty Yamaha, but it's been getting some heavy traffic since I began to host an amateur piano performance group in my home:)
_________________________
ec
Long Beach, CA
*********************

Chopin - Nocturne, Op.62, No. 2
Mazurka, Op. 41, No. 1 (C# minor)
Etude, Op. 25, No. 9
Polonaise, Op. 40, No. 2, C minor

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#1938538 - 08/06/12 10:59 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: backto_study_piano]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1608
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: backto_study_piano
The MPAs Kawai use here aren't Japanese, and I know one of them works on other brands (the Petrof dealer told me he services Petrof).

Do yours come from Japan?


You're misusing the term MPA. There are only 20 some odd worldwide. You're obviously misinformed. And your jab at Shigeru regarding hype only shows your own ignorance. World class award winning pianists have praised the Shigeru line as some of the very best pianos on the planet.

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#1938569 - 08/07/12 12:44 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: AJF]
Robert 45 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1220
Loc: Auckland New Zealand
I agree with AJF that informed, professional opinion from both pianists and piano technicians, rates Shigeru Kawai pianos as among the best instruments in the world.
I have had the opportunity to try the full range of models in overseas showrooms and I have been captivated by the richness and radiance of the sound and the highly responsive action.
I believe that the new Shigeru Kawai "L" series is another step towards creating a perfect piano.

However, I also happily accept that there are other extraordinary pianos available at that level and I would always encourage a prospective buyer to sample as many different pianos as possible.
Whenever the choice is finally made, extol, by all means, the wondrous qualities of the chosen piano, but do not try to justify your preference by denigrating other piano brands.

Vive la différence!

Robert.

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#1938594 - 08/07/12 02:30 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: AJF]
backto_study_piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 413
Loc: Australia
You're misusing the term MPA. There are only 20 some odd worldwide. You're obviously misinformed. And your jab at Shigeru regarding hype only shows your own ignorance. World class award winning pianists have praised the Shigeru line as some of the very best pianos on the planet. [/quote].

[comment deleted]


Edited by backto_study_piano (10/03/12 09:52 AM)
_________________________
Alan from Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert - she's 7'4" long and ebony) & 2 Allen Organs [long story - the first is for sale] - MDS312 and CF-15.

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#1938628 - 08/07/12 05:50 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
sandalholme Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 763
Loc: Dorset, UK
Re my earlier post and the nationality of Kawai's master piano technicians in different countries. There is, or was, at least one Kawai Japanese mpt in the UK. I met him, he spent a day on my RX2. He was definitely Japanese!

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#1938661 - 08/07/12 07:56 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1111
Loc: chicago, il
it appears Kawai's MPA support policies understandably vary from country to country, e.g. sales associated with a country of 22 million vs. one of 311 million and the number (& possibly experience) of regional MPAs. the MPA costs have to be built into the price of the piano, and justification based on # of sales within a region.

on the other hand, this is from the SK website:

"Within the first year of ownership, those who acquire a SHIGERU piano will receive an extraordinary visit from one of the world’s finest piano craftsmen. One of our elite Master Piano Artisans will be sent from Japan..."

hmmm, so which is it -- are they locally based or sent from japan?
_________________________
diary of an amateur pianist

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#1938816 - 08/07/12 02:28 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: sandalholme]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: sandalholme
Re my earlier post and the nationality of Kawai's master piano technicians in different countries. There is, or was, at least one Kawai Japanese mpt in the UK. I met him, he spent a day on my RX2. He was definitely Japanese!


How odd. I understood that the MPA only work on Shigeru, not on the other models. Otherwise, what would stop the 1000s of RX owners from booking appointments with the actual piano builders?
You did put 'mpt' which may be a different designation: technician vs artisan?
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1938840 - 08/07/12 03:09 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3556
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
If the literature states that Kawai will send a Master Piano Artisan from Japan for every new Shigeru, then that's what they should do. Anything less is fraudulent. People buy these things on the promise that it will be adjusted exactly to their personal wishes by somebody with the utmost technical understanding of the manufacturing process and construction. I'm sure there are local technicians who are up to the job, but that's not the point - the MPA from Japan is the guarantee of expertise. I'd be furious if I bought a Shigeru and didn't get what I was promised.

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#1938844 - 08/07/12 03:22 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ando]
Robert 45 Offline
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Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1220
Loc: Auckland New Zealand
There are Kawai experts on this forum who can provide precise information.

On the Kawai North American website it states that the purchaser of a new Shigeru Kawai piano will receive a visit from an MPA or Master Piano Artisan to set up completely the new instrument. I believe that this applies mainly to the USA market.

Australia and New Zealand have, I believe, accredited "MPA" people who refine the piano in the purchaser's home. These people may not have the depth of experience and expertise as the Japanese MPA from the Shigeru Kawai factory. I would agree that Kawai needs to clarify this.

Regards,
Robert.

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#1938853 - 08/07/12 03:36 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ando]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
The Shigeru Kawai Master Piano Artisans (MPAs) are sent from the Shigeru Kawai factory and only work on the Shigeru line.

"A SHIGERU piano is perfected by an elite brand of craftsman. Each of our Master Piano Artisans is at the pinnacle of his profession. With remarkable skills proven in the world's finest concert halls and international piano competitions, each artisan brings a wealth of experience and passion to his craft.

"Upon completion of a finished work, the craftsman adds his name to the piano's rich pedigree as a symbol of devotion and pride.


"Within the first year of ownership, those who acquire a SHIGERU piano will receive an extraordinary visit from one of the world’s finest piano craftsmen. One of our elite Master Piano Artisans will be sent from Japan to provide personalized care for your SHIGERU piano in the form of concert-level tuning, regulation and voicing. Such visits are an exclusive attribute of the SHIGERU brand.

http://www.shigerukawai.com/features/mpa_visit.html

"Fewer than one percent of all Kawai instruments will ever bear the name SHIGERU. The rigorous degree of handwork and use of specially chosen materials keeps these instruments rare in both character and quantity. Each SHIGERU piano is a Limited Edition treasure selectively numbered for North America by year of creation.

...and I certainly don't consider any of the above marketing any more flowery or over the top than the Steinway showroom propaganda I have had to endure.

So I ask again, how certain are you that it was a "Shigeru" MPA that supposedly "tuned" the showroom Shigeru piano you played?
_________________________
The People's Cube


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#1938863 - 08/07/12 04:17 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Robert 45]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3556
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Robert 45
There are Kawai experts on this forum who can provide precise information.

On the Kawai North American website it states that the purchaser of a new Shigeru Kawai piano will receive a visit from an MPA or Master Piano Artisan to set up completely the new instrument. I believe that this applies mainly to the USA market.

Australia and New Zealand have, I believe, accredited "MPA" people who refine the piano in the purchaser's home. These people may not have the depth of experience and expertise as the Japanese MPA from the Shigeru Kawai factory. I would agree that Kawai needs to clarify this.

Regards,
Robert.


Australian salespeople are definitely saying that Kawai sends its own master technicians from the Kawai factory in Japan. I had 2 salesmen tell me that within the last month when I tried them out. Amazing that they think that would go unnoticed when non-Japanese techs with Aussie accents named Bruce show up at their door.

The real point is that it's quite inexcusable that they would fly technicians to the US but not to other countries. Surely every Shigeru owner is as worthy as any other. Why should the country play any role in that? It doesn't cost more to fly to Australia than the US. Hotels cost about the same... It reflects poorly on Kawai, especially when they are trying to create the image of the ultimate piano with the ultimate service.

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#1938866 - 08/07/12 04:25 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ando]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
It's simple. They call it supply and demand.
You put your best people where there is the most demand.

About how many genuine Japan factory Shigeru MPAs do you think exist?
_________________________
The People's Cube


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#1938873 - 08/07/12 05:08 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ando]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: ando
Amazing that they think that would go unnoticed when non-Japanese techs with Aussie accents named Bruce show up at their door.

...hey wait a minute...now that I think of it the one that came to my house seemed to know too much about Fosters Lager and something about putting something on the 'barbie.' I now recognize that the accent he had was more southern than eastern too. Boy am I a fool.

But seriously, I don't think I'd be too impressed with having a local tech come instead of one of the 20 or so artisans. I wonder how educated the sales staff are the you and the other gentleman talked to. Maybe they are also looking at the NA website thinking that the information therein applies to all the Common Wealth countries too.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1938934 - 08/07/12 07:10 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Tribbs]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3556
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
It's simple. They call it supply and demand.
You put your best people where there is the most demand.


Well, either they are flying in from Japan or they aren't. If they aren't they could be considered to be working in America. That's not the myth they are pushing. They are saying that they fly in MPAs specifically to do Shigeru services - whether it's in the US or Australia - presumably they work at the factory when they aren't being called out. If that's the case, they can fly them anywhere. If they aren't factory MPAs coming from Japan, they are just techs like anywhere else.

By the way, don't give me that "way of the world" tone. I didn't come down in the last shower and I don't need your life-lessons. I am expressing an opinion that I don't like deceptive conduct, not that I don't understand what drives such conduct. Of course it's profit driven - no surprise there.

Quote:
About how many genuine Japan factory Shigeru MPAs do you think exist?
I couldn't be less interested. I only care about what they promise and whether they deliver.

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#1938937 - 08/07/12 07:14 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3556
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy


But seriously, I don't think I'd be too impressed with having a local tech come instead of one of the 20 or so artisans. I wonder how educated the sales staff are the you and the other gentleman talked to. Maybe they are also looking at the NA website thinking that the information therein applies to all the Common Wealth countries too.


That may well be the case, but they are representatives of Shigeru Kawai, and Kawai will hear the complaints. Maybe I'll shoot Kawai an email and let them know that this deception is going on and suggest they issue a directive to their non-US dealers not to misrepresent the MPA situation.

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#1938957 - 08/07/12 08:01 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ando]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
It's simple. They call it supply and demand.
You put your best people where there is the most demand.


Well, either they are flying in from Japan or they aren't. If they aren't they could be considered to be working in America. That's not the myth they are pushing. They are saying that they fly in MPAs specifically to do Shigeru services - whether it's in the US or Australia - presumably they work at the factory when they aren't being called out. If that's the case, they can fly them anywhere. If they aren't factory MPAs coming from Japan, they are just techs like anywhere else.

By the way, don't give me that "way of the world" tone. I didn't come down in the last shower and I don't need your life-lessons. I am expressing an opinion that I don't like deceptive conduct, not that I don't understand what drives such conduct. Of course it's profit driven - no surprise there.

Quote:
About how many genuine Japan factory Shigeru MPAs do you think exist?
I couldn't be less interested. I only care about what they promise and whether they deliver.


You don't need an MPA.
You need a bartender.
_________________________
The People's Cube


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#1938958 - 08/07/12 08:03 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
PianoWorksATL Offline
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Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2702
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Currently and in a nutshell, the argument surrounds the idea that only 20 or so people in the whole world are qualified to make their pianos play nicely? And all of those people live in Japan. And even when they loan them out, they only lease them to N.America. That ... kinda sucks. frown

Now I do not believe that to be true, but if that remains the argument here, you are really going to scare everybody from buying a Shigeru. An MPA visit is fabulous. The tuning is only $125 but the round-trip plane ticket from Japan is about $4,000. grin smirk
_________________________
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PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
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#1938977 - 08/07/12 08:39 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Tribbs]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3556
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
It's simple. They call it supply and demand.
You put your best people where there is the most demand.


Well, either they are flying in from Japan or they aren't. If they aren't they could be considered to be working in America. That's not the myth they are pushing. They are saying that they fly in MPAs specifically to do Shigeru services - whether it's in the US or Australia - presumably they work at the factory when they aren't being called out. If that's the case, they can fly them anywhere. If they aren't factory MPAs coming from Japan, they are just techs like anywhere else.

By the way, don't give me that "way of the world" tone. I didn't come down in the last shower and I don't need your life-lessons. I am expressing an opinion that I don't like deceptive conduct, not that I don't understand what drives such conduct. Of course it's profit driven - no surprise there.

Quote:
About how many genuine Japan factory Shigeru MPAs do you think exist?
I couldn't be less interested. I only care about what they promise and whether they deliver.


You don't need an MPA.
You need a bartender.


I've never noticed you before, but a quick scan of your posts reveals you as a Shigeru owner (apologist). That explains your defensive attitude... Shigerus are ok, lying Kawai dealers, not so good.

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#1938978 - 08/07/12 08:41 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: PianoWorksATL]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
Currently and in a nutshell, the argument surrounds the idea that only 20 or so people in the whole world are qualified to make their pianos play nicely? And all of those people live in Japan. And even when they loan them out, they only lease them to N.America. That ... kinda sucks. frown


Ya, I'd say you've gotten this pretty wrong, Sam. The pianos can be serviced by anybody, just as any piano can. However, as you well know, someone that has actually built the piano might have that much more knowledge about voicing, regulating and tuning than another tech that needs to be a jack of all trades in order to make a living. Wouldn't it be nice if they had MPAs for all the performance pianos? Unfortunately they don't and often consumers get a really skewed vision of what a certain brand may sound like, say Estonia, because the prep work from a particular dealer is less than stellar.
Finding a piano that is performing at its peak is hard enough, made even harder when most pianos in most showrooms are barely in tune let alone set up and regulated correctly.
So, unless you've actually heard the difference between a piano that has been tuned and regulated by someone that has intimate knowledge with that particular brand, and a piano that has been set up and tuned by a local tech, then I'd say despite your position as a piano dealer you may be as in the dark as anyone else about the subject.

As for not having MPAs for areas other than North America, yes, that does suck, and if I were purchasing a piano again, I may not have been as convinced to buy a Shigeru over other brands. It appears that Alan (Grotrian guy) found the Shigerus in less than optimal condition, as well as perhaps having a bad ending with that dealer. Either way, it says nothing about the North American market, and how successful the pianos are doing here.
_________________________
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#1938983 - 08/07/12 08:53 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

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#1939002 - 08/07/12 09:16 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2702
Loc: Atlanta, GA
I was just pointing out what someone walking into the room would see and hear, and how far it had gone from someone saying "I did like this, I didn't like that, I don't know why and therefore I'm not good at explaining why."

I've elsewhere praised the emphasis Kawai puts on supporting their SK's. It is a separate and huge problem with customers when someone undermines a really good tech because of official endorsements. The other side of that is when tech egos get too big to take direction. Those will be several long stories that I will never write. At different levels, I've made mistakes and participated in these problems.

We sent 2 techs for specific training in Vienna - Bosendorfer certification. Great training, but I think it took years to work out the endorsement. I've known sub-par techs hired as fill-ins but labeled by a dealer as certified Such and Such technicians go out and wreck someones instrument. I've seen official mistakes as well as insightful management willing to cross lines.

I'll say this. Of all the sales where we competed against SK instruments, win or lose, 75% came down to an obvious preference. I think we broke the 25% that were otherwise a tie by being credible and generally pleasant. smile In the sales where we lost, I don't expect the customers to be particularly articulate in why not us. I have those uncomfortable conversations and only once in a while do I really gain insight. It's okay.
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

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#1939020 - 08/07/12 09:38 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ando]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: ando


That may well be the case, but they are representatives of Shigeru Kawai, and Kawai will hear the complaints. Maybe I'll shoot Kawai an email and let them know that this deception is going on and suggest they issue a directive to their non-US dealers not to misrepresent the MPA situation.


Sydney (Opera house maybe?): http://vimeo.com/39600684
MPA from Japan in Australia.
End of story? I'd contact that dealer again and see what's up.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1939025 - 08/07/12 09:50 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: scepticalforumguy]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7274
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: ando


That may well be the case, but they are representatives of Shigeru Kawai, and Kawai will hear the complaints. Maybe I'll shoot Kawai an email and let them know that this deception is going on and suggest they issue a directive to their non-US dealers not to misrepresent the MPA situation.


Sydney (Opera house maybe?): http://vimeo.com/39600684
MPA from Japan in Australia.
End of story? I'd contact that dealer again and see what's up.


I went through all of the videos and they were of the prep work in Japan and didn't show the work done in Sydney.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1939055 - 08/07/12 10:56 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Entheo Offline
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Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1111
Loc: chicago, il
well the optimistic side of me thinks yeah that'd be cool to have a factory rep come out and tweak my new piano but my far more pessimistic side wonders why the heck i would spend that much on a piano that would not only get past factory QA but dealer prep as well to require such an event to have to occur. for a buck twenty five i have the CSO tech service my machine, and he gets the job done without having to travel 6k miles.

i actually think SKs are great pianos, but as in everything in life, we must be able to separate the sizzle from the steak.
_________________________
diary of an amateur pianist

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#1939065 - 08/07/12 11:17 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
scepticalforumguy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/08
Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
Originally Posted By: ando


That may well be the case, but they are representatives of Shigeru Kawai, and Kawai will hear the complaints. Maybe I'll shoot Kawai an email and let them know that this deception is going on and suggest they issue a directive to their non-US dealers not to misrepresent the MPA situation.


Sydney (Opera house maybe?): http://vimeo.com/39600684
MPA from Japan in Australia.
End of story? I'd contact that dealer again and see what's up.



I went through all of the videos and they were of the prep work in Japan and didn't show the work done in Sydney.


You know, you're right. I just saw the Aus website, and the video and assumed it was actually on site. My mistake.
_________________________
Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.



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#1939128 - 08/08/12 01:05 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
backto_study_piano Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 413
Loc: Australia
[comment deleted]


Edited by backto_study_piano (10/03/12 09:53 AM)
_________________________
Alan from Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert - she's 7'4" long and ebony) & 2 Allen Organs [long story - the first is for sale] - MDS312 and CF-15.

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#1939201 - 08/08/12 07:54 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Tribbs]
chihuahua Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 391
Loc: An Oligarchy
I refer to Shigeru Kawai's website:

http://www.shigerukawai.com/features/mpa_visit.html

My friend lives in Singapore and owns a Shigeru Kawai SK3. Until today, there is no MPA visit from Kawai (despite the PROMISE from Kawai Japan Website). There's only the occasional tuning from the local dealer (no voicing/regulation) - which he has to pay for. So, when it comes to aftersales service in Singapore for Shigeru Kawai, it's as bare as it ever gets!

So much for the "One of our elite Master Piano Artisans will be sent from Japan to provide personalized care for your SHIGERU piano in the form of concert-level tuning, regulation and voicing" bullsh*t.
_________________________
Nepotism: We promote family values here - almost as often as we promote family members.

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#1939228 - 08/08/12 09:10 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
sandalholme Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 763
Loc: Dorset, UK
Re my RX2 and the master piano technician. It was 2 - 3 years back when the piano was about 5 years' old. I had an issue with one or two odd noises, my technician wrote to Kawai supporting my concern. A Japanese mpt had just arrived in the UK. My understanding he was to be resident in the UK. He arrived, spent most of the day regulating and voicing. I am no technician, but he spent a lot of time on the hammers. Result: one much better sounding RX2. For free.

I am quite happy with the way Kawai in the UK supported my purchase.

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#1939303 - 08/08/12 11:43 AM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
albynism Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 321
I'm also thinking of replacing my 1995 G2. I live in Sydney and I went to the finalist concert for the recent SIPC. They had a shigeru, Yamaha and Hamburg Steinway on the stage (holy cow, the three pianos combined cost more than the apartment I live in!), and I remember out of the six finalists only one chose to play on the shigeru, but it was a really beautiful instrument. I think I liked the sound better than the Yamaha and Steinway they had on the stage. they recently were selling off the shigerus that were used in the practice room for the competition. It would have been a great buy because the pianos were only used for a week or so but I was too busy with my schedule to attend the auction. Gah!

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#1939337 - 08/08/12 12:46 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: chihuahua]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1608
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: chihuahua
I refer to Shigeru Kawai's website:

http://www.shigerukawai.com/features/mpa_visit.html

My friend lives in Singapore and owns a Shigeru Kawai SK3. Until today, there is no MPA visit from Kawai (despite the PROMISE from Kawai Japan Website). There's only the occasional tuning from the local dealer (no voicing/regulation) - which he has to pay for. So, when it comes to aftersales service in Singapore for Shigeru Kawai, it's as bare as it ever gets!

So much for the "One of our elite Master Piano Artisans will be sent from Japan to provide personalized care for your SHIGERU piano in the form of concert-level tuning, regulation and voicing" bullsh*t.

Im pretty sure I've read a number of times on this forum that Shigeru does not offer the MPA visit to every country, Singapore being one of them. Your friend's situation sounds to me like an issue between customer and dealer for not being clear. Either that or someone has made assumptions. I highly doubt that a company with such a reputation at stake as Kawai would be "bullsh$tting people" as you suggest.

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#1939405 - 08/08/12 03:10 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
From my own experience visiting a good number of factories in Germany and playing all kinds of high end pianos, the prep and set up has always been the single most important factor.

This is the first thing factory staff itself would point out sometimes discouraging to play certain pianos just fresh of the line.

To suggest that one single visit or application by one factory master tech will keep a piano at it's possible peak is not addressing the nature of the beast.

In fact, the higher the level of service work is, the more it demands to be done repeatedly on same piano.

It sure would be nice to compare notes after equal amount of work is done on a number of different pianos, however in the real world this does not seem to happen overly often.

Norbert



Edited by Norbert (08/08/12 03:10 PM)
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#1939417 - 08/08/12 03:36 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Aaron Garner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/24/12
Posts: 56
Loc: Sacramento, Ca
Maybe I'm way of base here, but I think this whole master technician deal is just a marketing tool and I'm guessing it's built in to the price. I have always used techs who are very well respected with years of experience working and rebuilding high end pianos and I've always gotten what I needed out of my instruments. Non of them were factory trained on a specific brand, but they had incredible ears and knowledge about pianos. Does my M & M not sound as good as it could because I didn't have a special factory technician work on it? I doubt it. Besides, sound and feel are very personal. Btw, just last week I played a Shigeru for the first time and fell in love with it. I wonder if the "master technician" already visited the store? Hmmm!
_________________________
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Full-time music professor (theory) and jazz pianist

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#1939446 - 08/08/12 04:21 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14138
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Aaron:

Feeling same here...

However, in many parts of the world, especially the Orient good techs or "master techs" are a hard commodity to come by.

In our neck of the world they are, as you had pointed out, "not"

In our Vancouver B.C. area alone there are a good number of them as are in all cosmopolitan areas of the U.S.

In Germany, they are 'run-of-the-mill' ["Meisters"] and 100% present at the ever-so-important "End-Kontrolle" of every single maker I know.

Building another castle perhaps would have more magic there...

Norbert wink


Edited by Norbert (08/08/12 10:17 PM)
_________________________
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#1939447 - 08/08/12 04:24 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Aaron Garner]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7274
Loc: Rochester MN
Hi Aaron,

Sure, it's a marketing tool. But it is a very effective one. Kawai out Steinwayed, Steinway!

BTW - Does you piano melt in your mouth, and not in your hand?
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1939479 - 08/08/12 05:27 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Aaron Garner Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/24/12
Posts: 56
Loc: Sacramento, Ca
Points well taken. Speaking of Kawai out doing Steinway, they (a store in the Bay Area) had a Hamburg two pianos over from the Shigeru and although it was really nice, I might have chosen the Shigeru if I had been in the market. The Shigeru had an amazing action and a beautiful tone. I just got my M and H BB a couple of weeks ago, but if I had played this piano, I might have come up with the extra dough with or without a master technician from Japan.
_________________________
2013 Mason and Hamlin BB
Full-time music professor (theory) and jazz pianist

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#1939503 - 08/08/12 06:28 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
AJF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/06
Posts: 1608
Loc: Toronto
If nothing less, what was very cool about the MPA visit I got was the fact that an obviously masterful technician who knew my brand of piano so well that he could build one from the ground up came into my home and spent upwards of 6 hours making sure that the instrument was perfect. Not only did he voice and regulate the Instrument, he did it to MY specific needs and preferences. Call it a gimmick if you like but I thought the whole experience was awesome.

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#1939528 - 08/08/12 07:17 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Furtwangler Offline
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Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1528
Loc: Danville, California
Personally I think it is brilliant.

I have read other posts on here from Shigeru owners (e.g. a guy in Houston a couple years ago) that raved about the MPA and his results with their instrument.

Nobody else does it. I give Kawai a lot of credit.

Disclaimer: I love Shigerus. They are fabulous - IMHO

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#1939597 - 08/08/12 10:25 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: chihuahua]
Jay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 472
Loc: AUD
Originally Posted By: chihuahua
I refer to Shigeru Kawai's website:

http://www.shigerukawai.com/features/mpa_visit.html



I am sure the link you have there for USA and Canada, if you refer to shigeru dealers/contact. It must be a special arrangement made between USA/Canada/Japan only. I dont think I can find anything from Kawai Japan website saying MPA going to visit every Shigeru's owner(s).


Edited by Jay (08/08/12 10:27 PM)

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#1939604 - 08/08/12 10:41 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ec]
Gatsbee13 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 505
Loc: So Cal
anyone have a video or link to one of a kawai MPA in action?

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#1940369 - 08/10/12 02:54 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ando]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
It's simple. They call it supply and demand.
You put your best people where there is the most demand.


Well, either they are flying in from Japan or they aren't. If they aren't they could be considered to be working in America. That's not the myth they are pushing. They are saying that they fly in MPAs specifically to do Shigeru services - whether it's in the US or Australia - presumably they work at the factory when they aren't being called out. If that's the case, they can fly them anywhere. If they aren't factory MPAs coming from Japan, they are just techs like anywhere else.

By the way, don't give me that "way of the world" tone. I didn't come down in the last shower and I don't need your life-lessons. I am expressing an opinion that I don't like deceptive conduct, not that I don't understand what drives such conduct. Of course it's profit driven - no surprise there.

Quote:
About how many genuine Japan factory Shigeru MPAs do you think exist?
I couldn't be less interested. I only care about what they promise and whether they deliver.


You don't need an MPA.
You need a bartender.


I've never noticed you before, but a quick scan of your posts reveals you as a Shigeru owner (apologist). That explains your defensive attitude... Shigerus are ok, lying Kawai dealers, not so good.


I explain to you some economic facts and you call me an apologist? LMFAO!!! What are you smoking?
_________________________
The People's Cube


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#1940378 - 08/10/12 03:06 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Tribbs]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3556
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: Tribbs
It's simple. They call it supply and demand.
You put your best people where there is the most demand.


Well, either they are flying in from Japan or they aren't. If they aren't they could be considered to be working in America. That's not the myth they are pushing. They are saying that they fly in MPAs specifically to do Shigeru services - whether it's in the US or Australia - presumably they work at the factory when they aren't being called out. If that's the case, they can fly them anywhere. If they aren't factory MPAs coming from Japan, they are just techs like anywhere else.

By the way, don't give me that "way of the world" tone. I didn't come down in the last shower and I don't need your life-lessons. I am expressing an opinion that I don't like deceptive conduct, not that I don't understand what drives such conduct. Of course it's profit driven - no surprise there.

Quote:
About how many genuine Japan factory Shigeru MPAs do you think exist?
I couldn't be less interested. I only care about what they promise and whether they deliver.


You don't need an MPA.
You need a bartender.


I've never noticed you before, but a quick scan of your posts reveals you as a Shigeru owner (apologist). That explains your defensive attitude... Shigerus are ok, lying Kawai dealers, not so good.


I explain to you some economic facts and you call me an apologist? LMFAO!!! What are you smoking?


Apologist, yes. You make excuses for something based on your own bias. I'll pass on your explanation of "economic facts" because I don't need it and it's too simplistic. Can't you make your point without aggressive hyperbole?

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#1941983 - 08/13/12 02:01 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: ando]
Tribbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 43
Loc: Madtown
Let me try to make this very simple for you.

You own a handful of bars around the city.

Q) Where is it prudent to employ your best bartender(s)?

A) At the bar that generates the largest revenue.

Nothing apologetic about that fact.

Will you be having the usual? Have a nice day!
_________________________
The People's Cube


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#1941986 - 08/13/12 02:08 PM Re: Yamaha vs. Shigeru and new vs. pre-owned ? [Re: Tribbs]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3556
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
You really enjoy trying to educate me, don't you?

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Today at 07:10 AM
Correct fingering
by johan d
Today at 06:50 AM
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