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Just a small point to add to Gvfarn's post - the actual sequence generated by Yamaha and Casio pianos is:

Note-On
Note-On
Note-On
Note-Off
Note-Off
Note-Off

I.e - an equal number of Note-Offs is sent. If just one Note-Off is sent to a Yamaha, the note will continue to ring, which of course is not right.

Also, there is at least one software piano that does indeed respond to release velocity - Pianoteq.

Greg.

Thanks for all the technical information. Bottom line is still; will the ES output a signal that does 'half keying' in a way that is useful for SW pianos like pianoteq , or is it only the internal sound engine that benefits from this extra info and will the extra 'half key down' information be ignored by the midi output stream. Perhaps James can give an answer to that question (the techies at Kawai must know this) ?

Similar question for release velocity ; I know the keyboard is capable of handling release velocity but will the release velocity info also be send out over midi ?

Why would I like to know ? Because I will mostly use a SW AP and if the ES7 doesn't transmit any more info over midi than my mp6 currently does (triple sensitivity data ) , than my main reason to crossgrade falls through.

Many thanks if this can be made clear.

Regarding the triple-sensor MIDI stream, I would not be very concerned about that. The worst case would be that it only sends standard Note-On/Note-Off pairs. I.e - you will hear a new note every time you repeat the note, regardless of whether you do a full release or a partial release. This is IMHO by far the most important thing. (if you didn't hear a new note at all when you did a partial repeat, that would of course be a complete failure, and there is no way Kawai would do that).

But, let's assume Kawai follow what appears to be a de-facto standard, and it behaves the same as Yamaha and Casio. (I don't know how Roland do it yet). FWIW, I can report that all my software pianos (I only have a few) seem to behave ok with the triple-sensor MIDI. I have not done any careful testing to see how authentic they are though. (I don't have ready access to a real piano, so this would be difficult). I believe there is, or was, a problem with the Vintage D though. This was quite a while ago so I'd be surprised if it hasn't been fixed by now, if it was ever a problem at all.

There's another issue though. The two DAWs I have tested (Ableton Live Lite and Reaper) do NOT properly handle the triple-sensor MIDI, however fortunately, they both at least produce a usable result. Ableton Live will convert the triple-sensor stream into standard Note-On/Note-Off pairs as soon as the MIDI file is imported or recorded. Reaper does slightly better - it will actually retain the triple-sensor stream, but only until the MIDI is edited. As soon as it is edited, it is converted to Note-On/Off pairs. (it was quite a while ago that I did this testing - if this is important for anyone please do your own testing to verify this)

The difference between the triple-sensor stream and standard MIDI is, IMHO, extremely subtle. All it means is that the triple-sensor stream will produce repetitions that are not damped inbetween each repetition. How audible this is depends on how the piano software behaves.

If anyone has found a DAW that retains the triple-sensor MIDI stream, please advise!

Greg.

(here's a thread from a user who seems to have had triple-sensor problems with Galaxy software pianos: Kontakt and 3-sensor keyboards As I say, this could be out of date now. It's a bit long and convoluted, but has some entertaining hat eating ;^)

Greg.

According to one of the ES7 engineers:



And this from another engineer:



Cheers,
James
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Vintage D (maybe Galaxy) did have a problem with triple sensor actions at some point. Casio was mentioned specifically. Not sure if it's true of Roland. Anyway it was fixed in an update.

Yeah, processing the event stream correctly seems like a good thing, but even if you did get note on, note off, note on, note off, a triple sensor action is decidedly better because you can play more quickly--you don't have to wait for the key to come all the way back up before playing again. I kind of suspect that the difference between having the first note sustain through the second and not is not terribly audible, as greg hints.

I was able to play a prototype ES7 for a few minutes. I don't know if there are much differences with the factory machines that are in the shops now, but here are my thoughts:

1) Action;
- lighter to play than the RH and good repetition.
- Seems to be a bit more quiet as well.

The RH and RH II are much more different than I thought. Going back to the RH feels heavier. That can also be a matter of taste / preference; some people like heavier. I personally like it somewhere in between ;-) In short the action feels a bit more like the PHAIII in the Roland FP7F - which I found lighter and faster to play right from the start - before I bought the MP6.

2) Sound;
- AP's similar to the MP sounds.
- Resonance and side effects are too much overdone ! The pedal-off resonance (when you release the damper) is way to loud and present. Same goes for the fall-back effect - hammer fall-back when you release the keys.
- Hall effects are way overdone. The reverb etc in the presets is way to present and long. You immediately feel the urge to turn it off altogether. It's like being on a cheap fair ;-) The hall effects are indeed much better than before though !

In short: the preset programs that are on the (proto-) ES7 are overdone in terms of AP effects (resonance, damper release, key-off (hammer fall-back)) and in reverb. That can be much more subtile . The physical 'effects' of the keybed are subtile , like let-off mechanism, so why not be a bit more conservative in the effects processing section too ?

Conclusion (with my three minutes time of testing):
- much better keybed , which I really like !
- better EFX (Hall/reverb), but way overdone in the presets
- probably better acoustic effects (resonance, hammer fallback etc), but way overdone in the presets.
- speakers can be very loud, but are pretty indirect and they lack the 'bottom' of bigger speakers of course. They are OK , but don't give the impression of really playing a piano. You'll need the CA/CS series for that (but that's not portable;-).

Again: this was a pre-serial ES7 and not a production machine, so the actual presets can be different in the current offerings ! For the keybed it's a real winner for sure. With Virtual Technician you can always dial back some of the effects that are to present. Or perhaps the presets will be more conservative in new firmware.

.

hi Dave,

I subscribe to your enthusiasm about the ES7. I specifically liked the keys and the speaker volume (although it could be a little more 'direct' to my taste). What did you think about the added effects , both AP acoustic effects (like damper off etc) and the reverbs. On the prototype they were pretty obvious and too much to my taste. Could be that:

1) I had to little time to really go through all the details and settings to make a final judgement, although my first impression really was that I would want to dial back all effects.

2) the final models have updated preset programs that make more subtle use of the available processing.

I certainly didn't want to sound to negative, because I really liked the touch of the keybed RH II and basic sounds. Can't wait to see a model in the stores...

JFP, interesting to read your thoughts about the ES7.

I'm just a little curious about how/where you were able to play an ES7 prototype in Holland, though...

Cheers,
James
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So you weren't impressed with the new Kawai wood action in the CA65?

I was wondering the same thing given that the CA65 looks fantastic on paper, especially with the new GF wooden action. I'm very much looking forward to trying the CA65 when my closest dealer (in New Hampshire) has one in stock.

K.

.

Thanks for the clarification, Dave. What was the 'street price' of the new ES7 including the factory furniture stand and the triple-pedal unit?

Cheers,

Kevin

.

Kawai Europe uploaded a couple of ES7 product demonstration videos last night:

German:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Y3diPSex4

English:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD6XvOXrkMk

Note that these videos are rather general in scope, and may not be sufficiently detailed for forum regulars.

Cheers,
James
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"Regarding the effects on the ES7-yeah they were drenched in reverb. "

Yeh, exactly my thoughts. I think the engineers must be really proud on their improved algorithms and are putting it in your face: " here listen to our new reverb , how nice / loud and loooong it is !".

Completely out of context and annoying to my ears and mind. You hear piano drenched in a reverb that sounds like a huge empty stadium, while your ES is standing in front of you in a relatively small space (home / office) and used for practicing. Or worse in a band (making you have to turn the REV off altogether). I assume you can reprogram the presets to have less of this all, but it would be better if Kawai lend someone critical an ES7 and have the presets adjusted more subtle, conservative and realistic settings. I can't imagine anyone would mind if the presets in a next firmware update are less spacey and with more subtle AP resonance effects; lots of effect may impress the ignorant potential customer for a moment , but becomes very distracting very soon when you start to use it in your own environment.

I think I made my point clear; great instrument, great basic sound, but presets need reworking; hope Kawai will listen and take a fresh look at the presets with fresh ears. For my sake someone external and new to the ES with a fresh look...(ear)

J

By the way : I was able to test the ES7 when my MP6 was being fixed. Kawai engineers were so nice to take the unit with them for me to see. Really great service of Kawai !! Small problem with key's in the lowest octaves that made the bottom plate resonate very loud (like hitting the bottom). Problem reported, quick reply from Kawai, engineer comes to my house, problem fixed; as it should be. No questions asked...although I was playing with the thought for a moment of switching to a Numa Piano or Casio (light weight) , I doubt if you get the same service when problems arise ;-)

ES 7 question:

Can you adjust the volume of the internal sound engine in relation to the audio input channels. In other words:

- when you connect the output of a laptop with a software instrument to the input of the ES7 you'll have to adjust the output of the laptop to make it louder or softer in relation to the internal sounds that play along (ES has no input volume control).

- but when you want to decrease the volume of the internal sound, or turn it off altogether; you can't just decrease the volume slider, because than you will decrease the sound of the external input as well (?!). Is there a way to control the volume of internal sound and external sound separately without altering the overall volume. Rather not through sub- sub- sub menu's...

Hope I made my question clear. It would be great to be able to use a software AP together with the AP sounds through the speakers and headphone of the ES in a flexible manner. J

JFP, I'm afraid there is no way to adjust the line input volume on the ES7. The only option is to adjust the volume of the sound source (e.g. the output volume of your computer).

Cheers,
James
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