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I'm not sure I agree. I think the artists have changed or have been rediscovered. With the internet my son has exposed me to an incredible variety of music and also very international set of performers.

Some of his music doesn't appeal to me, it's too foreign (I grew up with Broadway, standards and 70's music with a big gap and then pop music from the late 80 to about 2002), but the more he plugs in his ipod, I find I develop a wider range of tastes.

My daughter's sport requires musical knowledge and I have no classical music in my childhood/adulthood. So we have classical music on the radio and pandora. We learn together with Classics for Kids (a podcast that asks questions, gives information and plays parts of music), then we seek out the full versions and look for live performances. What started out as...uncomfortable...now gives us pleasure.

I think having so much at our fingertips encourages us to stop with the mixed tapes and headphones at home (how I grew up) and puts us in a social/sharing mode for musical discoveries.

Ed,

It seems to me that a big part of this issue should revolve around the question of what constitutes "art". I get the impression that there is some kind of accepted (though unclear, or at least unspecified) definition of "art" in this thread and that, whatever it is, it's somehow opposed to more popular works, which are somehow worse.

I'm not convinced. I think art is a creative work that communicates/recreates an emotion/experience in another person, transfers some part of the artist to the audience and creates in them a certain kind of (intended) mental state. That's not really a great definition (it's probably too broad), but I'm willing to put it out there as a starting point. There are many people in my daily life who do this with tools ranging from music to photography. Their work does "reach inside [me] and take [me] to new places". They may not be pushing creative boundaries or creating new genres, but each has their own perspective on the world and some kind of talent for sharing that perspective. They may not be great artists and they're unlikely to be remembered by posterity, but they're still artists.

Truly great art is rare. I think that's something we often tend to forget because we enjoy the privilege of having inherited the best bits from centuries of output. That's why I pointed out that these sites have millions of songs from thousands of artists. It may be that much of that material is formulaic, uninteresting, etc, but there are also going to be pieces where people are pushing musical boundaries and experimenting with new things (or old things in a new way). Since great art is rare, it's a great thing that we live in a time when so many people can not only create, but also publish and form communities far more easily than they could before. I think that's the enormous benefit of the "uncontrolled medium" that keystring mentioned.

Finally, I think it is (and always has been) quite common to lament the current state of art and the taste of the youth, since art (and youth?) is often about breaking rules and challenging conventions. Isn't that how a new aesthetic develops?

MaggieGirl,

Everything, every symphony, every sonata, each chord, each voicing, different timbre, every genre of music from every period - everything that I love (and most of what I hate) was new to me at sometime. Just a couple of weeks ago I learned that Saint-Saëns scored a piece for glass flute - pretty unique sound. Discovery is wonderful, and it is certainly not a new phenomenon.

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Thurisaz,

If the Greeks and the Romans were unable to figure it out, I have little confidence that we can.

When I refer to ARTISTRY, and the disappearance of the Musical Artist, I am not thinking of musical types or forms or genre, but rather about the LEVEL at which that music is composed, or performed, or recorded, or even published. Are there unspoken standards, standards that are simply understood among better musicians? Of course. Most of the teachers on this Forum can listen to someone play or sing for a minute, and make an evaluation - That was good. That was not good. That was wonderful. Back to the drawing boards.

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I suspected this would engender a great discussion, and it has so far.

Now I am hoping we can start to explore the actual REPLACEMENT of the better Musical Artists, including Craftsmen and Craftswomen - how that is happening. Is it really an organic and natural process, as some are implying, or is it artificial, contrived, and profit-driven?

Ed

Maybe folks are taking a break from this subject because they feel everything has been said. Or perhaps the sentiment is reflected by Scott, as in each of us do what we can to reverse the trend, and hope it is effective. Maybe even the topic is just so hopeless that no one wants to dwell upon the sad facts. How about that cyclical aspect to which some have alluded, where nothing is as “good” as it used to be? It could be that enough of us on the Forums think this evolution from the “old” Music Business into something newer and more exciting, will more than make-up-for the current problems.

Regardless, before leaving the subject, I would like to take one more look at the severe impact the current STATE OF MUSICAL AFFAIRS is having upon the art that we all profess to love. Naming the first that come to mind, here is a listing of the musical ARTISTS and Business People who are being replaced by various flavors and guises of technolory:

Professional soloists
Orchestra players
Composers
Arrangers
Copiests

Music teachers
Piano (and other instrument repair) technicians

Orchestra managers
Concert promoters
Concert hall and theater managers & employees

Sound engineers
Recording engineers
Mixers
Recording studio owners, managers, and employees
Manufacturers of HIGH-END recording and reproducing equipment

Retail Music Stores & their People
Wholesale Music Distributors

Musical Instrument Craftsmen/Craftswomen, and Designers
Musical Instrument Manufacturers and their People (pretty big!)

The entire Music Printing and Publishing Industry (pretty big!)

I am simply not certain everyone grasps the enormity of the loss.

Double Post!

I often worry, being that I'm only 32, that I might not be able to make a decent living teaching piano throughout my lifetime. At least not without drastically changing the way I do things. The internet and other new forms of media are likely to become increasingly more difficult to compete with, both as a source of information and as a distraction. Not to mention the potential of being left in the dust by some new way of doing things that hasn't even been thought of yet. Like perhaps some highly-engaging interactive digital music experience... like merging Skype lessons and video games. So yes, I just try to spread my values through teaching and hope that enough people will be able to see the importance of things like music. Things that keep us grounded and in the present moment.

Scott,

I liked it when you first wrote it above, and I like this second round even more! Living fully in the present comes with our heritage. Fortunately, it can also be taught.


Nothing is going to compete with the www in the Distraction Department for a very long time.

With that said, it seems to me that you in particular, and several other teachers on this Forum, have something very UNIQUE that you are offering your students, and therefore, offering to music in general. If the time comes when you feel the need to compete with technology, make certain that you compete ON YOUR TERMS by highlighting that UNIQUENESS to set yourself apart.

Scott, I got to know that kinds of things you represent as teacher and musician through your personal site on the Internet. I vaguely recall that you posted because of a parent who didn't get what you were doing (and probably only went by impressions rather than learning more about what you do), and that's why I looked. What I saw was enough that if I lived in the area and was looking for a teacher I would look you up. How much can a teacher represent what he does and his values in a personal meeting, on the phone, or in a brochure.

Don't let doomsday predictions get to you. I remember the "good old days". I had 6 months of lessons in the late 1960's when the rural school bus dropped me off at the "piano teacher's" house. She cooked while I played. Almost 30 years later I discovered how key signatures worked, and I was boiling mad that it was that easy and I'd been locked out for that long. We were stuck in ignorance back then, with no easy road to knowledge. Back then you'd be competing with the lady whose house happened to be off the school bus route. Now you can let people know what you represent, and people can also find out what piano and music are about so they absorb what you do with more discernment.

Yes, the hucksters will use the Internet the way they have always used any medium to sell cheap wares to the lowest common denominators, and be the loudest and most visible. But that's not all that is out there. We, the consumer, can finally get information on sites such as this one, so that when we look for a teacher we can ask the right questions, and listen for the right noises. Therefore we are more likely to choose the teacher who offers substance than the one who offers "fast and easy".

I was in the situation only 10 years ago was a parent of an early teen who was a serious late starter. If I'd had the information that I have today, I would have done a few things differently and would have known how to handle things that came up better than I did.

You've got a communication tool out there. It can give you visibility. And the consumer might also be changing and becoming savvy over time because there is information now.

Thanks Ed for this very good piece of advice...



And Keystring thanks for your support and advice as well.

I think this a good starting point (also I wanted to say I think it's a pretty good description of art). This thread has me thinking of how my own appreciation of music evolved from hearing the same music everyone else was doused in from radio and TV to eventually becoming curious enough to explore far off the beaten track and falling in love with the classics. I remember walking to school with Beethoven in my diskman, not really knowing anything about the music but intuiting that there was depth to it. I believe that's how most people experience art, not so much a cerebral thing but if exposed to it they will sooner or later find themselves captivated.

It's this hunger for the transcendent in art that is what will keep musicians going. As ridiculous and contrived as marketing can be, the moment that someone experiences what they haven't been exposed to on TV they will feel it (well ok, IF they're paying any attention and don't have angry birds on their iphone). I read an article by Stephen Nachmanovich on the topic a few days ago: http://www.freeplay.com/Writings/Mountain_of_Gold.pdf

This may all be a given, but what about the whole business of being a professional musician? I'll admit right now that my professional experience is limited to playing for a church, a little accompaniment and a few students. What first came to mind was how in every biography I've read of musicians there were stories of them having to wheel and deal with employers and publishers or put on shows themselves. There's a Beethoven quote about having to be half businessman in order to survive in the arts.

Maybe with the rise of the music industry the musicians gradually became less involved in the business end of things until it fell out of their hands. I still feel that if someone has something good to offer, if they get their hands dirty and put it out there people will like it. I know people in (to be blunt about it) fairly mediocre bands who are out there touring and the only difference is that they took it upon themselves to call up venues and book shows.

Thanks!



I think so, too. I have no professional experience, but it seems to me that the music industry is about creating products, not art. As a result, although there may be much more music out there these days, not all of it is a genuine attempt to say something or be creative.

Modern technology (from digital music workstations to the internet) may be a burden as much as it is a boon in this case. Just about anyone can put together a track (or an album) these days, which should make it much easier budding artists out there...on the other hand, it also means that the signal to noise ratio is that much lower.

A great (and rare) interview in which Robert Fripp talks about artistry vs. the music industry.

Sorry to admit, I am unfamiliar with Robert Fripp, and I sure do not know “Schizoid Man”, but from that very sparse article, it appears that his philosophy is close to mine: Highly artistic, professional musicians should not allow their works to appear alongside all those “also ran” musical offerings in that giant, virtual grab-bin we call www. Further, if those top musicians (and their heirs) continue to allow their offerings to be consumed (viewed, sampled, downloaded, copied, distributed) without compensation, soon there will no longer be “professional musicians”. In the context of this thread, they will be ALLOWING themselves to be replaced.

Ed

Not allowing the topic to drift off into oblivion just yet, here is a current, and an all-too-common discussion on the Non-Classical Forum, about finding a piece of music:

https://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...0Book%20recommendation?.html#Post1930626

How long does it go on before someone has the brilliant idea of visiting a REAL music store? TEN suggestions, and then, when SamASAP finally does mention it, it is as a casual thought, along with more internet options. What a shame that we are in the habit of thinking about local resources for music LAST.

Ed

I just got off the phone with a real music store and ordered the books that I need. Had I gone into the store I would not have found what I was looking for, since stores have to cater to the wishes of local clientele who for the most part may be hobbyists or just happen by. They had to order in the Mozart edition I was looking for. Guaraldi was in stock since Peanuts is popular, but I was able to make sure I did not get the yellow simplified version. Had I not had a teacher, then I would have had to rely on information found on sites such as this one.

I live in the country's capital. There is one single store catering to "classical" teachers, the RCM exam system and such. My Mozart probably would have been there. Guaraldi - less likely. I support any local business which gives personal service and is staffed by people who know their trade. But I have had to resort to on-line purchase more than once. If I lived out in the sticks the chances of finding any book store or music store that didn't sell more than tripe would be remote. It wasn't that different in the "good old days" either. I'm sure that small-town America isn't that different.

Currently if I want to find a well written book of some depth, book stores are not the place to go. There is an industry out there that calculates what "sells" to the masses who are deemed to be devoid of brain cells and shun originality. We find this in music, literature, and "entertainment".

There is a big industry out there, Ed. I've told staff in stores my wishes as a customer, and been told "Yes, you're not alone. However, "head office" insists that we do X and sell X." It starts there, and not the Internet. Of course Big Industry will also try to take advantage of the Internet and play the same games.

I think that we can USE this tool to our advantage to GET BACK the choices that some people in some regions might once have had. Maybe we can expand our people-base. Maybe somebody will wake up somewhere?

Brava for ordering from the local store! And, at the same time, is it not disappointing that they have been reduced to stocking such banal fare? Perhaps - just perhaps - feeling the pressure to simply survive, to sell SOMTHING at a profit, since the Mozarts and Schirmer’s Beethoven Sonate are being purchased “through other channels”.


=OR= rely on one of those knowledgeable musician/store clerks from “the good ol’ days” who would have asked, “Easy or advanced edition?” By the way, I have a couple of jazz records featuring Vince Guaraldi before he discovered his Peanuts - pretty wild stuff!

We people have always had to work a little harder to find the best things, and not just while shopping for music. You, and I, and a bunch of others here believe it is worth the extra effort. But then, as you so correctly imply, finding those best things is becoming increasingly difficult. There is incredible economic pressure to cater to the lowest common denominator, and even that bar continues to be lowered.


It is not just the internet, but the general mentality of exhausting ALL OTHER RESOURCES before purchasing something locally, and from a real store. Sears, Roebuck, & Co. , arguably at one time the largest mail-order operation in the world, used to sell trumpets, trombones, Bb clarinets, and probably flutes, too. Ed LoPresti would have the same complaint about purchasing an instrument from Sears, as opposed to from the local music store, as he does about purchasing whatever from Amazon. Worse yet, the practice of downloading, and becoming one’s own publisher, although my real issue is with the mechanism that allows this to happen.


I sincerely would like to hear more about this idea.
Ed