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#1936292 - 08/02/12 10:58 AM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Bogs]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Don is right. I've called Kawai, Yamaha, Steinway, Bosendorfer, Young Chang, Baldwin and many other companies lots of times over the years for various reasons. I have always gotten the right person from the start, have always gotten answers and good ones at that to any and all questions that I had to ask, particually at Kawai and Yamaha.

I always get my calls returned, emails answered in full and have been extremely happy with their vast knowledge which is way more than mine in many cases which I readily admit. That's one of the reasons we call them after all, with questions and problem solving if we do not have the answer along with other things that we encounter that we need help with or for warranty issues---the go ahead to fix it sign from them.

I have no complaints whatsoever about the technical department at Kawai and I've dealt with them A LOT over the years. They are great listeners that will add my input or suggestions toward solving any future problems that may exist if what I suggest helps....

Don in particular, has always been extremely helpful and gracious with his time with him with any and all questions or issues that I have brought up and, we have solved all of them between us.

I still wonder, why a person would do this to a piano or anything else in the first place? Again, what purpose does it serve?
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1936295 - 08/02/12 11:07 AM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 752
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT
I still wonder, why a person would do this to a piano or anything else in the first place? Again, what purpose does it serve?


Once again: Because it simply can't be avoided in an acoustic piano. Listen to your instruments.

And why would a DP manufacturer emulate this? Because he wants a realistic simulation of the acoustic piano. - Of course there are many acoustic effects around in a piano, and the choice of the ones to emulate is always debatable.
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK-2, etc.

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#1936307 - 08/02/12 11:27 AM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Bogs]
Emmery Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2328
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
maurus, I can pick up the fundamental tone of that C note in the sound clip with my spectrum analyzer, with my ETD, and audibly with my ears. This is coming via my computer speaker. I can't pick up that same frequency on my 2 acoustic piano with any of the equipment, or my ears. Okay, so maybe some people pianos exibit this slightly more where they can. I doubt however that its as loud as the sound sample, or contains just the one frequency.

Also, introducing an additional frequency into a tone which is based on +/- the 12th root of 2 serves no harmonic/musical purpose. Additionally, piano performers are not taught to, nor does any musical score indicate to strike a key on the piano so slowely/softly to not sound it...there is no "Zero Forte". Its an impractical application because a played and held note can sustain up to 10-15 seconds on its own. Most importantly, the DP would display this same phenomenom if the sustain pedal was held down...because an acoustic piano would. Holding that C key down or applying the sustain are the same thing... a process that lifts off the damper.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1936309 - 08/02/12 11:28 AM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Bogs]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
I must have missed your reply the first time. wink

But, holding a note down, slowly letting it down, then playing surrounding notes around it, most certainly can be avoided. That part, is intentional and is what I'm wondering about. What for, how come? smile .

And yes, holding one note down, and playing others around it will elicit strange sounds from other places in the piano. So long as the damper is lifted, even your voice will come through more strongly on certain notes than on others. wink
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1936312 - 08/02/12 11:36 AM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Bogs]
maurus Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 752
Ah, perhaps I misunderstood your question, Jerry. Of course it is indeed rather improbable that someone silently presses a key and then plays around it. But in experimental music you never know - I've heard many interesting things. And, closer to the usual things: (1) Play a chord, say F major, hold it with one hand, and play some black keys in between - what gives? Or: (2) Use the sostenuto pedal. smile

A piano is a terribly complex instrument, and one should never say never. It does what it does.

PS. I really don't know what's up with Emmery's ears or instruments...
_________________________
Shigeru Kawai SK-2, etc.

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#1936344 - 08/02/12 12:43 PM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Bogs]
Emmery Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2328
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
maurus, even the 30th partial off a string is present in a string's sound. Do we recognizably hear it? No. Do DP's emulate it, no. Do we use it in tuning intervals? No. If we eliminated it, would it matter? No.

The complex, wide spectrum energy from the hammers impulse can move via the bridge/soundboard over to another note to induce vibration in it...and not just the string beside it. Its just not very loud, nor is it supportive, because it does not share sympathetic resonance the way ghosting tones do with related string harmonics.

There are numerous sounds which are present on an accoustic piano which are not even related to strings. The bump sound of a key stick on the balance rail precedes the string sound by several thousandths of a second. This is more evident and easier to reproduce on a DP (same tone), yet to date, DP manufacturers haven't bothered to.

So why would they reproduce an un related, non harmonic, non sympathetic tone on only adjacent keys, and not have the sustain pedal do the same, or do it the same way on all keys. This minute sound would also be there from non adjacent keys also. Wave energy does not decrease with the inverse square law in solid objects like the bridge, as it does in air.


Edited by Emmery (08/02/12 12:48 PM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1936742 - 08/03/12 04:16 AM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Bogs]
Chris Leslie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 452
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Although I cannot get this effect on my piano, or others when I thought of it, I happened to try it today on a 60s Rogers and got the effect at about the same level intensity as in the video irregardless of using staccato jabs or not - (Ando). So there you go: some do, some don't.
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Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#1936748 - 08/03/12 05:26 AM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Chris Leslie]
Bogs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/17/10
Posts: 132
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
So there you go: some do, some don't.


It's what I think too. But the question still remains why some do and some don't. We've heard possible explanations why they do:
1. mechanical energy is transferred to the adjacent string by the not-rigid (free to vibrate) parts of the piano
2. an undamped string is influenced by frequencies very close to its own ( first image on the right ) - although I have my doubts about his one, I'm waiting for a qualified person to comment

Now why are there pianos that don't exhibit this behavior? Both no.1 and no.2 easily apply to all pianos...

P.S: I wish everybody would cooperate and that this thread would not turn into 'I'm right, because I can hear it on my piano'/'You're wrong, because I can't hear it on mine'. This is the reason I posted this in the piano tuners section, because I though people here would deal with a lot of pianos, not just their home one [the Piano section] and thus not be biased.

I'm also not interested if this is wanted or not - good or bad, I would like to know why it's audible on some and not on others
_________________________
old Gaveau upright & Kawai CA63; previously Korg SP250

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#1936799 - 08/03/12 09:09 AM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Bogs]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1795
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Bogs
Originally Posted By: Chris Leslie
So there you go: some do, some don't.


It's what I think too. But the question still remains why some do and some don't. We've heard possible explanations why they do:
1. mechanical energy is transferred to the adjacent string by the not-rigid (free to vibrate) parts of the piano
2. an undamped string is influenced by frequencies very close to its own ( first image on the right )

I'd look for natural resonances in each piano, as suggested by the first para of your Wikipedia reference.

In physics, resonance is the tendency of a system to oscillate at a greater amplitude at some frequencies than at others. These are known as the system's resonant frequencies (or resonance frequencies). At these frequencies, even small periodic driving forces can produce large amplitude oscillations, because the system stores vibrational energy.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#1936811 - 08/03/12 10:00 AM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Bogs]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6333
Loc: France
natural "resonances" occur also from dampened strings. on tall verticals damping is not very efficient (as it was on first old forte pianas)

But even when it is, I blieve that some reaction remain from the damped strings, that can participate to the tone of the played notes
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#1936835 - 08/03/12 11:15 AM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Withindale]
Bogs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/17/10
Posts: 132
Originally Posted By: Withindale
I'd look for natural resonances in each piano, as suggested by the first para of your Wikipedia reference.


But this behavior happens for all the notes! It's not just the (C,C#), (C,B) combination, it's all (tone, semitone) combinations. So natural resonances are ruled out.
_________________________
old Gaveau upright & Kawai CA63; previously Korg SP250

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#1936843 - 08/03/12 11:38 AM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Bogs]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1795
Loc: Suffolk, England
Bogs

You asked why some acoustic pianos and not others produce tones from adjacent strings that are not sympathetic vibrations. Please clarify why you rule out natural resonances.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#1936862 - 08/03/12 12:19 PM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Bogs]
Emmery Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2328
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Ian, natural resonances and sympathetic vibration only occurs when an identical or extremely close identical frequency is exiting an object. A truck passing on the street can cause a window pane to rattle on anearby home. The rattling will stop when they change speeds or gears on the vehicle.

When a note is struck on the piano and another note is undampened, the other note gets two distinctive types of excitation. The first to occur is the shock force from the hammer being transfered via the string to bridge to soundboard and the solid construction of these materials convey this initial attack force energy to other strings. This initial wave energy is not structured harmonically like strings are, and is extremely wide spectrum as far as frequencies go. It will create "noise" on another string but it lacks the transverse force of a hammer hit to really create any significant amplitude. This force is physically conveyed through the termination points (ends of the speaking length of the string) not at an ideal anti node location like where a hammer hits.

A secondary vibration energy occurs after this attack on the initially struck string and it does follow a structured spectrum of specific harmonics. This too will convey energy via the parts of the piano, as well as through the air around it. This energy will produce resonance and sympathetic vibration if it closely matches in fequency on any of the harmonics/partials. Two adjacent notes don't share any close harmonics on the lowest most audible portion of the ladder. This is why the sound some people are hearing is so faint in comparison to resonant produced sound on related notes.

On the pianos I listened to for these effects on adjacent notes, I actually pick up a lot more high fequency excitation than I do recognizable lower partials. It could be that high order partials might be close enough to each other because of varying inharmonicity that accompanies them, or, and I'm speculating here...the unstructured force wave of the initial hammer impact conveys a strong portion of high frequency energy in its spectrum.



Edited by Emmery (08/03/12 12:22 PM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1936874 - 08/03/12 12:49 PM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Bogs]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6333
Loc: France
you also could hear some of the wave produced by the back and forth move of the bridge (quadratic effecr is the name) but this is supposed to produce frequencies that are fundamental x 4 (or x2, I am just unsure).

What I heard is out of the spectra, so it can be longitudinal waves. Try to rub the strings with a resin impregnated cloth if you want to be sure. ( that isw a mean to evaluate moe of a string)


Edited by Kamin (08/03/12 01:01 PM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1936917 - 08/03/12 02:08 PM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Bogs]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1795
Loc: Suffolk, England
Emmery, agreed.

Your analogy with trucks and windows is a good one. The window rattles because it has a certain predisposition to do so.

As you will know better than me, the actual frequency spectra of piano notes can be far from the regular set of partials one might expect. There are the quadratic effects and longitudinal waves that Kamin mentions, along with phantom partials and other effects related to the bridge, soundboard resonances, etc.

Going back the Wikipedia quote, which puts it well, even small periodic driving forces can produce large amplitude oscillations at some unexpected frequency or other.

I have no idea why that Kawai digital piano sounds as it does or why any acoustic piano should behave in a similar way across the keyboard.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#1936945 - 08/03/12 03:21 PM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Bogs]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2545
Loc: PA
Why anyone considers Wikipedia even remotely reliable is beyond me. Seriously.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1936978 - 08/03/12 04:15 PM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Withindale]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6042
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Emmery, agreed.

Your analogy with trucks and windows is a good one. The window rattles because it has a certain predisposition to do so.

.


The analogy is not a good one as it is not an example of sympathetic vibration. It is an example mechanical vibration. The window pane rattles because it is loose in its frame, not because it is sympathetic to another source. The mechanical energy is being supplied by the passing truck, transmitted through the ground, into the house, and to the window frame which rattles the glass in contact with the window frame. The speed of the truck, or the gearing, would have no effect as the resonant fundamental frequency of the glass pane is far above the mechanical frequency of the truck. The glass pane rattles, and thus creates its own sonic projection.

A sympathetic vibration, at the same fundamental as the glass, with sufficient amplitude projected, would cause the glass to shatter and not rattle.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1937010 - 08/03/12 05:15 PM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1795
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Emmery, agreed.

Your analogy with trucks and windows is a good one. The window rattles because it has a certain predisposition to do so.


The analogy is not a good one as it is not an example of sympathetic vibration.


Marty, you are right in general, but Emmery's window was exhibiting sympathetic vibration for the sake of the argument!
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#1937012 - 08/03/12 05:23 PM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Loren D]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1795
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Why anyone considers Wikipedia even remotely reliable is beyond me. Seriously.


Yes, you need to be judicious, but the passage I quoted is correct.

The Tahoma Bridge disaster is a famous example of natural resonance.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#1937014 - 08/03/12 05:30 PM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Bogs]
Emmery Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2328
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
I believe you are incorrect Marty, the window pane is a good analogy of sympathetic vibration. If you google it specifically with the + sign and "sympathetic resonance", the exact analogy is present in numerous physics, science and acoustic articles...along with Wikipedia (under "sympathetic resonance"). It was not my own analogy, I was simply aware of it from reading it numerous times over the years.

The front hood on automobiles are actually constructed in such a way to avoid the same resonance caused from engine noise. Because it uses so much flat sheet steel, it needs to be constructed in a way to withstand the engines' entire RPM range.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1937015 - 08/03/12 05:31 PM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6333
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Emmery, agreed.

Your analogy with trucks and windows is a good one. The window rattles because it has a certain predisposition to do so.

.


The analogy is not a good one as it is not an example of sympathetic vibration. It is an example mechanical vibration. The window pane rattles because it is loose in its frame, not because it is sympathetic to another source. The mechanical energy is being supplied by the passing truck, transmitted through the ground, into the house, and to the window frame which rattles the glass in contact with the window frame. The speed of the truck, or the gearing, would have no effect as the resonant fundamental frequency of the glass pane is far above the mechanical frequency of the truck. The glass pane rattles, and thus creates its own sonic projection.

A sympathetic vibration, at the same fundamental as the glass, with sufficient amplitude projected, would cause the glass to shatter and not rattle.


I believe you have the point ther..(while I heard windows vibrating with piano tones )I will try to test more tomorrow, but yet, what I hear is either longitudinal waves exited by the bridge, ore a mix of high partials creating new sounds (those are not high treble ringing, and certainly not a little segment of wire exited somewhere)

It is easy to test so to know which sound is heard..
There is also indeed a part of fundamental exited just because the bridge vibrates enough (small grand Pleyel) clearly audible, on a large part of the scale for those last)

All those unsuspected tones are what makes the sound of real pianos lively and rich.


Edited by Kamin (08/03/12 05:35 PM)
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#1937022 - 08/03/12 05:42 PM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Olek]
Emmery Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2328
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Kamin

...All those unsuspected tones are what makes the sound of real pianos lively and rich.


....or sound rinky tink, like many spinets.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1937040 - 08/03/12 06:20 PM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Jerry Groot RPT]
Chris Leslie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 452
Loc: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Originally Posted By: Jerry Groot RPT

I still wonder, why a person would do this to a piano or anything else in the first place? Again, what purpose does it serve?


If some pianos have this effect then there may be implications for the sonority of the piano when using the sustain pedal. I would imagine increased cacophony if many adjacent un-dampened notes are more easily excited at their fundamental.
_________________________
Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au

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#1937111 - 08/03/12 10:27 PM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Emmery]
Minnesota Marty Online   content

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6042
Loc: Rochester MN
It is not a good analogy as a rattle of a window pane is not caused by sympathetic vibration. Rattle is the key word. A "rattle" is due to mechanical vibration, through direct, or conveyed, contact with the source of the mechanical energy.

I need not check additional sources in reference to my expertise in the properties of acoustic dynamics.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1937116 - 08/03/12 10:52 PM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Emmery]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1540
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Emmery
nor does any musical score indicate to strike a key on the piano so slowely/softly to not sound it...

Check out "Musica Ricercata" by Ligeti which does just that often esp. in the first two pieces which are the only ones I can play.

I would guess to enhance "realism" they just added a cheap tweak to excite other notes a bit when you strike any key. Sounds more random, i.e., like the real thing.

Kees

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#1937143 - 08/04/12 12:48 AM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: DoelKees]
Emmery Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2328
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Emmery
nor does any musical score indicate to strike a key on the piano so slowely/softly to not sound it...

Check out "Musica Ricercata" by Ligeti which does just that often esp. in the first two pieces which are the only ones I can play.

I would guess to enhance "realism" they just added a cheap tweak to excite other notes a bit when you strike any key. Sounds more random, i.e., like the real thing.

Kees


Kees, I've heard linguolabial trills with more depth and musical quality than what Musica Ricercata has to offer...I'm sad to say. When an artist gathers enough recognition to put out trash or nothing as an example of their work...the only thing more silly are the critics who waste their breath talking about it.

Its in the same league as Cages' 4' 33" (opening and closing the piano lid)....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypmW4Yd7SY

and Robert Rauschenbergs' "White Paintings"...






Edited by Emmery (08/04/12 12:50 AM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1937146 - 08/04/12 12:59 AM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Emmery]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1540
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Emmery
nor does any musical score indicate to strike a key on the piano so slowely/softly to not sound it...

Check out "Musica Ricercata" by Ligeti which does just that often esp. in the first two pieces which are the only ones I can play.

I would guess to enhance "realism" they just added a cheap tweak to excite other notes a bit when you strike any key. Sounds more random, i.e., like the real thing.

Kees


Kees, I've heard linguolabial trills with more depth and musical quality than what Musica Ricercata has to offer...I'm sad to say. When an artist gathers enough recognition to put out trash or nothing as an example of their work...the only thing more silly are the critics who waste their breath talking about it.

Its in the same league as Cages' 4' 33" (opening and closing the piano lid)....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypmW4Yd7SY

and Robert Rauschenbergs' "White Paintings"...





Tastes differ. I like Musica Ricercata quite a bit and so did Stanley Kubrick who used it (mvmt 2) in his last movie.

Regarding Cages' 4' 33" I performed it once in a version lasting 3 minutes (4'33' is just the title, the piece can be any length) on recorder (the piece is for any instruments, not piano as many people think). Instead of closing the piano lid during the piece as David Tudor did I took my recorder apart.

Needless to say it was tuned in an unequal temperament. smile

Kees

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#1937161 - 08/04/12 03:31 AM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Bogs]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6333
Loc: France
I like LIGETI probably pne of the best composers, much humor, no much posture .

I hate "music" that have as a prerequisite to put the metronome at 120
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Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1937250 - 08/04/12 10:25 AM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Bogs]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3722
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Bogs
[...] I don't have access to an acoustic other than my teacher's piano, so I wanted to know if this behavior is indeed normal [...]


Well, I was just going to lurk, but I had to try this on the two working pianos I have at hand. The effect is very clear on the Lester spinet. After testing C4, I played a few other random keys, and G4 rings very prominently when held silently and the adjacent semitones are played. So, I went to the Haddorff upright. The C4 does not ring very prominently when tested this way (though it does ring), and, when tested, G4 rings very prominently against the semitones. I am not educted enough to speculate on the cause--mechanical, sympathetic, angelic. Anyway, Bogs, thought you'd want to know. It seems that it is a property of my two old acoustic pianos, at least, and from a previous discussion in Pianist Corner, I will throw my hat into the ring with those who suppose that what you discovered is a deliberate decision by the DP designers to try to get the right piano noises into the DP...

--Andy
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I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#1937287 - 08/04/12 12:25 PM Re: Kawai Resonance Issue [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Emmery Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2328
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
It is not a good analogy as a rattle of a window pane is not caused by sympathetic vibration. Rattle is the key word. A "rattle" is due to mechanical vibration, through direct, or conveyed, contact with the source of the mechanical energy.

I need not check additional sources in reference to my expertise in the properties of acoustic dynamics.


Just about every disaster and miscalculation involving the oversite of "experts", was preceded with the famous words in your quote I have put in bold. The expertise of the numerous people using the definition I used is known...you not bothering to verify it does not make it invalid..other than in your own mind. Your own "expertise" however appears self proclaimed, and not important enough to even put in your signature.

Marty, the word "rattle" has numerous different meanings definatively. "to make a rapid succession of short sharp noises" is the most common, and it is not quantified with a source of the noise being mechanically coupled, or indirectly through air pressure waves, nor any other mode of transmission, resonant or not. Its use in "resonance" explanation therefore is not definatively excluded.

I have heard snare drums "rattle" in the same way as window panes do, and it can be sympathetic resonance or simply excitation from a drumstick. The contact of the drum skin to the snares produces the sound, the sympathetic resonance of the skin or the snare can be the source of the driving amplitude for it. Air pressure waves of resonant frequency from a nearby speaker can induce it. Non resonant vibration forces from a stage floor can also induce it...neither excludes the other, in regards to a "rattle" being heard.
Marty, the cited definition bothers you in regards to accuracy because perhaps you are ignoring a key componant of it. The fact that the "rattle" occurs as the engine speed of the truck is at a specific RPM, and then dissapears when this RPM slows or speeds up is what defines its resonant relationship. If the truck produced a vibration that caused a rattle, regardles off engine speed, then I would agree with you that there is some other mechanical vibration going on that is not sympathetic in nature.


Edited by Emmery (08/04/12 12:34 PM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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