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Joined: May 2005
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Irritable? Oh yes. I've been up for 25 hours. Defensive? Not at all. What I chose to discuss is my own business. You don't know my personal situation -- and I don't care to explain it to you or anyone else at the moment. Case closed. Up for 25 hours???? Perhaps you should turn off the computer and go to bed !!! Sleep deprivation can make anything seem worse than it is !!
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Sometimes I have been awake for more than 50 hours, although not necessarily "up"...
Music is my best friend.
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mazurkajoe,
I think why you are getting some of these responses, though I could be wrong, is that many people on this forum have had years of piano lessons from excellent teachers. Some on this forum are teachers themselves. There is usually a pedagogical approach to piano playing and the piano repertoire that is fairly standard. It goes something along this order: Easy Bach (Anna Magdalena), followed by the standard sonatinas (Clementi & Kuhlau), children's pieces by Schumann, Shostakovitch, Khachaturian, maybe some Burgmuller; then Inventions, perhaps Beethoven Op. 49 or Mozart 545. Then easier Mozart and Haydn sonatas, Schubert Impromptus, easier WTC, Chopin Waltzes and easier Nocturnes. Then more difficult Mozart, more difficult WTC and Beethoven Sonatas, usually starting with Op. 2, No. 1 or Op. 14, ending up with Op. 26 or Op.13. Then usually a couple Chopin Etudes, some more difficult Beethoven (Op. 28, Op. 27, No.2, Op. 31,No.2) and, along with these, larger scale works like the Chopin Scherzi. Most teachers I know, wouldn't start a student on a Scherzo until they've had a couple of Mozart and Beethoven Sonatas under their belts. Good post !! In a perfect world, what you outline above would indeed be the desired approach - but it doesn't always work out that way !! (I loved the comment by one of the posters here about the adult student who came to him having played only two works - Fur Elise and the 4th Ballade!!) There were major gaps in my own musical training as a teenager. I studied the two opus 49's when I was in high school and the Opus 2 No. 3 as an undergrad but never performed them. In grad school (as a piano major) I performed Opus 53, Opus 7 and Opus 110, and forty years later I learned Opus 78. Mazurka Joe's lack of exposure to Beethoven is not all that unusual - but he has an entire lifetime ahead of him to explore these wonderful works.
Last edited by carey; 08/06/12 07:46 PM.
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unless the student is close to giving up the piano. Well.. I was kinda thinking about quitting. Don't even go there !!!
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unless the student is close to giving up the piano. Well.. I was kinda thinking about quitting. Don't even go there !!! Why? Sometimes it's a good idea and the right thing to do.
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Judging from the smiley ( ) , I don't think he was serious...
Music is my best friend.
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Joined: Nov 2007
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Judging from the smiley ( ) , I don't think he was serious... Yeah, I didn't think so - but it still could be a good idea. It's funny how sometimes the unconscious will present deeper truths in contexts that hide what they really are.
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This thread:
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Irritable? Oh yes. I've been up for 25 hours. Defensive? Not at all. What I chose to discuss is my own business. You don't know my personal situation -- and I don't care to explain it to you or anyone else at the moment. Case closed. You're a joke. "I can play a Chopin scherzo but I've never played a single Beethoven sonata"...lol. If you are good enough to play a Chopin scherzo properly then you should have no need to create a thread like this in the first place. edit: some of the recommendations here are just too funny. Yeah let's recommend op.53 or op.109 for someone who's never played a Beethoven sonata before.
Last edited by UberB; 08/07/12 01:35 AM.
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Beethoven is hard, harder than Chopin: there are some easier Beethoven works than some Chopin, but would anyone here take Op 106 as easier than any Chopin?
Chopin offers relatively immediate gratification. Beethoven repays a lifetime's study. Considering I have never played Beethoven, I can't make any claims but I seriously doubt that Chopin's etudes, scherzi and ballades are all less difficult than Beethoven's sonatas. Chopin offers relatively immediate gratification. Beethoven repays a lifetime's study. Be careful. No, you cannot compare the relative difficulties of Chopin and Beethoven as you have played no Beethoven. Those technical difficulties are different with each composer. I have been studying both (and other composers) for nearly 60 years. I love Chopin and he provides me with a great deal of pleasure but he himself said he did not "aim as high" as composers like Bach and Mozart. Beethoven, for me, repays repeated study at a deeper level than Chopin. When you have studied Beethoven you may come to a different conclusion. Who knows? Meanwhile I can assert, with due care, my belief that Beethoven presents more technical difficulties, in general, than Chopin. That's partly to do with the sheer precision needed because Beethoven's writing is so open and exposed. The merest slip in timing, dynamics, hand coordination, is horribly apparent. Just get on with it and see/hear for yourself.
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You're a joke. "I can play a Chopin scherzo but I've never played a single Beethoven sonata"...lol. If you are good enough to play a Chopin scherzo properly then you should have no need to create a thread like this in the first place. Wow, you're right! It is logically impossible to be able to play Chopin scherzi without Beethoven sonatas first. How could I have not known this? Silly me.
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You're a joke. "I can play a Chopin scherzo but I've never played a single Beethoven sonata"...lol. If you are good enough to play a Chopin scherzo properly then you should have no need to create a thread like this in the first place. Wow, you're right! It is logically impossible to be able to play Chopin scherzi without Beethoven sonatas first. How could I have not known this? Silly me. I'm afraid he/she is right, joe. If you've the ability to play one of the scherzi well, then you would not need to create a thread like this.
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠$
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Just because someone doesn't play Beethoven doesn't mean they don't or can't play other things. That's hilarious. In case you don't understand the Op, I was asking for suggestions because I'm a total Beethoven newbie. A few people gave me some great advice -- i.e. a few suggestions and their difficulties, and I thank them for doing so. That's all that matters. Back to listening..
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Just because someone doesn't play Beethoven doesn't mean they don't or can't play other things. That's hilarious. In case you don't understand the Op, I was asking for suggestions because I'm a total Beethoven newbie. A few people gave me some great advice -- i.e. a few suggestions and their difficulties, and I thank them for doing so. That's all that matters. Back to listening.. What's peculiar about the situation is more aligned with the fact that these are Beethoven sonatas. If this was an obscure classical composer, it'd make sense. But we have to wonder where you gained your technique from, especially when you can't say for personal reasons. These are Beethoven sonatas; not only are they standard teaching and performing pieces, they are also popularly assigned by teachers. I can't imagine a teacher bypassing them. Being a Beethoven newbie doesn't mean never having played any. I didn't want to say you're a joke or that you're lying, but to keep refusing to give a list of your repertoire or your own opinion on the pieces, or even to say which of the ones you've listened to are your preferred thus far - yes, it is very strange indeed.
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Just because someone doesn't play Beethoven doesn't mean they don't or can't play other things. That could very well be the case, but it is definitely a strong indicator.
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Just because someone doesn't play Beethoven doesn't mean they don't or can't play other things. That's hilarious. In case you don't understand the Op, I was asking for suggestions because I'm a total Beethoven newbie. A few people gave me some great advice -- i.e. a few suggestions and their difficulties, and I thank them for doing so. That's all that matters. Back to listening.. What's peculiar about the situation is more aligned with the fact that these are Beethoven sonatas. If this was an obscure classical composer, it'd make sense. But we have to wonder where you gained your technique from, especially when you can't say for personal reasons. These are Beethoven sonatas; not only are they standard teaching and performing pieces, they are also popularly assigned by teachers. I can't imagine a teacher bypassing them. Being a Beethoven newbie doesn't mean never having played any. I didn't want to say you're a joke or that you're lying, but to keep refusing to give a list of your repertoire or your own opinion on the pieces, or even to say which of the ones you've listened to are your preferred thus far - yes, it is very strange indeed. +1
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Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
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Move along, folks. Nothing more to see here !!
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Just because someone doesn't play Beethoven doesn't mean they don't or can't play other things. That's hilarious. In case you don't understand the Op, I was asking for suggestions because I'm a total Beethoven newbie. A few people gave me some great advice -- i.e. a few suggestions and their difficulties, and I thank them for doing so. That's all that matters. Back to listening.. No one is saying you can't play other things, joe. What we're saying is that, if you can play Chopin scherzi, then you shouldn't even NEED to ask about the Beethoven sonatas... and for a couple of reasons. One, a teacher that knows what they're doing won't give you Chopin scherzi without at least an introduction to Beethoven and more than likely you would be working on Beethoven simultaneously. Furthermore, if your technique allows you to grasp the scherzi, then your technique is strong enough to tackle many of the sonatas... in other words, you should be able to read through them and choose for yourself. Stop being so defensive and consider that experience just might know a bit more about the situation than you do.
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠$
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Joined: May 2012
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6000 Post Club Member
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OP
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Just because someone doesn't play Beethoven doesn't mean they don't or can't play other things. That's hilarious. In case you don't understand the Op, I was asking for suggestions because I'm a total Beethoven newbie. A few people gave me some great advice -- i.e. a few suggestions and their difficulties, and I thank them for doing so. That's all that matters. Back to listening.. What's peculiar about the situation is more aligned with the fact that these are Beethoven sonatas. If this was an obscure classical composer, it'd make sense. But we have to wonder where you gained your technique from, especially when you can't say for personal reasons. These are Beethoven sonatas; not only are they standard teaching and performing pieces, they are also popularly assigned by teachers. I can't imagine a teacher bypassing them. Being a Beethoven newbie doesn't mean never having played any. I didn't want to say you're a joke or that you're lying, but to keep refusing to give a list of your repertoire or your own opinion on the pieces, or even to say which of the ones you've listened to are your preferred thus far - yes, it is very strange indeed. Yeah I was way too tired to talk about that last night. But things are good now. Anyway, I started playing piano 3 years ago. All ragtime. Then I moved on to Debussy and Chopin. Long story short I'm an advanced student (with a teacher..). Not everyone likes the same things. Just because Beethoven is one of the "standards" for students doesn't amount to jack. That kind of objective mentality is closed minded. I honestly could never sit and learn Beethoven for years. His music just doesn't appeal to me. (go on Beethoven-worshipers, do your worst)
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Joined: Dec 2009
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6000 Post Club Member
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Just because someone doesn't play Beethoven doesn't mean they don't or can't play other things. That's hilarious. In case you don't understand the Op, I was asking for suggestions because I'm a total Beethoven newbie. A few people gave me some great advice -- i.e. a few suggestions and their difficulties, and I thank them for doing so. That's all that matters. Back to listening.. What's peculiar about the situation is more aligned with the fact that these are Beethoven sonatas. If this was an obscure classical composer, it'd make sense. But we have to wonder where you gained your technique from, especially when you can't say for personal reasons. These are Beethoven sonatas; not only are they standard teaching and performing pieces, they are also popularly assigned by teachers. I can't imagine a teacher bypassing them. Being a Beethoven newbie doesn't mean never having played any. I didn't want to say you're a joke or that you're lying, but to keep refusing to give a list of your repertoire or your own opinion on the pieces, or even to say which of the ones you've listened to are your preferred thus far - yes, it is very strange indeed. Yeah I was way too tired to talk about that last night. But things are good now. Anyway, I started playing piano 3 years ago. All ragtime. Then I moved on to Debussy and Chopin. Long story short I'm an advanced student (with a teacher..). Not everyone likes the same things. Just because Beethoven is one of the "standards" for students doesn't amount to jack. That kind of objective mentality is closed minded. I honestly could never sit and learn Beethoven for years. His music just doesn't appeal to me. (go on Beethoven-worshipers, do your worst) I do believe Beethoven to be one of the greatest, if not THE greatest composer to have ever graced this planet, but that has nothing to do with the subject. The fact that Beethoven IS one of the "standards" DOES amount to jack. If you can't sit and learn Beethoven, then your conservatory dream will be nothing but a dream. Whether his music appeals to you or not, is not the point. There is more to be learned from Beethoven than perhaps any other composer. The one being close-minded, my friend, is you.
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠$
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
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