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Well, I don't consider your posts a diatribe.

I think this is, hopefully, a discussion about a subject that is, or should be, of interest to members of this forum.

And to comment on your revised statement, I will say this without getting into details of how I arrive at this - the difference in manufacturing cost alone between a Japanese 7 foot grand and a Steinway B may be as much as 100%. Said another way, a Steinway B probably has a total cost of manufacture of nearly twice that of a Yamaha C6. But that in itself brings up an interesting point - Yamaha now has introduced as you probably are aware, a model CF6 7 foot grand. And the MSRP of that piano leads me to believe that it likely costs Yamaha about what it costs Steinway to make a B. I could be wrong, but I doubt it - would be the first time since 1973 or so. (just a little joke there)

So - it just costs a lot to make good stuff. The last 5% in quality may cost an additonal 40% to achieve. Just does.

Now I gotta go practice some more Bach. Wish you were here to give me a few pointers.

I'm no piano manufacturing expert but I believe that the cost of materials, and the labor costs, and the machine costs, and the warehousing costs, and the distribution costs are vastly different for any item that is hand made in the US or Europe and a product that's mass produced in Asia - particularly China and Indonesia. I would be amazed if the were within 200-300% of each other - again I'm not a manufacturing expert, but things like sand casting instead of vacuum casting of plates, superior woods, felts, leathers, strings, hammers, etc are far, far more expensive than cheapies. Packing 10 to 20 pianos in a crate and shipping them is far more efficient than shipping one or a few at a time. Warehousing? Don't really know about that. Machine costs? All I know is I can go to Harbor Freight and every cheap tool they have there is made in China. And then there's labor - you aren't trying to imply that Chinese wages are in anywhere near the same ballpark as European or American labor are you? Labor costs are on the rise in China but have not even approached first world rates as of yet.

Lester, Wurlitzer, Chickering. What's A Brand Worth?? So you say that just maybe, just mayby a brand might be able to be Purchased in the mid five figure range?? Let's just suppose that we could purchase the Chickering Name and that our goal and disire was to have a premium say 5'7" grand produced based on the original specifications that made Chickering the Desirable premium piano that it Once was, but at a more accessable price. Where would you turn to. Asia, Eastern Europe, Some parts of the Americas?? What should this piano sell for, considering all of the excellent observations and points made in the previous post.

I wouldn't think Wurlitzer or Chickering would be realistic as they have very recent Baldwin associations and most likely Baldwin still owns the names. I'd bet Baldwin wouldn't let them go for any type of realistic price. Lester on the other hand....

Weeeeelll stanger things have happened. Just for fun WHAT IF???You never know if a manufactuer just might get motivated to get in gear and produce such a piano even if they don't let the name go. Could induce new vitality and interest in their portfolio of exsiting products.

Derulux.

You assumptions and positions show a lack of knowledge about the piano industry and piano manufacturing. You manifest that lack of knowledge in so may ways that it leads me to take your advice and walk away.

This discussion is sophomoric, so I'm outta here. I'd advise other to take Derulux's advice as well.

Just dreaming and trying to have some fun. Sorry I seam so sophomoric to you

K-52SM,

Sam wasn't addressing you! It was to one the responders who has created some ill will in the hijacked part of your thread.

The Lester has me ROTFL. You would need to contact Cinnamonbear and see if he wants to go into partnership with you to produce the piano. I believe he holds the copyright. The Lester name would be available for about $5.00. I would love to see a brand new Lester Concert Grand priced for about $150.000.

Pianolance,

I completely understand what you are saying. Considering Baldwin's current problems, they might consider unloading the Wurlitzer, Chickering, and even Hamilton names. I would guess a high price tag would go with them. My guess, and an OOM guess, would be at least 1/2 Mil.

Firstly, I apologize for the length of this post. I tried to address everyone's thoughts and concerns the best I could. If you look in the quotes for your name, you can skip to my direct response to each of you.


Entirely. Hence, my retraction.


Interestingly, this is getting very close to a discussion of what my "day job" actually is. But, since no one asked, or at least everyone seems to have assumed I know nothing about the topic, I have stayed silent. But, you are correct. Thank you for repeating something I also said.


Here, you both have me and don't have me. You have me because I am not a sourcing expert for lumber. I have considerable expertise with international supply chain and distribution of it, but not the actual sourcing. However, I am not completely sure that this would cause a six-figure difference. I have very few of these industry-specific facts available to me. What I do know is business and marketing/branding. So I have been speaking more on a macro scale and to those points than trying to get down into the small details. If you do have a list of prices that more than one manufacturer pays for each of its piano's parts, I would actually be interested in doing this type of analysis.


This is my exact point, and I thank you for backing me up on it.




Thank God, my friend.. it seems you are the only one.


This might be true, and I am sure if you are an industry expert, than you must know it to be true. I've never debated this point. What I've said--and I think I said it in my amended statement better than in my original, since there was some confusion--is that there is really no reason for such a large gap. A gap, yes, largely because of tolerance specifications, which I previously mentioned (but some people have yet to grasp that I did, indeed, mention it). But not as large a gap as retail prices seem to indicate.


HAHA Any chance you remember what you were so wrong about?


On Bach? Are you nuts?! haha Me giving you pointers on Bach would be about as worthwhile as listening to heavy metal in order to understand Mozart.


As far as I can tell, you are completely correct in your assumptions. And no, I am absolutely not trying to imply that Chinese wages equal American wages. In fact, I am implying the exact opposite.


Steve, I've always considered your opinion and thoughts in high regard. I am sure that we are much closer to the same page than not, but our methods of arriving at those conclusions are somewhat different, and if we had a chance to sit down and discuss it, we would probably both see each others' points. I agree that things get muddled when so many voices and divergent threads emerge in one discussion. Sadly, you learned my own lesson before I could.

The only names that still have "value" might be Chickering, and Baldwin Hamilton..
Wurlizer makes me think of "organ" not pianos and as for Lester you'd have to reach way back,and even then people would say ..who?

Derulux,

Maybe the reaction to you is not about what you have to say, but how you say it. Over, and over, and over, and inferring that other's opinions are not of value or merit.

Until you changed you phrasing, you argued all that you had stated based on the original phrasing. It negates all of your previous comments of which you were adamant.

We do not agree on the value of a Steinway. I accept it and you think it is way overpriced for the reasons you have previously stressed.

I understand why Sam made his frustrated exit.

I have gone back to the original question from the OP, until your rebuttal butted in, that is.

Hi Bob,

You might be showing your tender age. Just a guess. Late 50's there were TV piano ads which used the phrase "Gee Dad. It's a Wurlitzer!" It's right up there with "Plop-plop, Fizz-fizz" and the glorious "Where's the beef?"

The pianos never carried the "Mighty" tag, however. But at the ballpark or arena, it sure was where Wurlitzer Ruled!

I think that you are correct. I was very surprised, shocked even, at the wild ideas that people insinuated my statements suggested, when no such suggestion ever existed. I am glad you have persisted with me to help clear the air, though. I know going "against the grain" gets you splinters, so I was prepared for some of it, but I do not now, nor have I ever intended either animosity or arrogance.

To your point about Steinways: It's not so much that I think they are overpriced cart blanche. I think this is still a misconstruing of my thoughts, for which only I can take blame, since only I can explain what it is I mean to say. And if that explanation is lacking, then shame on me.

I do feel that Steinway has employed very specific and highly successful marketing techniques for a luxury product that allow them to charge the price that they charge. So, in effect, the "branding" concept I discussed at the earliest (though I think we both admit I might have had a better way to inject the thought to the discussion). It's not so much that they have to do things they way they do, but that they choose to.

I think that some people inferred that I mean to say a Steinway is equivalent to a Wurlitzer. Absolutely not. I mean only to compare Steinway to Steinway. And I didn't pick that up at the start of the conversation, which was my fault.

Marty..looking at 60 ...and I'm bemoaning watching progams I saw for "free" now I have to pay for!.. Have Gun Will Travel, Cheyenne, The Rifleman..Gunsmoke, Bonanza etc

Derulux,

You seem to be confusing your concept of this thread with what was intended by the OP.

The references to Wurlitzer were about it's value as a trademark stencil. To revive a name and market it anew. Other than in your specific intrepretation of this thread, a Wurlitzer was not being compared to Steinway. The concept of marketing a new incarnation of the piano using the reputation of the old was what was being asked. And quite specifically, how much is the trademark worth? The trademark was what was of interest, not the cost of Samick compared to Steingraeber.

Baldwin tried it with "Wurlitzer" and "Chickering" and the results were not profitable. They are no longer in production.

Love It! - Love 'Em! - Me Too! What happened to Zorro and Rocketman, anywhy? Color TV? Never happen. In strutted the peacock, but ya still needed an antenna.

Yea, the Ponderosa of memories, with the cable bill.

And just think..we only had 3 stations the 4th public tv, had basically nothing back then,
one day they came up with this new fangled thing called UHF a seperate box with 3 more stations (yipee)..so in addition to rabbit ears you had a little round antenna!
ha LOL!

I'm not so sure. The reason Baldwin failed is because of the perceived value of the brand name "Wurlitzer" and "Chickering". They weren't worth the price tag on the piano, so nobody bought them. The brand name has to be rehabilitated first, because ultimately (with a luxury item like a piano in particular) the value of the product is the value of the brand name.

That was the original direction I commented in. Everything else is in response to other posters.

Aah Bob, I think I'm hearing the singing of Archie and Edith.

We have hijacked a thread.