Story & Clarke, Wm Knabe & Co. Chickering & Sons, Wurlitzer, Sohmer, Weber, Ivers & Pond, Hallett & Davis, Kranich & Back, Winter, and others to numerous to mention. What's a name worth?? I often wonder when I see these familiar names of the great American piano era past, now being produced in lands offshore and far away, what's a name worth? Were these iconic brand names sold for a song? Or were they just given away and picked up for nothing? What's a name worth? What would you pay for a brand name like Wurlitzer, Chickering, Winter, or Gulbransen? Would you pay anything for a now defufnked name?? That is if You are going into the piano buisness

Tommy

The more you pay for "name" [only] - the less is sometimes left for piano itself....
Not saying a good name ain't worth nothing, but a bit of 'reality check' won't be a bad idea.
My wife does have a lovely name - but I didn't marry her because of it...

Norbert

My name is worth about $278 including a roll of "forever" stamps! HAH! Seriously, certain pianos seem to hold their value if you buy them used or keep them for many years. Steinway is one name that comes to mind. If you buy one right after it is a few years old, It may never depreciate during your ownership. It is also a valuable name to drop at cocktail parties. Years ago, I found that the phrase, "I own a Steinway" commanded respect. But I was young and had alot to learn. Now I appreciate the sound and action and keep my purchases to myself!

One more note, The names of Marantz, Fisher, Webcor etc. were once well known American companies. These names and more, were sold to out of the country manufacturers, and the resulting products bear NO resemblance to the original products. When someone say "I own a Marantz stereo", It could be very valuable vintage audio equipment, OR it could be cheaply made transistor crap. Such seems the same with pianos. One sad item sold overseas was the Kurzweil systhesizers. Back in the '80's, Kurzweil 250 boards were cutting edge, but profit took over and this US company sold out. One example, I do a radio talk show in a American auto manufacturing town, and often field calls about buying American. I always ask what kind of telephone the caller is using. Well, case closed!

To Clarify Things. If I Wanted To Bring Back One These Old Names To Market, Say Ivers & Pond, Chickering, or some of the others mentioned, what do you think would be required to pickup one of these brands interms of purchaee of the name or are some of these names available for little or nothing?

As I see it, use of a "well-known" name on a foreign built instrument that bears little resemblance to the original American built product is simply a ploy to get unsophisticated and unsuspecting consumers to purchase a piano.

Personally, I have always liked the Weber models built by Young Chang. I even owned a Weber baby grand for a few years. BUT the Weber marketing strategy (see link below) is extremely misleading. It implies that the current Young Chang built models are similar to the instruments of the past - when, in reality, the only thing they have in common is the Weber name. When purchasing a piano these days, one needs to look past the name on the fallboard and understand where and how the instrument was designed and built.

http://weberpiano.com/weber-history

Hi K-52,

It is an interesting question. Copyright law would come into play. If the name is no longer, or has never been copyrighted, use would be free and you would be able to the copyright it for your own use and protection. The cost of a specific copyright would be dependent on the fee from the owner of the copyright. Maybe that is one of the reasons that pianos are named after composers.

I have no idea if there is an average in the piano industry. I am sure that the "great" and familiar names command big bucks. Privacy laws with contract negotiations keep this very sealed, and covered by the privacy act. It would only be known to those engaged in the negotiations.

Another interesting question is whether there would be inclusion of royalties.

Rich, was there a copyright on the Cunningham name, and if so, was it included with the purchase of the business? Was the name of the business seperate from that of the piano?

Sorry if I have asked a no-no, I don't mean to be rude or nosey, only currious. I'm not asking about the cost, only the proceedure of how it all works.

Branding is worth everything. After material costs, a 9' Steinway costs about the same as a 9' Young & Chang. The difference is the name. Same goes for Nike, Adidas, Rolex, Rolls Royce, Ferrari, etc.

If I were to buy a name, I would not want to purchase one that is worthless. I would try to get the best brand I could afford, and then spend as much time and effort as I could rehabilitating the name of the brand. In the case of pianos, that could take an entire generation, because people get entrenched in their particular points of view no matter what the evidence indicates, and "taste" predominates the other senses, including "common". So, you would have to be acutely aware of that in light of any purchasing considerations.

I disagree - it is not the name that makes a Steinway different from a Young Chang, it is how the materials are put together.

Jonathan

And you don't think that, at all, you are at least in part paying for the name??

Hmmm...a C&A program with 2 to 5 concert level instruments not sold to a dealer, but there in a city in case an S&S artist wants to play one.

What cost in inventory alone for every major market place being serviced in the world? 1 mill.? 10 mill.? 50 mill.?

This does not count the many permanent concert venues that have pianos placed by S&S. Now how much cost?

Add the cost of keeping artists on your roster after they have achieved a career. Once they no longer need to be a "branded" artist, many explore the world's other great voices. Now how much cost?

Please do not misunderstand me. Steinway has built some wonderful pianos and they are certainly built differently from Young Chang, but they are not the only voice out there and IMHO are not nearly the most interesting either.

My Sister-In-Law's Mother-In-Law (stay with me here...) has a brand new Kohler & Campbell that hew salesperson stated was built in the U.S.A.... She was so happy she was supporting an American workforce... that is, up until the point I broke the news to her.

What? Don't look at me like that... I HAD to say something...

The salesperson was either ignorant or dishonest. On the other hand, your S-I-L's-M-I-L is typical of the consumer who shells out big bucks without doing their research. Not to worry, however, because the K & C she bought will still probably serve her well - no matter who built it.

What if the Chickering or Wulitzer brand were available?? What's a name worth ?? What would you pay for such an iconic American Name if it were Possible to bring them back to the market place??

In part yes, but you said branding is everything.

Jonathan

It is VERY unlikely that the salesperson did not know where that piano was made. He/She certainly knew it was not in the U.S.

If the origin of the piano is important to your relative, and if there was a misrepresentation about the piano, perhaps she should speak with the dealer about taking the piano back. In my view, salespersons should not be able to induce people to buy their products by misrepresenting them; the only recourse is to return the item for a full refund. That is, of course, if the origin of the piano is important to the buyer.

You know he probably said something like, "When you buy Kohler and Campbell you are buying a great American name with a long history of quality, American made instruments." That would be deceptive and greasy, yet still technically correct. He probably didn't come right out and say, "This here particular piano was made in the USA", unless she bought a used model.

Winter, Wurlitzer, Conn, Currier, What's a name worth?? What can you expect to pay to aquire one of the old now defunct unused brand names. $50, $5oo, $5000, $5oooo, Or $5oooooo If you Wanted to start a new piano company what would you pay for a known brand name??

Many (if not most) of the old names have owners already. If one wanted a particular name, research would be required to find out to whom the name belongs and for what the owner would be willing to sell it (if, of course, the owner is willing to part with it).

Even if a name is not currently owned, using a now-defunct piano brand name for purposes of misleading the public could be very problematic. There are, of course, good reasons to use an old manufacturer's name, but misleading the public is not one of them.

Are you Saying that Samick, Young Chang, Pearl River, Gibson, Baldwin,Wurliter, Yamaha, and the designed by Steinway Series are misleading the public?? If A Company gives a accurate historical timeline of the brand, and makes it clear the transparent truthful facts about the current product line Are you saying That this is misleading? Young Chang Built Grands for Baldwin And Wurlitzer. Was this Misleading?? Larry Fine reports that Samick Has developed or is developing from old engineering records the Wm Knabe line. It is said that they are even shiping back old Knabe Models for Further Product Development. Is This Misleading the Public?? Does a Company not have the right to develope new product specifications or totaly new product designs. Can a company not change it's manufacturing location??

Baldwin (now part of the Gibson family of brands) DID change it's manufacturing location and is one of the few American companies to do it that way. Companies like Samick, Young Chang and Pearl River have never hid the fact that they are Asian companies. Other names like Kohler and Campbell, Knabe and Wurlitzer are where the confusion comes in. These are names that are purchased and used on instruments that have little or nothing to do with the original companies. Persoanlly, as a classic Knabe owner, I'm glad the Samick is trying to reproduce the Knabe line by going back to the Knabe roots and recreating the piano from there, but it's hardly a matter of Knabe moving its manufacturing location. When Aolean took over Knabe, Mason and Hamlin and Chickering those companies ceased to exist except on a fallboard. Is the new Mason the same as the old Mason and was the old Mason the same as the really old Mason? The irony is that the new Mason is probably closer to the really old Mason than just the old Mason.

All I am saying is that it is misleading to say that a piano was made in the USA if it was not made in the USA. This is true with any product in any genre. If a salesperson induces a person to buy a piano by saying that the piano was made in the USA, and the piano was made elsewhere, it is misleading.

That is ALL I am saying. Of course the truthful sharing of truthful information is not misleading.

A few years ago I consulted a piano manufactuer that was in the process of buying rights to a reasonably well known brand name.

I can't reveal the details but the name sold in the mid 5 figure range.

Thank-You Steve that's what I Was currious about. Marty thanks for your thoughts as well

So a reasonably well known mid level company name would go for around $50,000 give or take as of a few years ago in Steve Cohen's personal experience. Sounds like a deal. Of course when you buy a name you buy the good and bad part of the name. Anybody want to snatch up Lester while the gettin' is good?

It is. See Rich's post for a great example of some of the things you are paying for when you buy a Steinway. He brings up quite a few areas of "branding" that I did not mention.

My basic point is, within a certain small margin, the cost of materials, and the labor costs, and the machine costs, and the warehousing costs, and the distribution costs, etc. are all approximately the same. So the greatest variability in the price of a piano is the actual brand itself.

Now, I also want to address another good point you bring up, which probably amounts for the second greatest variability in cost: technological capability, specifically during the actual process of manufacturing the piano.

Here, you are absolutely 100% correct. The tighter the specifications, the harder it is to manufacture the piano to those specifications. So, companies with higher tolerances will produce cheaper pianos, and companies with much lower tolerances will produce far more expensive pianos. The tighter the specs, the higher the cost. However, companies also get very good at learning how to do this cheaply over time, because it saves on operating cost. So after a hundred years, most piano companies with big, old, prestigious names should be able to do this in a very cost-effective manner.


Now, I could not say for certain which cost outweighs the other because I'm obviously not privy to all of their itemized internal costs, but after reading through Steinway's annual report a couple of weeks ago, I have to believe that it is branding that costs more than anything else in the retail price of their pianos. I would probably also put Bosendorfer in this category. I must say, the finest piano I ever played was a Bosendorfer, but again, I don't see a $130,000 difference between a Bosendorfer and a Steinway. Or a $200,000 difference between a Bosendorfer and a Boston.

Is there a difference? Absolutely, I agree with you. A Bosendorfer and a Boston are not the same piano. But the biggest difference I can find is the name on the piano.




Rich- Saw your post. Excellent observations. I only chose Steinway in my example because it's the company whose structure I am the most familiar with. I read their entire annual report a couple weeks ago for the "Anybody can afford a piano if they really want to" thread, and I just haven't gotten around to doing so for any other major company in the industry.

These costs are NOT the same. In some factories the instruments are hand-made by highly skilled labor, while in other the "labor" is done by CNC. Labor rates at Steinway as well as in Germany are exponetially higher than in China or Indonesia.



If a factory is using CNC, often tight specs are far less expensive than the same task performed by skilled labor.
Manufacturing any of the top tier pianos is far more expensive than manufacturing a more mass-produced product. Labor costs per piano are FAR greater in a hand-made piano.

Steve - wait!

Are you saying that it actually costs Fazioli significantly more to produce their F212 grand than it does Sejung to manufacture a Falcone 208?

Is that what you are saying???

Jeez. Knock me over with a feather.