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#1937017 - 08/03/12 05:36 PM Re: Gap between nameboard felt and key tops--too much? [Re: Chris Storch]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1804
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Do you want my opinion of the crown to Steinway keys?


Yes, please.

Any advance on Phil and Emmery's views? The Greeks adjusted the shape of their temple columns compensate for optical illusion so I'm with Phil, but my first thought was hands tend to go down as they move outwards.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#1937024 - 08/03/12 05:45 PM Re: Gap between nameboard felt and key tops--too much? [Re: Phil D]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6387
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Phil D
My workshop tech teacher told me they crown the keyboards so that they appear flatter. An optical illusion makes a perfectly flat keyboard appear higher at the edges, so they crown them in the middle. I don't know how accurate that is, but he was trained at the Steinway factory in Hamburg.


That aspect question, plus preventing wear, not only Steiwnay does this I was instructed to do so on verticals long time ago.

Then, not as much as on Steinways, and I believe that it may be back if the level get flatter, mostly because the capstan position will differ, it may be a little but it change the touch (and on tall pianos it will vary the capstan/whippen contact unless straightened later)

I have rulers that are flat others that are supple, and some that have a 2 mm crown in the center, for the Steinways mostly as I use less on other pianos)

more angle gives more force to the pianist, possibly it helps to keep the touch more even from basses to mediums ?

There are differnt views on this, some factories have their keyboard perfectly flat, somewant the key to be level at mid blow, other a full key dip, other a little before.
Lining vs mid blow line differs also...
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1937107 - 08/03/12 10:19 PM Re: Gap between nameboard felt and key tops--too much? [Re: Bokeh]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Philadelphia area
A closer look at the pics has me thinking the up-stop rail support screw that is located in the middle of keyboard needs to be lowered.

The support screw may have been turned up to compensate for the low profile at the treble and bass ends.

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#1937203 - 08/04/12 07:53 AM Re: Gap between nameboard felt and key tops--too much? [Re: Olek]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6387
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Kamin
I dont recall for that model but sometime there is a screw used to support the middle of the part.

Also taking it out may allow the part to bend a little, or tightening some screws of the panel.

I would also look at the way the panel is locked at its top.


Not on all models, and yes, looking at the pics, the middle of the keys have lowered a hair... the last 2 notes in the high treble seem to be at the correct height for instance.

Those front are very tall so they cannot be used as a "proof" of correct key height. however the font pin may be inserted in +- 1/3 of its lenght the key, when at rest.

There is also a possibility that the key bed is curved a little. it is supported on the iron frame and some shims are used sometime. the screws may need tightening, the shims may be lost (if any)

That space in the middle sound more as a space reserved for the crowning of the key level, and it is now more apparent.

I may have all regulation dimensions here if your tech is in need of them. the S&S ruler is 5/64' (that for grands , verticals seem to use 1/32 as I checked doc.) that is not really unnoticed when you look at it closely. You may want to measure if thee keys in the middle of thee piano have the same dip than at the extremes (extreme keys are often in the same original dimensions than when the piano was new)
Also, is the front part of the key frame (under the keys) flat, or curved ?


Edited by Kamin (08/04/12 02:24 PM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1937225 - 08/04/12 09:28 AM Re: Gap between nameboard felt and key tops--too much? [Re: Dave B]
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/07/07
Posts: 6828
Loc: Grand Rapids Michigan
Originally Posted By: Dave B
A closer look at the pics has me thinking the up-stop rail support screw that is located in the middle of keyboard needs to be lowered.

The support screw may have been turned up to compensate for the low profile at the treble and bass ends.


That's exactly what I thought too Dave. I guess this is another one of those topics that deserves 12 more pages thoughts though....

Call in a technician. Problem will be solved in no time flat.
_________________________
Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.

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#1937247 - 08/04/12 10:21 AM Re: Gap between nameboard felt and key tops--too much? [Re: Withindale]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2335
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: Chris Storch
Do you want my opinion of the crown to Steinway keys?


Yes, please.

Any advance on Phil and Emmery's views? The Greeks adjusted the shape of their temple columns compensate for optical illusion so I'm with Phil, but my first thought was hands tend to go down as they move outwards.


Following quote taken from "Regulating Grand Piano Touch and Tone", by Danny L. Boone, RPT (section 29/pg 84)

"...Some manufacturers specify that the keyboard should have 1/32 inch crown- that is, the center of the keyboard should be 1/32 inch higher than the ends (0.8 mm). The reason for crown in the keyboardis simply to anticipate future settling in the area which receives the most playing, thus insuring against a keyboard sagging in the middle. A piano that might not be regulatied again for many years should probably have the center higher, but this is not an absolute necessity."

I can vouch for the accuracy of this "sagging" occuring, have seen it occur to some degree or another on most pianos.


Edited by Emmery (08/04/12 10:21 AM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1937251 - 08/04/12 10:26 AM Re: Gap between nameboard felt and key tops--too much? [Re: Emmery]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1804
Loc: Suffolk, England
Thanks, Emmery. Makes sense, the optical illusion correction must be a bonus.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#1937259 - 08/04/12 10:50 AM Re: Gap between nameboard felt and key tops--too much? [Re: Olek]
Bokeh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/27/12
Posts: 23
Originally Posted By: Kamin
[quote=Kamin]
I may have all regulation dimensions here if your tech is in need of them.


Kamin, Chris (and all others):

Thanks again for helping a novice. Believe it or not, even though I am going to use a tech, this helps me greatly when I interview him to see if he is thinking about some of these issues. Your collective experience has pointed out a ton of issues that I would not even know existed. As the 1098 is not the most common piano, I can't be sure that the tech will be experienced with it. I am in North Carolina after all (not Boston or Philadelphia!)
At least I will make sure the tech has the right specs.

Sorry that this thread ran so long--hopefully we won't hit 12 pages. It seemed like a simple issue. Interestingly I have yet to hear from anyone who owns a 1098 (maybe they won't admit to it sick )...

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#1937265 - 08/04/12 11:00 AM Re: Gap between nameboard felt and key tops--too much? [Re: Bokeh]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6387
Loc: France
I know one near Paris. The case is, very well finished, the tone is not bad, date around 50

A friend restored one that was baught by the US army during the Overlord operation.

Now in the peace memorial in Caen.

Good result , the rebuild included a new (Renner) action as the original was too much destroyed.
I cant recall the existence of that middle support screw, it also may have been lost at some point. anyway that screw cannot lower your panel, only raise it if untwisted by mistake.

Good luck, but there is nothing special for the regulation, out of taking in account the original one.

That is fun to try to write something on a so secondary point wink

I stand corrected as for the curve it is 1/32 on the verticals and more 1/64 for the grands, in the documentation.

I have regulation data for all the other models, that one is not listed, but any competent tech can derive the good regulating dimensions, anyway it change a little even in the same model (hammer travel distance can vary a little depending of the level of pressure at the bottom of the key, as key dip is generally kept standard, the hammer travel may be tweaked a little so to have the wanted aftertouch, as for a grand in fact -with limitations in regard of the at rest position, hammer cannot be too far toward the keyboard without adding weight at the beginning of the stroke


Edited by Kamin (08/05/12 06:56 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1938172 - 08/06/12 01:14 PM Re: Gap between nameboard felt and key tops--too much? [Re: Olek]
Bokeh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/27/12
Posts: 23
Originally Posted By: Kamin
Originally Posted By: Kamin
I dont recall for that model but sometime there is a screw used to support the middle of the part.

Also taking it out may allow the part to bend a little, or tightening some screws of the panel.

I would also look at the way the panel is locked at its top.


Not on all models, and yes, looking at the pics, the middle of the keys have lowered a hair... the last 2 notes in the high treble seem to be at the correct height for instance.

Those front are very tall so they cannot be used as a "proof" of correct key height. however the font pin may be inserted in +- 1/3 of its lenght the key, when at rest.

There is also a possibility that the key bed is curved a little. it is supported on the iron frame and some shims are used sometime. the screws may need tightening, the shims may be lost (if any)

That space in the middle sound more as a space reserved for the crowning of the key level, and it is now more apparent.

I may have all regulation dimensions here if your tech is in need of them. the S&S ruler is 5/64' (that for grands , verticals seem to use 1/32 as I checked doc.) that is not really unnoticed when you look at it closely. You may want to measure if thee keys in the middle of thee piano have the same dip than at the extremes (extreme keys are often in the same original dimensions than when the piano was new)
Also, is the front part of the key frame (under the keys) flat, or curved ?

Kamin,
I did find some shims under the key bed on the ends (1 and 88 keys). This is one possibility. I have not measured for flatness, but will bring up to attention of tech.

If it is not too much trouble, I would greatly appreciate the regulation dimensions, per your offer. If you have them or have a link. I have not been able to find them. This is a 1956 S&S 1098, by the way.
Thank you so much!

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#1938436 - 08/06/12 07:46 PM Re: Gap between nameboard felt and key tops--too much? [Re: Bokeh]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6387
Loc: France
I have to ask, as I have not the data at hand for that precise model.

I am unsure of what you call the "keybed" is it the wooden frame with pins under the keys, or the "table" where that wooden frame is fixed (that one is fixed in the sides of the piano plus on support protubering from the iron frame often.

The keyframe have generally shims under it to regulate at large the height of the keys, then the job is finished using individual papers punchings under each key.
The keybed can be shimmed, but most often it is in the middle between keybed and those iron supports coming from the plate (not all plates are providing this support)

I'll try to get those regulation basics dimensions , mostly key height and dip are useful.


Edited by Kamin (08/06/12 07:47 PM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1938443 - 08/06/12 07:59 PM Re: Gap between nameboard felt and key tops--too much? [Re: Bokeh]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1734
Loc: Philadelphia area
Kamin, where are you getting your documentation? The tech manual I'm referencing is not more than ten years old. It specs 1/32" for both vertical and grand actions. Steinway does make changes and Hamburg Steinway's may have different specs?

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#1938455 - 08/06/12 08:15 PM Re: Gap between nameboard felt and key tops--too much? [Re: Bokeh]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6387
Loc: France
I have a booklet from the NY factory on the verticals made in NY, stated 1/32 for all verticals, so I dont know for the grands.

The German Steinway have a 2 mm crowned keyboard, (almost 3/64) it may be slightly different from the NY one, I dont know (the keybed and keyframe are arched differently I have read). The "Steinway keyboard ruler" is arched 2 mm (they are not totally used sometime, in fact it depends of the level of curve we find in the piano, once the keyframe is tightened and glide bolts regulated look at the front lip)

If I need more information I ask my contacts but in Germany.

I dont even know if that little model have been ever produced in Europe so may be that will give no results


Edited by Kamin (08/06/12 08:17 PM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1938461 - 08/06/12 08:23 PM Re: Gap between nameboard felt and key tops--too much? [Re: Olek]
Bokeh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/27/12
Posts: 23
Originally Posted By: Kamin
I have to ask, as I have not the data at hand for that precise model.

I am unsure of what you call the "keybed" is it the wooden frame with pins under the keys,


yes, it is this wooden frame with pins under the keys. There were some paper shims under it that seemed old, but no gaps or major distortions. I have not taken out all the keys yet, so I have not checked if this keybed (as I am calling it) is straight.

thanks

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#1938593 - 08/07/12 02:23 AM Re: Gap between nameboard felt and key tops--too much? [Re: Bokeh]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6387
Loc: France
Keybed is the "table" under keyframe . Clean everything there, pins with some light solvent, if oxyded polish them with a strip of clot and chome polish fluid.
Blowing dust is the most efficient way if you can do that.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1939302 - 08/08/12 11:43 AM Re: Gap between nameboard felt and key tops--too much? [Re: Bokeh]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6387
Loc: France
Hello,BOkeh I received the data , key height is 60.3 mm (measured under the ivory generally) white key dip 10.16 (must be measures in inches translated in mm)

Please ask your technician to join me for the other regulation measurements.

All the best
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1939316 - 08/08/12 12:10 PM Re: Gap between nameboard felt and key tops--too much? [Re: Olek]
Bokeh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/27/12
Posts: 23
Thanks Kamin!
(did you by any chance get the slope of the keys?)

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#1939342 - 08/08/12 01:05 PM Re: Gap between nameboard felt and key tops--too much? [Re: Bokeh]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6387
Loc: France
Nope, did not ask, and anyway if the keys are at the good height chances are that the slope is good (unless you mean the arch)
The keybed back fixture very rarely can be changed by mistake it would mean the case have been dismounted and not remounted properly (when all wires are changed for instance)Even then the restorer must be really non attentive.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#1939366 - 08/08/12 01:49 PM Re: Gap between nameboard felt and key tops--too much? [Re: Olek]
Bokeh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/27/12
Posts: 23

OK thanks. Though I have heard of people using different thickness on the back rail cloth. That would increase/decrease the slope of the keys, no?
don't some people also shim under the back rail cloth to adjust slope?

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#1939379 - 08/08/12 02:07 PM Re: Gap between nameboard felt and key tops--too much? [Re: Bokeh]
Johnkie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 666
Loc: England
Generally speaking when felting a key frame the back-touch baize is selected in conjunction with the centre rail to give the required final key height at the front of the key, and then the thickness of front rail baizes is determined to give the correct overall depth of touch. Paper and card punchings are then used to make the final precise adjustments. The actual rake of the keyboard is affected very little from the possible combinations of back-touch, and centre rail felt size. wink

Best wishes - John
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#1939391 - 08/08/12 02:28 PM Re: Gap between nameboard felt and key tops--too much? [Re: Bokeh]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6387
Loc: France
Yes John , but if possible it may be interesting for touch to avoid a key sloping too much at full dip, or the opposite.

There are a few limits, in regard of the best alignment of the captan/heel contact point(and about the amount of front key pin inserted in the mortise); on a normally tall vertical it can be more sensitive because the height of capstan and whippen heel allow for modification of acceleration.

A vertical can have the touch made heavier by moving the capstan heel contact, or slightly bowing the action frame.

The wire holding the wooden capstans may be lining and the contact point precisely defined (that is for tall pianos)

On modern designs the builder knows when the key is supposed to attain the horizontal, and where is the mid blow line.
On older designs I suppose it was all located at mid blow (and the balance pins are vertical)

On a piano that have some wear I often shim under the back rail (and balance rail) I find it better than turning the capstan. does not make much sence because the wear is more on the action side, but still...

I also shim all along and not only under the screws, so the keyframe is less noisy and more firm.

On a 1955 piano nothing have been changed probably.









Edited by Kamin (08/08/12 02:40 PM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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