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#1939355 - 08/08/12 01:34 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1540
Loc: Danville, California
FWIW

I have a friend who was in an executive position with Baldwin in those days who would agree totally with what Steve has said.

The company's demise was swift and sudden.

Takes a long time - decades - to build up an organization.

It can evaporate in 12 months.

I have seen it happen in other industries.

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#1939360 - 08/08/12 01:42 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: Mike Carr]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Um, Mike,

The difference is that Mr. Cohen is acknowledged as one of the most respected individuals in the industry, regarding those very facts.

There is the old adage to consider the source. Usually it implies a negative connotation. In this instance, it is unquestionably the opposite.

Before you speak, you might want to provide for yourself, a sound basis for your comments.

I would not be one to question Mr. Cohen's credibility.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1939400 - 08/08/12 03:00 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: K-52SM]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14186
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
It will be perhaps interesting to compare notes on that subject once again in the next few years.

We may be in for a lot more surprises than people reckon at that time.

Outside certain premium makers, the Chinese domestic market will drive the largest percentage of world consumption. It will be interesting to see who will still be making it at that time and who "not".

One thing for sure, bluffing your way around and pretending things won't be going nowhere.

My own guess is that the above discussion for the most part, will be mute by then.

Norbert


Edited by Norbert (08/08/12 03:01 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1939576 - 08/08/12 08:45 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Mike Carr Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/20/09
Posts: 714
Loc: BANNED
Steve,

While I generally don't concern myself with the intellectual honesty of self-styled internet experts, Who exactly were these so-called Baldwin executives going to point the finger at? Themselves? Come on, Steve. Industry gossip is not facts. No matter how you dress it up or how many times you repeat it, it's still gossip.

It might have helped if you'd mentioned the savant who was at the helm when Baldwin went famously bankrupt, one of the biggest bankruptcies at the time in American history. And the savings and loan debacle?

Mike
_________________________
smoke 'em if you got 'em

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#1939583 - 08/08/12 09:19 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: K-52SM]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Unbelievable
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1939586 - 08/08/12 09:40 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: K-52SM]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1540
Loc: Danville, California
But consistent

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#1939591 - 08/08/12 09:59 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: K-52SM]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6422
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#1939594 - 08/08/12 10:03 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: K-52SM]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1540
Loc: Danville, California
Since we are posting articles now, try this...


http://www.meiea.org/Journal/html_ver/Vol03_No01/Vol_3_No_1_A2.html

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#1939606 - 08/08/12 10:46 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: Furtwangler]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6422
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Furtwangler
Since we are posting articles now, try this...


http://www.meiea.org/Journal/html_ver/Vol03_No01/Vol_3_No_1_A2.html




ha I was in the process of posting that one as well when my computer crashed.....
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#1939612 - 08/08/12 11:01 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: Rickster]
Elkayem Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/12
Posts: 160
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
Originally Posted By: Rickster
The Chickering grands made by Baldwin in the early 80's - early 90's were Baldwins with the Chickering name on the fall board... very nice pianos. They had the accujust hitch pins too (specific Baldwin DNA)

In the 2003 version of The Piano Book, Fine writes that Baldwin's Chickering line of grands was adapted from the Classic line, which "received one of the worst reviews ever to grace the pages of The Piano Book." He also states that in the most recent survey (as of 2003), every one of the Chickering grands "received poor marks for tone quality, with technicians calling the tone 'hollow', 'woody', 'brassy', and 'not very pleasant.' " Is this the source of Baldwin's suit?

I believe Larry Fine was referring to models from the late 90's.
_________________________
Schimmel 130T

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#1939642 - 08/09/12 12:06 AM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: K-52SM]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8582
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Elkayem
Originally Posted By: Rickster
The Chickering grands made by Baldwin in the early 80's - early 90's were Baldwins with the Chickering name on the fall board... very nice pianos. They had the accujust hitch pins too (specific Baldwin DNA)
In the 2003 version of The Piano Book, Fine writes that Baldwin's Chickering line of grands was adapted from the Classic line, which "received one of the worst reviews ever to grace the pages of The Piano Book." He also states that in the most recent survey (as of 2003), every one of the Chickering grands "received poor marks for tone quality, with technicians calling the tone 'hollow', 'woody', 'brassy', and 'not very pleasant.' " Is this the source of Baldwin's suit?

I believe Larry Fine was referring to models from the late 90's.

Well, I based my comments about the Baldwin made Chickering from my own personal experience playing one on occasion. I’ve also tuned it a few times.

Okay, what the heck… I disagree with Fine and all his technician friends here… maybe the one I play on occasion is an anomaly and all the rest of them are crap. smile

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1939664 - 08/09/12 12:48 AM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: Rickster]
Elkayem Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/12
Posts: 160
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
Rick, if only Larry had included you in his survey, how differently things would have turned out for Baldwin. If only... wink
_________________________
Schimmel 130T

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#1939689 - 08/09/12 02:38 AM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: Mike Carr]
Mike Carr Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/20/09
Posts: 714
Loc: BANNED
I’m not sure I'd give equal weight to both a gossipy trade journal fluff piece and a Federal Judge’s findings, but it does illustrate the risk of showing up in court armed with little more than innuendo and second-guessing after the fact.

I kinda doubt Wanger's tale of woe was introduced as evidence. The tip-off was when she glossed over the previous fearless leader's 9 billion dollar bankruptcy as "some financial trouble in the 70s." Hmm. She could've at least gotten the right decade. About like saying Charles Manson was a pretty good old boy except for that rought spot in the sixties. And what's up with the needs pyramid? Huh? Is that anything like the cone of truth? Self actualization? Sounds like something at a renaissance fair.

And all these ex-Baldwin executives running around? Seems like they'll say whatever you want them to say quicker than a hobo will jump on a ham sandwich. I guess they're still hungry.

Mike


_________________________
smoke 'em if you got 'em

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#1939791 - 08/09/12 09:34 AM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: K-52SM]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1540
Loc: Danville, California
Mike

Thanks for your usual insightful comments.grin



Edited by Furtwangler (08/09/12 11:15 AM)

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#1939902 - 08/09/12 02:53 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: Pianolance]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10522
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: Pianolance
According to Larry Fines piano book, early editions, Baldwin made an incredible range of products that went from among the best in the world to among the worst. The way I understand it, they even sued Larry because of his reviews of their products.


Just to clarify (and posting as Larry's representative):

There was never legal action between Larry Fine and Baldwin.

Larry's policy has always been to provide manufacturers a copy of his review (now Company Profile] prior to publication, to provide them with the opportunity to check for factual errors. In an early edition of The Piano Book (c. 1989) upon review Baldwin was unhappy with its review and threatened Larry with legal action. Rather than make changes he felt were unjustified, Larry simply omitted Baldwin from the brand review and instead posted a notice explaining why he omitted Baldwin.

When the next edition cane out several years later Baldwin did not repeat their objection.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1939923 - 08/09/12 03:25 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: K-52SM]
Pianolance Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 1192
Loc: Nashville, TN
Thanks for that clarification Steve. I had that edition of the piano book, which was very strange, specifically for its omission of the Baldwin brand. I remember reading Larrys explination at the time, but that was so many years ago that it was a bit fuzzy. I looked for my old copy of The Piano Book but alas it is nowhere to be found. So legal action was only a threat and didn't actually take place.
_________________________
Knabe 5'2" Louis XV Walnut circa 1927
Very part time piano broker.

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#1939930 - 08/09/12 03:43 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: K-52SM]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10522
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Correct.

And you post wssn't really a problem, I just felt uncomfortable not clarifying.

It is surprising, at least to me, that in all the years that Larry has been publishing industry facts, opinions ratings, and pricing information, that he hasn't ever been sued.
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1939988 - 08/09/12 05:57 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: K-52SM]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14186
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Amazing, but just heard the new news of who's apparently building the new grands for Baldwin in China now.

Word must be going around who's good over there...

Baldwin reps: when you're making the announcement?

Norbert wink
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1939994 - 08/09/12 06:09 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: K-52SM]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10522
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
I'm not a Baldwin rep but I was told [not confidentially] that it was Parsons.

Were you told differently?







Edited by Steve Cohen (08/09/12 06:10 PM)
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1939995 - 08/09/12 06:11 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: Steve Cohen]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1540
Loc: Danville, California
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
I'm not a Baldwin rep but I was told [not confidentially of course] that it was Parsons.





Does Parsons own any Savings & Loans?

Would they like to?? grin

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#1940188 - 08/10/12 06:45 AM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: K-52SM]
BoseEric Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 731
Loc: Fairfield County, CT
Also, F Troop ... (sorry, I tuned in late)
_________________________
RPT. In the business: Feurich pianos, Neupert harpsichords, Hidrau benches, piano technician

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#1940296 - 08/10/12 11:48 AM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: Furtwangler]
Mike Carr Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/20/09
Posts: 714
Loc: BANNED
Furtwangler,

Quote:
Thanks for your usual insightful comments.




If you say so. What I’m more concerned about is accuracy, probably like a lot of people who prefer a piano forum to a chat room or popularity contest. Your statement from an, er, ex-Badlwin executive that Baldwin’s demise was “swift and sudden”, shows a lack of familiarity with the facts which you further compound by offering a “case history” from an industry writer who seems more interested in leadership theories and gossip than any actual history.

Does any of this matter ten years down the road? No. Ultimately you are left with one fact, Baldwin wasn’t selling enough pianos to cover a long legacy of missteps.

What's a name worth? Despite becoming the Baldwin executive men's club's favorite scapegoat, former CEO Karen Hendricks was able to clear hers. After all the finger pointing, the numerous recitals of alleged acts, and the gossip and innuendo, District Court Judge Thomas Rose made his ruling, “Essentially all of the unsecured creditors’ alleged breaches consist of an arguable fact followed by unsupported allegations of what could have occurred, but did not occur, based on the arguable fact. Said another way, the unsecured creditors’ alleged breaches consist mainly of after-the-fact second-guessing.”

Mike
_________________________
smoke 'em if you got 'em

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#1940301 - 08/10/12 11:55 AM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: K-52SM]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN


We can read, have read, and don't need to read it again.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1940304 - 08/10/12 11:59 AM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Mike Carr Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/20/09
Posts: 714
Loc: BANNED

A guy standing on a street corner holding up a sign? Somehow, Marty, that fits you perfectly.

Mike
_________________________
smoke 'em if you got 'em

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#1940309 - 08/10/12 12:05 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: K-52SM]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
You know nothing about me - I do tire of you, however.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1940310 - 08/10/12 12:07 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: K-52SM]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8582
Loc: Georgia, USA
Come on, folks, I know this thread has been entertaining, but let’s keep it civil...

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1940328 - 08/10/12 01:00 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: K-52SM]
Plowboy Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/08
Posts: 2384
Loc: SoCal
I don't always read posts from piano forum iconoclasts, but when I do, I read Mike Carr.

Sometimes Mike is off the mark, but he provides some useful insight. The fact that so many industry people dislike him must mean something. I think he's a good part of the forum, different viewpoints should always be welcome.

Civility is always welcome, too, of course.
_________________________
Gary

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#1940333 - 08/10/12 01:07 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: K-52SM]
K-52SM Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 38
Whats A Name Worth ???? HOW CAN AN OLD FAMILIAR FRIEND LIKE IVERS & POND, CHICKERING, WURLITZER, CONN, WINTER, LESTER OR EVEN BETSY ROSS (LOL) BE BORN AGAIN ??? SAY CHICKERING IS GIVEN A NEW REBIRTH AND WE HAVE FOUND OUR SOURCE TO HELP US PRODUCE OUR PREMIUM PERFORMANCE PIANOS, WHAT MODELS SHOULD BE REINTRODUCED FROM THE GOLDEN ERA OF PIANOS. WHAT STYLES, FINISHES, AND AT WHAT PRICE POINT WOULD MAKE THE LINE SUCCESSFUL, KEEPING IN MIND THAT THE GOAL IS TO MAKE CHICKERING A MORE ACCESSIBLE PREMIUM PERFORMANCE PIANO THAT CHICKERING ONCE WAS. ACCESSABLE TO MORE MUSIC TEACHERS, THE MIDDLE CLASS, INSTITUTIONS, STUDENTS AND THOSE DESIREING MORE THAN JUST AN ORDINARY COMMON PIANO. WHAT WOULD THAT PIANO SELL FOR

TOMMY

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#1940342 - 08/10/12 01:32 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: K-52SM]
Pianolance Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 1192
Loc: Nashville, TN
Word of the day:
i·con·o·clast 
noun
1. a person who attacks cherished beliefs, traditional institutions, etc., as being based on error or superstition.
2. a breaker or destroyer of images, especially those set up for religious veneration.

By the way, typing in all caps is the equivalent of "SHOUTING"
_________________________
Knabe 5'2" Louis XV Walnut circa 1927
Very part time piano broker.

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#1940344 - 08/10/12 01:35 PM Re: What's A Name Worth?? [Re: K-52SM]
Pianolance Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 1192
Loc: Nashville, TN
Originally Posted By: K-52SM
Whats A Name Worth ???? HOW CAN AN OLD FAMILIAR FRIEND LIKE IVERS & POND, CHICKERING, WURLITZER, CONN, WINTER, LESTER OR EVEN BETSY ROSS (LOL) BE BORN AGAIN ??? SAY CHICKERING IS GIVEN A NEW REBIRTH AND WE HAVE FOUND OUR SOURCE TO HELP US PRODUCE OUR PREMIUM PERFORMANCE PIANOS, WHAT MODELS SHOULD BE REINTRODUCED FROM THE GOLDEN ERA OF PIANOS. WHAT STYLES, FINISHES, AND AT WHAT PRICE POINT WOULD MAKE THE LINE SUCCESSFUL, KEEPING IN MIND THAT THE GOAL IS TO MAKE CHICKERING A MORE ACCESSIBLE PREMIUM PERFORMANCE PIANO THAT CHICKERING ONCE WAS. ACCESSABLE TO MORE MUSIC TEACHERS, THE MIDDLE CLASS, INSTITUTIONS, STUDENTS AND THOSE DESIREING MORE THAN JUST AN ORDINARY COMMON PIANO. WHAT WOULD THAT PIANO SELL FOR

TOMMY


Tommy, you should consult with Rich G, he did it with the
Matchless Cunningham. He knows the ins and outs and pratfalls.
_________________________
Knabe 5'2" Louis XV Walnut circa 1927
Very part time piano broker.

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