Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread

This thread is great - But this has to be the fastest version on YouTube!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHPrUqjvyJ0

dont take it to seriously like some people.

Bar 34: This one is very tricky because it 'clashes' with the G# pedal. Double check the score here and I think you'll find it's not F#. This is probably the trickiest bar in the passage.

I had C#dim7 for this one ...

But I'll be happy to change it

I have a feeling the double sharps are a clue. But sorry, don't no my scales either.

Hi Carol, sorry I missed this morning. Glad you are back. How are you making out?

Me, not so good and could use help. I stumped with the diminishes again.

Well, not seeing too much activity lately accept my own.

It has occurred to me, that perhaps I should get a life too...

Be back tomorrow ...

LOL

Well, aurally I do much the same thing too. In other words, although there are many things that go INTO recognizing what the chords are, visually and aurally (such as melody and bass), I think having them mapped out is VITAL to getting a sense of the music.

Furthermore, because HOW the ear works is so strange, there is a subconscious link between what we see and what we feel that is actually connected to correct sounds.

So these next points are VERY important:

1) Anyone who listens to music and has a sense of what is good - and not good - hears, and hears well. An example would be my wife who has no formal training in music. If there is a wrong note, she knows it. She has no idea WHAT is wrong, she just knows that it is wrong. And when I have her listen to two different recordings of the same, she immediately picks up on which one is better, or how they are different.

2) There are many aspects to hearing, and they all develop at different times for different people. People do not realize that that there is a whole universe of abilities that really are working, but when we go to access them consciously, they SEEM go away. I know this is true because it happens to me all the time.

3) You should never neglect or undervalue your strongest sense, because it is your way in. In foreign language I could always read long before I could speak, so at first I always appeared to be the class dummy for conversation, but by pushing ahead with my strength, my ability to absorb new words and sense patterns, I actually caught up to and passed other people who seemed to be aheard of me.

I don't think it will take years. Furthermore, analysis is fun for for those who have natural ability at it - and when done correctly, with purpose it is very important for many things. It is another example of using what comes more naturally to ease into those things that are less natural.

Think, for example, of what it means to play a bunch of chords that use the same "key set". If you play a section that has nothing be C# and F#, in the chords, it's a strong clue that any extra notes in the melody are non-harmonic and that your key, at the moment, is D or B minor.

Hi Greener. I'm not doing so well either. I also have trouble with diminished chords. Things seem to have gotten much harder.

Here's a long post on dim7 chords, followed by a second short post with an exercise which I think will help with dim7 chords.

This post is long but I think learning this will really help you with naming chords.  Work through it one paragraph at a time if you need to, and ask questions.

Measure 32:




I would explain this differently.  Greener, by listing those four dim7 chords you have correctly seen that any dim7 chord can have four different names, depending on which note you pick as the root.  That's because the dim7 chord is extremely symmetrical, with three half steps from each note to the next.  If you're looking at it physically on the piano, there are two keys (black or white) between each two notes of the dim7 chord.

The notes Beethoven gives us are  D#, F#, A, B#.

(Wait, what about the bass G#?  Ok, the very first step is these notes: G# D# F# A B#.  Uh-oh, this is going to have a problem being a normal chord name because it has three letters right next to each other: F# G# A.  Can I fix that somehow?  Well, looking at the nearby measures I see that G# is being repeated over and over in the bass.  So maybe this is a G# pedal note, meaning a repeated bass note that isn't part of the chord above it.  I'll try calling it a pedal note, and see if I can find a chord name for the remaining notes D# F# A B#.)

Looking at these as physical keys on the keyboard, you may find yourself thinking of these as Eb, F#, A, C.  Or you might see these as a certain sequence of black and white keys.  Those might be helpful ways to see these notes physically for playing them, but they will mislead you when you try to find the precise music theory name for the chord.

The precise spelling for a dim7 chord (or any type of seventh chord) has four letters, skipping a letter in between.  It starts at the root as the first letter.  The last letter, the seventh, is one letter before the root.

So let's look at the possibilities:
B#dim7... B# D# F# A (ding ding ding we have a winner already!  But let's look at the other possible names for this set of physical keys.). Notice, by the way, that the last letter, A, is one letter before the first letter, B#.

D#dim7... D# F# A C.  Notice how this is physically the same keys as for B#dim7, but now we're naming the white key to the left of two black keys as C, not B#.  This is because of the skip-a-letter rule; in this case, to skip a letter from A to C.  Notice that the last letter, C, is one letter before the first letter, D#.

F#dim7... F# A C Eb.  Ok, this is wierd, how did we get both sharp and flat in the same chord?  Answer: it's forced on us by the skip-a-letter rule.  F#, skip G, plain A fine, skip B, plain C, fine, skip D, the last letter has to be some type of E.  Counting over three half steps from the previous note, C, gives us the right-most of the two black keys.  Hmmm, naming that as a type of E, it must be Eb.  Notice that the last letter, Eb, is one letter before the first letter, F#.

Adim7... A C Eb Gb.  Here, how did we know to use C (not B#), to use Eb (not D#), and to use Gb (not F#)?  From the skip-a-letter rule.  Root is A.  Skip B.  Next note is C, fine.  Skip D.  Next note must be a type of E, and physically it has to be the rightmost of the group of two black keys, so Eb.  Skip F.  Next note has to be a type of G, and by counting half-steps it has to be the left-most of the group of three black keys, so it must be called Gb.  Notice that the last letter, Gb, is one letter before the first letter, A.

Adding the pedal note back in, we name this chord as B#dim7/G#.

Now, all of that is for music written with picky precise spelling.  In this Sonata, we have seen such unusual note names as E#, Fx, and B#.  This suggests that Beethoven is being very precise in his note names, for a reason.  So to be able to later on figure out the larger picture of what these chords are telling us, we should find the precise chord names that match Beethoven's precise spelling.

Now, all that said, AIUI on a lead sheet you might see a different convention.  There a dim7 chord would be named by the lowest note.  So this dim7 chord, with D# as the bottom note (except for the pedal G#), might be written D#dim7/G#.  The purpose being to get you to the correct keys on the keyboard quickly without fussing about with inversions. (I know very little about lead sheets, but I think I recall being told this).

Exercise for diminished 7 chords. First let's agree on what they are: pick a note on the keyboard. Go up three half steps. Add that note. Go up another three half-steps. Add that note. Go up another three half-steps. Add that note. Now you have four notes, all evenly spaced. If you go up another three half-steps, you will find that you are back at the starting note (except an octave higher).

A. Practice finding these at the keyboard, starting from any note. Start from both black and white notes. Play them as block chords and as arpeggios. What words would you use to describe the sound?

B. Pick a dim7 chord. Play it. Now move the bottom note to the top, so you have a new bottom note. Play it. Continue until you get back to your starting point. This shows you a family of four dim7 chords which are all exactly the same physical notes, just rotating which one is the root. How many families do you find?

C. Notation. Take a piece of music paper or draw a staff of five lines. Draw a bass or treble clef, whichever one you prefer to work in. Play a dim7 chord on the keyboard. Write down its lowest note as a whole note. Then draw three more notes above it to create a tall 4-note snowman. (What I mean is: if your starting note is a line note, add whole notes for the next three lines going up. If your first note is a space note, add whole notes for the next three spaces going up.). Now add accidentals as needed so that your notes match what you played.

For example: play Cdim7. Looking at the keyboard, you might call these notes middle C, Eb, F#, A. Notation: draw C and the next three lines: E,G,B. Add accidentals: the second note has to really be Eb. The third note has to be Gb. The fourth note, wierd, how can B on the staff turn into the A that you see on the keyboard? Answer: use a double-flat!!!! Bbb.

Hint: if the root of your dim7 chord is a black note, call it by its sharp name, not its flat name. For example, A#dim7, not Bbdim7. There's a reason for this which I'll explain in a later post.

Group your chords into the families you found at the keyboard, of "same physical notes.". Compare the notation in these families.

D. Letter names: (you can read this off the notation exercise C, or read it off the keyboard, or visualize it in your mind): Write out the letter note names in each dim7 chord. Group your chords into the families you found at the keyboard, and compare the letter names for each of the four chords in a family.

E. Find some of the dim7 chords we've found in Moonlight Sonata. Do they make more sense now?

I learned all of this from Gary D, and the idea of examining things from several points of view from keystring.

That was meant to be short! It takes a lot of words to write out what would be simple to show in person. It may seem like several steps, but since dim7 chords show up several times in the Moonlight Sonata, and because they are important chords, but are being somewhat of a stumbling block, I think it's time well spent to work through this. It should make dim7 chords seem much less mysterious and arbitrary. Post your results, comments, questions here.

You mean like ... Every Good Boy Deserves Fudge ?

32. B#dim7
33. C#m
34. F##dim7
35. B#dim7

all over G#

I thought we were ignoring the the G#. But it seems G# matters ...

Greener, I agree with your chords for mm.32-35. It won't surprise you to know that I think it's important to mention the G# pedal for each measure, whether with slash notation or in words.

OK. I'm back now. My, my! What's been happenin'?

Gary D.: I sent you a PM this morning. Did you see it?

PianoStudent88: Glad you liked the cadence. Thanks for the ragging

Carol: Nice to have you back. Sorry you're having difficulties.
Have you been using the steps I showed earlier in the week? And if so, at what step are you having difficulties?
Step 1: list all the notes, bass, ostinato and melody
Step 2: remove the duplicates
Step 3: put them in keyboard or alphabetic order
Step 4: examine each combination and try to make a chord name for it, cycling the notes from the bottom to the top
Step 5: pick the most likely combination
Step 6: put the bass note back in the notation.

Let's look at bar 32.
Step 1: list notes. There's a G# bass, and at this stage may just be a pedal note and we might be able to ignore it. There's no melody note just an arpeggio, D#, A, F# in the first triplet and B#, A, D# in the second. The same notes are used to the end of the bar.
Step 2: remove dups. D#, A, F#, B#
Step 3: put them in keyboard/alphabetic order
D#, F#, A, B# (keyboard) or A, B#, D#, F# (alphabetic)

Step 4: examine each combination. There are four notes, so there will be four combinations each starting on a different note. Look at them on a keyboard if it helps.
1) D#-F#-A-B# 2) F#-A-B#-D# 3) A-B#-D#-F# 4) B#-D#-F#-A

All the notes in each combination are a minor third apart so we have a diminished seventh chord. Diminished sevenths do not have adjacent note names. There must always be an intervening letter. In combination 1, 2 and 3 the A and B# are adjacent in 4 they are apart and B#-D# has an intervening C, D#-F# has an intervening E, and F#-A has an intervening G.

Step 5: pick the most likely combinattion: we'll use combination 4, B# dim 7.

Step 6: put the bass note back in the notation. The note in the bass was G#. That note is not in the chord so if we add it the chord name will change.
G# is a major third below our B# that changes a diminished triad to a dominant seventh and a diminished seventh into a dominant minor ninth just as it did in measure 12.

Our chord then is a B#dim7 with a G# pedal or a G# 7b9.

Greener: I see you've got it but check out step 6 above.

Edit: These are nasty, nasty chord names. And there's such a lot to take in. Don't be put off by them or feel you need to understand them. When we go back to Bach on our next project I'll try and explain how these chords came about as and when they occur and how they work. We started on a devil of a piece for analysis.

OK we're golden.

I believe I understand it now.

Thanks PS88/Richard. Clear. No more mistakes on diminishes in this analysis.

I believe we are cool now all the way up to 42 correct?

We are staying on the B#dim7/G# through 36/37, 38-39 are melodic still around the B#dim7/G# and we resolve to this lovely change in the 2nd beat of 40 ... Amaj

41. F#m6 , G#

And you even liked my F##dim7/G# ... how cool is that?

And I thought I knew chords pretty good ... go figure

Yikes, I see you all have been busy bees today. I was at the piano earlier, but "wasted" my two hours on regular practice. Now I better get in there again and work on Moonlight. Oh, I see we have been experiencing diminishing returns again.....they're tricky little buggers. I'd be happy to try the next section but I first have to go independently figure out 31-42. Back when I'm done.

I'll start putting together a summary then and once I've posted that we'll be set to go from b.42.

There are a couple of problems I'm having with the score and trying to resolve with first editions on IMSLP. If I can't find what I'm looking for I'll let it go.

Welcome back, JimF. Well done for getting some piano time in.

How are you doing, Carol?

I'll leave my summary for a little while and let you work away, shall I?

It may be a good idea to make sure we're all clear about what we're doing. Thoughts, anyone?

Yeah, you're telling me.

Jim, I pass the paton to you if you like. I am off thread now for rest of evening.

It was fun today though

This middle section can be tricky. I had measures and measures of nothing but F#dim7 before I decided "this can't possibly be right" and started over. Now that I'm looking at it again, it's making more sense and I don't know how I got so off-track the first time.

Gary, thank you for the observations about hearing and the encouragement to work from my strengths. Come to think of it, I learn foreign language phrases better if I can see them and not just hear them. Same for songs: I'm not a great sight-singer, but I can learn a melody easier with the score than just hearing it alone (or just seeing the words, but not the notes). So that suggests to me that starting from the paper analysis and then using that to suggest what to listen to might be a fruitful path for me.

richard, I hope you weren't waiting on me to post your summary. Got distracted by a plate of kabobs and a bbq grill. I am up for pressing on a bit more whenever everyone else is.

Hi guys. Thanks for the diminished chord lessons. I have very little time to post on weekends but I will read everything through thoroughly and work through this section tomorrow morning.

I'm really learning so much.