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#1942526 - 08/14/12 12:16 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: HeirborneGroupie]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2310
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
You won't detain us, Carol. We can carry on regardless while explaining what's gone before. This is probably the best time to boost you visual and aural recognition skills where you can use as much time as you like for each chord and learn them in the context of a great piece of music.

Spot on with your G#7. This is V7 in RN's and in the first inversion with the B# in the bass.

While you're there, this is also the mystery chord from bar 4. The first triplet is G#7, the second would be C#m in second inversion, the third and fourth triplets are G#7 with and without a suspended fourth but since we're in cut time the second triplet is not on a beat and so it constitutes passing notes rather than a change of chord. Take your time digesting this - it's not all obvious - and ask if you need more explanation.

Any volunteers for 7, 8 and 9?
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Richard

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#1942532 - 08/14/12 12:26 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: zrtf90]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Posts: 1859
Loc: Sheffield UK
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Bar 4 can best be understood by playing the last note of each triplet on its own up to the first beat of bar 5,


My ears pic up on F#, E, D#, B# resolving on Bar 5 as the melody

Originally Posted By: zrtf90


While you're there, this is also the mystery chord from bar 4. The first triplet is G#7, the second would be C#m in second inversion, the third and fourth triplets are G#7 with and without a suspended fourth but since we're in cut time the second triplet is not on a beat and so it constitutes passing notes rather than a change of chord.



I agree smile

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#1942544 - 08/14/12 12:41 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: zrtf90]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1859
Loc: Sheffield UK
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
For those learning the piece as we go - is there anyone? - the stretch in bar 8 is tricky for small hands but can you see why it's important that the thumb can make that A?



Yep, I can't reach it, gonna have to use my left hand to play the B. There's another stretch in bar 16 I can't reach, but Rossy showed me a way around it, I will show you guys should anyone need it when we get there. smile

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#1942550 - 08/14/12 12:47 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: zrtf90]
HeirborneGroupie Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 223
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Originally Posted By: zrtf90
You won't detain us, Carol. We can carry on regardless while explaining what's gone before. This is probably the best time to boost you visual and aural recognition skills where you can use as much time as you like for each chord and learn them in the context of a great piece of music.

Spot on with your G#7. This is V7 in RN's and in the first inversion with the B# in the bass.

While you're there, this is also the mystery chord from bar 4. The first triplet is G#7, the second would be C#m in second inversion, the third and fourth triplets are G#7 with and without a suspended fourth but since we're in cut time the second triplet is not on a beat and so it constitutes passing notes rather than a change of chord. Take your time digesting this - it's not all obvious - and ask if you need more explanation.

Any volunteers for 7, 8 and 9?



Wow. I was right? grin

I'm in the process of going through all the information in this thread and I'm sure you're right. This is a great learning opportunity for me.


Edited by HeirborneGroupie (08/14/12 12:50 PM)
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Carol
Kawai RX 2


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#1942553 - 08/14/12 12:49 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: Greener]
HeirborneGroupie Offline
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Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 223
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Originally Posted By: Greener
Hi Carol, thanks for coming back. Not sure I would worry too much about slowing things up. I need to count out the chords often as well, so you are in good company.

I agree with G#7 in measure 6. But we also have a C bass. So, I believe we will likely be calling it:

G#7/C

Further to this though, I think we agreed earlier in this thread that we will not be worrying about the 7, 9, 11, 13 etc. and instead just the root chord (triad.) Or, maybe it was just anything beyond the 7th. So, we may just call this ...

G#/C

Please stick around ... I for one am certainly learning a lot already.

Correction: I believe this should rather be written as:

G#/B# ... help Because of the score and key we are in?


Thanks. I plan on sticking around. I really want to get this.
_________________________
Carol
Kawai RX 2


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#1942583 - 08/14/12 01:48 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: HeirborneGroupie]
HeirborneGroupie Offline
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OK. Measure 7 I believe begins with two C# min triplets (2nd inversion) with C# in the bass followed by two F# min triplets (1st inversion) with F# in the bass. There is a slur mark above the measure that I think continues to include the 8th measure as well (it's hard to read). Measure 7 and 8 are one melodic phrase.
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Carol
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#1942620 - 08/14/12 03:16 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: thurisaz]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Loc: Sheffield UK
Bar 8, first two triplets, EMaj/B

2nd two triplets: A, B, D# (I'm stuck!)

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#1942626 - 08/14/12 03:24 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: thurisaz]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
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You're right with the chords in measure 7, Carol, but as the root is in the bass for each they're considered to be in root position regardless of the right hand configuration.

There is a slur from bar 7 to 8 but I believe the phrase extends from bar 6 to the first beat of bar 9. The chords through to the end of the phrase should be quite easy for you now if you'd like to have a go.

Wayne, that sounds very difficult taking the B in LH. You have a long way to travel in a short time and still keep the note not just pianissimo but without it jarring between the A and E around it.

I'm intrigued by how you'll handle bar 16!
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#1942629 - 08/14/12 03:28 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: thurisaz]
zrtf90 Offline
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Posts: 2310
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Wayne, it's not just A, B, D#. Write out ALL the notes (bass, melody, ostinato) in that half measure and see where you get. As another hint (as if that isn't enough) look at the chord it resolves to in the next bar.
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#1942630 - 08/14/12 03:30 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: thurisaz]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Loc: Sheffield UK
Bar 8, second half, contains the notes of D6. So maybe D6/B

I can only but try Richard lol wink

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#1942633 - 08/14/12 03:32 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: wayne33yrs]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
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Moving right along. Agreed, so to quickly recap, the chords that can be written above measure 7 are:

C#min (1st beat, 1st two triplets)
F#min (2nd beat, 2nd two triplets)

measure 8 ...

E/B (1st beat)
(2nd beat) ... B7

Good catch with the slur phrase Carol, I often don't notice these things. I would also like to ask why we see another PP at the top of measure 5. Aren't we already in PP?

OK that is all for me today ... off to see my Parole Officer laugh
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#1942634 - 08/14/12 03:32 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: wayne33yrs]
HeirborneGroupie Offline
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Me too Wayne. That's a hard one. I agree with the E Maj/B on the first two triplets. confused
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Carol
Kawai RX 2


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#1942638 - 08/14/12 03:34 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: thurisaz]
zrtf90 Offline
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smile

What notes do you get the most of? What notes is in bass?
You're really close!
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#1942644 - 08/14/12 03:43 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: Greener]
HeirborneGroupie Offline
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Originally Posted By: Greener

measure 8 ...

E/B (1st beat)
(2nd beat) ... B7

.....I would also like to ask why we see another PP at the top of measure 5. Aren't we already in PP?

OK that is all for me today ... off to see my Parole Officer laugh


Ok. I think I understand about the B7. I had to experiment with the notes though.

I'd like to know about the PP as well. Also, the rest before it. I don't know why it's positioned like that.
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Carol
Kawai RX 2


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#1942646 - 08/14/12 03:45 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: thurisaz]
wayne33yrs Offline
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I'm not concentrating again lol, we're dealing with D#, so it could be B dominant 7 or B9

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#1942651 - 08/14/12 03:54 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: zrtf90]
HeirborneGroupie Offline
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Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
You're right with the chords in measure 7, Carol, but as the root is in the bass for each they're considered to be in root position regardless of the right hand configuration



Oh. OK. I learned something there. Thanks Richard.
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Carol
Kawai RX 2


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#1942653 - 08/14/12 03:55 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: thurisaz]
Greener Offline

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Registered: 05/29/12
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Sorry Richard, I did not mean to jump in on your coaching. I was writing my last response before I saw what you had recently added in the thread (hand slap #2)
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#1942654 - 08/14/12 03:57 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: thurisaz]
zrtf90 Offline
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That's twice I've missed one of your posts, Greener. I must be more vigilant.

So now we have the B seventh in bar 8 resolving to E major in bar 9.

The rests in bar 5 are specifically for the melody which might conveniently be understood as being on a third staff and the PP is a precaution against taking this new melody too loud. Try to think of persuading the keys down for this ever so slightly more forcefully than the ostinato and the bass.
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#1942661 - 08/14/12 04:12 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: thurisaz]
zrtf90 Offline
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No problem, Greener, and no need for more hand slaps (unless you're enjoying them). Give masochists a fair crack of the whip, that's what I say!

Glad you got there, Wayne, with the B. Not sure where you got the possible ninth from though.
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Richard

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#1942674 - 08/14/12 04:43 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: wayne33yrs]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3156
Loc: Maine
Picking up on a few details which I can't find mentioned elsewhere in the thread (but I may have overlooked it).

Originally Posted By: wayne33yrs
C#, D#, F# G# in the key signature, so it's written in C# minor.

It might also be E major, but the C# minor chord in the first measure strongly suggests C# minor, not E major.

Quote:
Bar 1: G#, C#, E (C# minor, 2nd INV)

Don't forget the notes in the bass clef, C#. So this is C#m in root position.

Quote:
Bar 2: errr is it C#minor7/B again 2nd INV?

Yes, the B in the bass makes it C#m7/B: 3rd inversion. (2nd inversion would be C#m7/G#.)

Quote:
First half of Bar 3: A major root Inv

When it's in root position, I call it root position, not root inversion.

Quote:
Second half of Bar 3: D major/F# 2nd Inv.

D/F# is 1st inversion. The inversion is determined by the lowest note, ignoring the order of the notes above. For D major chord (D F# A), D lowest is root position. F# lowest is 1st inversion. A lowest is second inversion.
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#1942679 - 08/14/12 04:49 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: thurisaz]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Loc: Maine
Measure 3.

Originally Posted By: thurisaz
I like using Roman numeral analysis (Wikipedia has an introduction), since it helps to see the functional relationships. Adding that to what's been done so far, we have: 1. c# (i), 2. c#/B (i), 3. A (VI (or III of IV)), D/F# (VI of IV), 4. G# (V). Adding the Roman numerals helps me think about what's happening with modulation, etc; in this case, I'm still a bit confused about the second half of the third bar. D is not a chord in the key of c#; I've resorted to annotating it as the VI chord of F# minor (the subdominant key) but I don't think that's quite right. It almost seems like there's an aborted attempt at modulation here and in bar 4, but I'm not convinced that's right either. It also almost seems like a VI-ii-V progression, but D isn't the ii chord of c#. On the other hand, thinking of it as f# +5 would give something like a VI-IV-V, which seems to make more sense.

I would not think of it as F#m(aug5) because I think Beethoven is really careful with his note spelling in this piece (witness the Fx in m.27). F#m(aug5) would be F# A Cx, but the notes here are F# A D. That suggests by spelling a D major chord.

In a variation of Roman numerals, it can be called bII. Since it's in first inversion, perhaps it's a Neapolitan sixth chord. The next chord is G#7, the dominant chord of our C# minor key, and AIUI that's where the Neapolitan sixth chord is supposed to resolve to.

I know very little about Neapolitan sixth chords, so I hope someone who knows more about them will either confirm or deny.
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Ebaug(maj7)

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#1942682 - 08/14/12 04:57 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: thurisaz]
zrtf90 Offline
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Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Hi PianoStudent88! Thanks for joining in. smile

Your first point about the key signature is good but there's a bit at the top of the page where it says "Piano Sonata No. 14 in C-sharp minor" that kind of gives it away. smile

I think we just covered the inversion question a couple of posts ago but it's worth reading it it again. These things need to be drummed in at first.

--------------------------------------------------

So, we're done up to bar 9 now. Is there anything we've missed?

The next section to tackle is a little longer and goes from bar 9 to the first beat of bar 15. When you get there the rest of the piece should give you little trouble.
Any takers?

(It's worth doing this on your own even if you don't publish - you learn best by doing.)

If you're learning this on the piano as we go I advise you to memorise bars 1 to 5 on their own. Get them right each day, nice and slowly, then repeat them seven to ten times without error. Do the same with bars 5 to 9.

When you can do both sections right, from memory, first time each day then you can join them together and just repeat them three or four times a day before starting on the next section.

Treating the sections individually means they're short enough to memorise easily, you're more aware of wrong notes creeping in and are more likely to correct them as you go. This will speed up the learning process inordinately. If you include at the end of each section the start of the next one they will knit together quite easily.

For two or three of your repetitions while you're memorising I recommend pausing on each beat, that's twice per bar, to test your recall, reinforcing the memorisation, and to help bring out the pulse (it will embed itself in your subconscious).
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Richard

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#1942684 - 08/14/12 05:04 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: zrtf90]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Posts: 3156
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
Hi PianoStudent88! Thanks for joining in. smile

Playing with chords, how can I resist? laugh

Quote:
Your first point about the key signature is good but there's a bit at the top of the page where it says "Piano Sonata No. 14 in C-sharp minor" that kind of gives it away. smile

I'm using my own copy (Willard Palmer edition from Alfred) which just calls it "Sonata quasi una Fantasia 'Moonlight Sonata'" smile .

Quote:
I think we just covered the inversion question a couple of posts ago but it's worth reading it it again. These things need to be drummed in at first.

I'm having to read the thread several times to absorb everything in it!
_________________________
Ebaug(maj7)

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#1942688 - 08/14/12 05:08 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: thurisaz]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3156
Loc: Maine
Measure 4: in the preceding discussion, it seems to have been settled as G#, or G#7 for the whole measure. That leaves the two C#'s and the E in the middle of the measure as non-chordal notes. To me it makes more sense to consider measure 4 as four chords, one on each half-beat:

G#7
C#m/G#
C#sus2/G#
G#7

The D# in C#sus2 acts as an anticipation of the D# in the final G#7 chord.

It's as if Beethoven is flirting around with resolving to C#m, and then flits back to G#7, and then in m.5 resolves strongly to C#m in root position.

(ETA: Oh, on rereading I just found this:
Originally Posted By: zrtf90
While you're there, this is also the mystery chord from bar 4. The first triplet is G#7, the second would be C#m in second inversion, the third and fourth triplets are G#7 with and without a suspended fourth but since we're in cut time the second triplet is not on a beat and so it constitutes passing notes rather than a change of chord. Take your time digesting this - it's not all obvious - and ask if you need more explanation.

I'm not sure if I agree. The triplets are so much part of the harmony I hate to relegate any of them to passing notes only. I see how it's stronger to call the downbeat of beat 2 as G#sus4 instead of C#m(sus2), but I wonder if the fact that there are two names for this chord points to a cleverly-used ambiguity, of Beethoven sliding back and forth between G# and C#.)


Edited by PianoStudent88 (08/14/12 05:13 PM)
Edit Reason: quote from zrtf90, and response
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Ebaug(maj7)

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#1942690 - 08/14/12 05:13 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: thurisaz]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2310
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
I'm having to read the thread several times to absorb everything in it.

Ah, the perils of arriving late!

We're using the IMSLP link from the OP (and I'm using my ABRSM version too).

Yes, it is indeed the Neapolitan sixth in bar 3!

Let's get this one out of the way quickly. It's not a sixth! We don't know where the name comes from as it predates the Neapolitan school. And yes, it resolves to the dominant seventh.

Good catch! smile

Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
Measure 4: in the preceding discussion, it seems to have been settled as G#, or G#7 for the whole measure. That leaves the two C#'s and the E in the middle of the measure as non-chordal notes.


Again, I think we resolved this when Carol solved bar 6.
_________________________
Richard

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#1942691 - 08/14/12 05:19 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: wayne33yrs]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Posts: 3156
Loc: Maine
Measure 8, second beat.
Originally Posted By: wayne33yrs
I'm not concentrating again lol, we're dealing with D#, so it could be B dominant 7 or B9

B7, not B9. B9 would need a C#.

One quick way to identify the possible root of a chord is to see if there are two notes that are next to each other in the alphabet. E.g. A and B in this measure. That suggests a possible 7 chord; the letter that appears later in the alphabet will be the root. You have to then check this by looking at the other notes, and also to see if it makes harmonic sense to name it that way, but this is a shortcut I've come up with.
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Ebaug(maj7)

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#1942696 - 08/14/12 05:29 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: Greener]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3156
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Greener
I agree with G#7 in measure 6. But we also have a C bass. So, I believe we will likely be calling it:

G#7/C

Further to this though, I think we agreed earlier in this thread that we will not be worrying about the 7, 9, 11, 13 etc. and instead just the root chord (triad.) Or, maybe it was just anything beyond the 7th. So, we may just call this ...

G#/C

Please stick around ... I for one am certainly learning a lot already.

Correction: I believe this should rather be written as:

G#/B# ... help Because of the score and key we are in?

The score writes this as B#. That makes sense, because the notes G# B# D# F# are the traditional spelling for the G#7 chord. B# also suggests that it's the raised seventh for the key C# minor.

Writing plain C washes out all of those visual harmonic hints.

I understand that as music progresses through time, this kind of hypervigilant spelling starts being broken for various reasons, but I find it helpful to use it in music that does provide those clues.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (08/14/12 05:30 PM)
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#1942703 - 08/14/12 05:45 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: thurisaz]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Loc: Maine
Measures 1-9: we have resolved to E major, the relative major to our starting key of C# minor.

Beethoven has taken us on quite a harmonic journey already, starting with the minor 7 chord on the tonic already in measure 2. Then the piquant Neapolitan chord in m.3, some supension in the middle of m. 4, and restful resolution to C#m in m. 5 Then the melody starts, and it seems as if we will stay in C# minor with G#7 in m.6 followed by C#m to start m.7. But the subsequent developments through m.9 show that C#m in m.7 is a pivot chord, and the three measures 7,8,9 can be read as a circle of fifths progression in E major

m. 7: vi, ii
m. 8: I64, V7
m. 9: I

I recall reading recently about the I64 (tonic chord in second inversion) being a standard part of certain cadences, but I forget which cadences, and why.

Originally Posted By: zrtf90
The next section to tackle is a little longer and goes from bar 9 to the first beat of bar 15. When you get there the rest of the piece should give you little trouble.

I don't agree that past m.15 is so simple. I find dim7 chords past there, and a sus4 chord. Even the end is tricky (what is that A doing in mm. 66-69? Don't answer that, I'll wait till we get there! smile .)

On "Neapolitan sixth" nomenclature, I always understood that to come from figured bass notation for inversions. Since the Neapolitan chord is normally used in first inversion, the figured bass symbol for that is a superscript 6. hence Neapolitan Sixth or N6. Admittedly, and confusingly, this is different from what we commonly call a six chord now, which is a triad plus the sixth above the root.
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#1942705 - 08/14/12 05:48 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: thurisaz]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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OK, now I'm all caught up and will quit hogging the thread after this post laugh .

Measure 9: E, already identified.
Measure 10: Em

For those more harmonically experienced than I am, does going from a major chord to the same root, but minor, suggest any expectations?
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Ebaug(maj7)

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#1942719 - 08/14/12 06:08 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata First Mvmnt study thread [Re: thurisaz]
zrtf90 Offline
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Registered: 02/29/12
Posts: 2310
Loc: Ireland (ex England)
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
I'm not sure if I agree. The triplets are so much part of the harmony I hate to relegate any of them to passing notes only. I see how it's stronger to call the downbeat of beat 2 as G#sus4 instead of C#m(sus2), but I wonder if the fact that there are two names for this chord points to a cleverly-used ambiguity, of Beethoven sliding back and forth between G# and C#.)


Disagreeing is great! That's how we learn from dialogue and discussion. smile

Beethoven relegated them to passing notes with his Alla breve time sig.

My inclination is to add up the bass, the six ostinato notes and the melody all together as the notes constituting the beat and see what results.

I get the G# sus 4 from the bass note. I don't get the second name as the first one is already evident (Occam's Razor). As I'm doing the analysis I'm unconcerned about cleverly used ambiguity. Once I've understood what the composition is doing to a satisfactory level I need look no further. Beethoven can slide all he wants.

Knowing Schumann has written cryptographic messages into his score doesn't affect the analysis I perform on it to help me memorise it and help me form an interpretation.

And in bar 8, for example, I get five B's, two A's, two D#'s and an F#. The five B's strongly suggest B (yes, they really do smile ) and the rest in key order gives me B7.

Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
One quick way to identify the possible root of a chord is to see if there are two notes that are next to each other in the alphabet. E.g. A and B in this measure. That suggests a possible 7 chord; the letter that appears later in the alphabet will be the root. You have to then check this by looking at the other notes, and also to see if it makes harmonic sense to name it that way, but this is a shortcut I've come up with.


This wouldn't work for a suspended 4th! smile

I suspect Greener was playing at the keyboard when he came up with the G#/C but he corrected himself at the end of the post. I also believe a lot of this wouldn't be happening if we'd started with a piece in C major.

Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
I don't agree that past m.15 is so simple. I find dim7 chords past there, and a sus4 chord. Even the end is tricky (what is that A doing in mm. 66-69? Don't answer that, I'll wait till we get there! .)

True, there are more complex chords further along but after handling 12 thru' 14 I think we'll have a much better handle on how we do this and we'll be getting more used to dealing with a minor key. We've not started with the easiest piece for learning analysis.

Delighted to know you've caught up now. smile
_________________________
Richard

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