Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, third movement

I was given a few bars highly simplified of the first movement so can play this LOL.




Do you mean this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0SeWXguVto

Probably both equally hard with the third movement of Moonlight harder!

Ah Valentina! She has been getting a mention on classic fm radio!

I come from a long living family on both sides ( 80s) so my genes might allow me to be around long enough to get to play at grade 3 but I cannot imagine getting beyond that- those runs and arpeggios are so fast!

I have however lately got to play chords faster and faster (with changes ) - with no teacher I am unsure of how rubbish I am! My friends enjoy my playing but they are kind!

Seriously though, I don't have straight fingers and my left little finger is quite bent and falls down on keys when it is not to be used- have to make big effort to control it. I am doing chord changes and playing fast as I can using this finger to try to get it more flexible.





Too right! Most of it is utter rubbish. I hardly listen to it these days. I rate Sigur Ros though.





You are very encouraging! When a guy played the 3rd movement of Moonlight on my piano ( not heard it before up til then ) I was so in awe I wanted to slink off and hide away. It seems so beyond me. However, I don't expect to get to that and just play cos I love Piano and actually never get fustrated or fed up when "playing"- it relaxes me. I play with no expectation in ever getting to be "good." If I live to 80 and die "good" it's a bonus!





I do need a teacher to "progress" really- I plan to when I get an income.

One of my students at the university level started when he was 18, teaching himself. Eventually he enrolled in a music program at a community college and spent a couple of years there before he was admitted to our university. He had a lot to work through because of previous teachers, but he is a perfectly capable pianist who plays collegiate material. He's 27 now.

I also teach at a community college. One of the piano majors there STARTED in piano CLASSES! That was his first exposure to music and piano. While he is not my student, he is now playing the easier Preludes and Fugues and easier Beethoven sonatas after three years, and he is playing them beautifully.

With dedication, it is more than possible. The problem for most adults is simply a matter of time - and I do not mean time left before they can no longer learn. I mean the time in any given day left to practice CHildrne do not have such time constraints usually. Adults are much busier. But if you can set aside 1-2 hours a day? You will flourish.

A teacher is a must, of course.

Is there a community college in your area? Look up their music classes.

Usually there are piano classes. If so, enroll in one. It isn't the same as having a private teacher, but it is better than nothing.

At the intermediate level, the classes are usually held as a masterclass (and by intermediate, I mean after the beginning sequence of Piano 1 and Piano 2). You will learn your piece and get specific help on it while also gaining performance experience.

And even if you can only take a beginning class, that's okay too.

He has done well!




Sounds like he has also done great! What age was he when he started and what grade is he now? Do you mean in three years (from a beginner) he can play the Preludes and Fugues?





Well funny thing is I do have 1-2 hours a day to devote to piano most days being unemployed and not out at work all day( but I do voluntary work and have my applications etc to do)- but without a teacher I lack structured sessions so I tend to work on some sheet music then play my own pieces.

Community colleges in Britain don't teach piano but there are adult education centres which do leisure courses- sometimes they offer beginners keyboards which are 10 week courses. They got that starting in September- I have been to the guitar ones with the tutor before- he is good on the theory of music. The problem is loads of people with learning difficulties come on his courses and you can spend one whole lesson on them trying to find a note on the keyboard or guitar. I started keyboards two years ago and we spent one whole lesson on something I already knew- like playing all the G notes on the keyboard. I didn't go back to the class as I got a voluntary job in the city art gallery.No disrespect to the tutor but I am probably ahead of what he could teach me ( due to course constraints and time).
I shall have to play on alone and study my music theory books and internet stuff til I get the money for regular lessons.

The community college student started when he was either 17 or 18, I am not sure. But it was after he graduated from high school and attended the community college. Yes, in three years, he has just now started Preludes and Fugues from what I hear.

He learned the basics and then learned the intermediate repertoire. Now he is in early-advanced. To me, I'm always amazed when people think this process will take longer. The reality is that, with practice, it will happen much sooner than people imagine.

I'm sorry that I missed that you are in England. I'm not sure how the music education system works there, so I can't offer much help. But if you want structure in your learning, you may want to pursue a 'programmed' method:


--
1) Theory: purchase a theory book (preferably an old edition of a college rudiments textbook) or use free online websites that teach the same basic rudiments (you can find many threads in this forum pertaining to this, just do a quick search)

Make sure you are doing your theory in application to the piano (eg, when you are writing chords, PLAY THE CHORDS!) as well as in ear-training (eg, when you ar0e learning the chords, play them all and listen to them and test your ears to be able to distinguish them!)

Sing, sing, sing!

2) Technique: get a graded technique series. I personally love the Keith Snell Scale Skills books - yes, in the long run it will cost you about $50-60, but that is after many many years. Each book only costs about 4-8 dollars to begin with. Purchase either the Prep level or Level 1 and be able to do everything in it at a decent speed. Then move onto the next book. Make sure you record yourself playing and put it on Youtube so others may comment on your technique.

3) Keyboard skills:

http://www.amazon.com/Alfreds-Adult...p;sr=8-1&keywords=alfred+group+piano

Purchase this textbook and follow it as it suggests (a 'week' to each lesson). It will cover theory and technique as well, but it includes many important skills for a pianist, including harmonizing, improvisation, sight-reading, score reading, etc. If anything, choose this text over anything else!

We require all of our piano majors to take a series of classes called 'Keyboard Skills.' This book plus the second, as well as other more difficult texts, all are required. They are excellent, but start with this one and follow it! It is INCREDIBLY structured for a self-learner who has some background in playing piano and music.

4) Pick a repertoire series and work through it. My preferred ones for self-learners are:

a- The Festival Collection
b- Masterwork Classics
c- First Impressions

The benefit of a series is that it will grade things. Alternatively, you could simply look at the contents and then print them from IMSLP.org

Then, set aside time each day for everything.

30 minutes on technique
30 minutes on Keyboard Skills
1 hour on pieces (work on 4-5 pieces at a time, in sections, and of a large variety)

That is 2 hours. Then do an additional 30 minutes to 1 hour of theory/ear-training every day as well.

Ah, now why you are surprised that I think this will take longer is that here it will! Music here is taught privately- it is not taught in state schools or colleges- those who wish to learn an instrument have to be well off enough to afford a music teacher coming to their home for years on end, and as a child being fortunate enough to go to a private school (school here is for children not adults- age 5-18). At the age of 18 then one may do a bachelor's degree in music at university.


Thanks for the info on books- I do have a few books. There is a little difference between US and UK methods and music terminology I believe so I will stick to UK books for now. I have one in mind I'd like to buy, having borrowed it from the library once- it was similar to how you describe in that it gave you things to read about then practise.
I'd say two hours is quite a lot though- I was told by a few music teachers here 30 mins to an hour a day! I don't look and see how long I spend on my piano- I seem to come more musically inclined at night, but don't want to disturb my next door neighbour too much although she doesn't seem to mind hearing the piano sometimes!
I did start Edward Weiss' new age piano online course when I had a little job over a year ago and found the improvising approach suiting me much better- I don't really have the aptitude for sight reading- I am hopeless at understanding timing having discalculi and do so much better on my own little compositions- I am so much further on this than sight reading.
From what my Mum tells me my uncle was similar- he could sit at the piano and play almost anything ( popular tunes) by ear and make up stuff and was way ahead of their sister who had the traditional sight reading lessons.
I have been told that not everybody has the aptitude for sight reading and one tends to be more chord/ear/own stuff orientated or sight reading orientated.
I do plan to get a teacher soon as possible and spend a few weeks with him/her and then getting the verdict upon my natural aptitude.
My brother plays keyboard (pop/jazz), played in a band a few years ago and cannot sight read a note! He understands chords, knows all the keys etc. He writes music and went to that Paul Mc Cartney music college in Liverpool 15 years ago- from what I know they teach the chord approach- he told me once I see the piano as chords and not a sea of keys my whole understanding will change. He gave me a chord book and advised me to learn them.

That's the beauty of the American education system. One can learn the piano later in life and still be able to attend a university for music. It just depends on their drive. Most people here, however, do start when they are much younger.

There are very few music terminology name differences. I'd advise you to learn both the UK and the US names. I'm not particularly familiar with any methods that come out of the UK, so I cannot comment on what you have or what you can use. However, as long as they fit into the categories above, you will be fine.

It doesn't have to be 2 hours. That was just an example. It all depends on how much time you want to spend on this. It can also include whatever you are inclined to learn. This is just a very 'standard' ratio.

I am not familiar with that online course. However, anyone who says "I can't read music because I'm not adept at it and am better with my ear" is full of it. Sorry, but it is true. Anyone can learn to read music and it really is not that difficult. However, it will greatly improve your abilities. Timing is more a factor of your internal rhythm than dyscalculia (my son actually has this and dyslexia - I know it shouldn't affect your ability to count for music). If numbers do confuse you, use words instead.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't improvise however. You definitely should. It will help you in many ways. Learning to read notes doesn't stop this. You also need to learn chords, yes, but the reality of it is more theory + keyboard topography. You want to know the geography of the keyboard perfectly and 'see' the chords and scales and intervals and much more. This takes time. Just keep at it

Most who attend university to do a music degree here too would have started playing as a child also, but then a 40 year old adult who had achieved grade 8 may also apply for a bachelor's degree in music too- in fact any age could as long as the fees could be paid... ( that's another issue). Probably not many adults over 30 doing music degrees though.





I don't know what the differences all are- the finger names are different though.






Considering the banging going on next door at the wee small hours right now I might want to make a racket on the piano for 2 hours!






I think maybe there is a more positive approach or belief in music teachers over the Atlantic- what I have been told here is that adults are in general poor music learners than children and youths, that not everyone has musical ability, some folks will always struggle with sight reading etc. One teacher told me he can tell in a few minutes of meeting a new student (especially an adult) if they have ability or not. He also said adults tend to be unable to count!
I always lose my place when sight reading and usually play music I already know cos when I play something I don't (when I had a teacher) I always got the timing and beat values totally wrong. I still don't understand them- beats..I mean how do you know how long a beat is..one second..two..three??..never could understand that.
I know a few people who play instruments by ear including piano and said they just couldn't learn reading music ( tried and tried) but play really well- some listen to music then play it by ear and make their own arrangements of it. I think perhaps the two are different skills?




I do keep on with sight reading but it is so stilted and clusmy, but when I play my own stuff it feels and is a totally different experience- it is creative, flowing and feels freer.

Hello there. I created quite a stir when I first joined this forum 7 years ago in another thread of similar question. In it, I believe I suggested that it was possible to learn this piece within a few days. I stand by that statement then as I do now (and at the time, was asked to prove it, which I did).

Many pieces sound extremely daunting, but in practice, are not so nasty as they sound. This movement, I believe, belongs in that category. There is one major technique to the entire piece (arpeggiated chords). It repeats throughout the piece, and once it is learned, there are few other difficulties to master provided the person attempting it has a good foundation to begin with.

That said, I would not approach this piece as a complete novice. It's fun, yes. But it's also a waste of time (which I did not understand until I was in my twenties). Don't spend six months trying to learn the notes and technique for the piece. Learn pieces you can get into your fingers in a week or two, build your technique and repertoire, and when it's the right time to touch the piece, pull it back out. (Spending six months on musicality, interpretation, and nuance is another thing entirely--I would argue one should never stop doing this even once they "know" a piece. Just don't spend that much time on learning the notes themselves.. not for this level piece.)

I just saw this post, I didn't read any of the previous replies -- I don't where the conversations were headed, but I'd like to add my own opinion here.

Moonlight Sonata's Third Movement is definitely a difficult and impressive piece; however, the reason why it's ranked intermediate/advanced is because it does not have extreme technicalities i.e trills, leaps, etc.. It is mostly composed of large chords, arpeggios, and it has a key change (which is probably the most annoying part to learn in this piece).

If you'd like to hear what an advanced/professional level piece is like, check these out:

Liszt, La Campanella: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD6xMyuZls0

Liszt, Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H99FM6S8rU

Chopin, Heroic Polonaise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW0Y3M4EJ4M

These are just a few examples.
However, Moonlight Sonata 3rd Mov, is a beautiful and quite difficult piece, as well.

The Heroic Polonaise= awesome!

I've been playing for all of 9 months, so I might get disregarded here. I can't believe the negativity with respect to saying people will not be able to reach such and such a level or play this piece because they started playing piano at age X. Who says?? I believe you can play any piece you want if you are willing to take the time to learn it.

When I come across a difficult piece, I think to myself, "I wonder when I will be able to play something like that or with that degree of expression and skill." I don't think to myself, "well shucks, I'm old and guess I'll never be able to play that." How depressing! Have a little faith and don't limit yourself.

Feel free to explain to me why I'm a starry-eyed newbie pianist who doesn't understand the technical reasons behind all this talk of limits. I don't care I'm going to keep playing and enjoy the ride. I don't see any limit to where any of us can go if we want it.

Bravo! I agree- self belief will take one far. However, piano teachers and certain articles I have read ( no one on this wonderful forum I hasten to add)have told me adults are slower learners and children faster and that adults have clumsy hands in general. In my case clumsy hands seems to be true. Today I was out in town and they had a piano in the street free to play. A young man in his late 20s (who was grade 8) was playing. He played Moonlight for me and people clapped him after. A boy who looked to be about 12 came along- a lovely sweet lad who has an electronic piano. He sat and played Adele's "Someone Like You" perfectly with very nimble hands and correct fingering- all self taught- fingering and learnt by ear! He has just started having theory and sight reading lessons. He is already way beyond me. I don't know if it is my age or maybe he plays more reguarly than I do.





Again, I admire your belief in yourself. I do tend to think I will never be able to do that, thinking I must be "realistic" as I middle aged with small stubby clumsy hands- heck I still even type with two fingers!
The index ones LOL. I do excel at cooking soup though...





Go you! What are you learning at the moment?

Whilst it is true in general that young people learn new skills more quickly than older people, clearly some older people will learn more quickly than some older people. It varies. Moreover, even if an older individual will learn more slowly than when s/he was younger, hey, who knows whether that person was originally a phenomenally fast learner?

My belief is that motivation and hard work takes people a long, long way. At the same time we all have our technical strengths and weaknesses. We all have some physical limitations. If we are, or become, wise, we will develop our repertoire as widely/deeply as we wish up to those limits. If we become convinced that there is a brick wall in some respect that try as we might we cannot break down, then the wise course is to quietly let go of pieces that contain that brick wall and enjoy all that music we can enjoy playing. But it should take a long time for that brick wall to convince us it's not going away.

I am not an adult beginner: I have been learning/playing the piano for 63 years. There are pieces I have no intention of even trying, but there are pieces, now, that I am progressing which a few years' ago I would have thought impossible for me. If we want to, we can learn new works at any age, we can explore composers new to us, so long as we remember how we are enjoying the journey, rather than dwelling on what we cannot yet do.

Not re the piano, but my wife - a similar age to me - started playing the 'cello about 4 years' ago. Later this year we and a violinist friend will perform a Haydn piano trio in front of friends. None of us is exceptional. It may not be very good on the night, who knows, but we have enjoyed learning and playing it together.

I bet you are all good and your friends will love the evening.

Many thanks!