Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) Yamaha CP4 Rebate
Yamaha CP4 Rebate
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
174 registered (alfredo capurso, accordeur, ajames, 36251, 47 invisible), 1547 Guests and 6 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Topic Options
#1941624 - 08/12/12 08:18 PM Re: Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, third movement [Re: EdwardianPiano]
Para Otras Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/12
Posts: 309
That's the beauty of the American education system. One can learn the piano later in life and still be able to attend a university for music. It just depends on their drive. Most people here, however, do start when they are much younger.

There are very few music terminology name differences. I'd advise you to learn both the UK and the US names. I'm not particularly familiar with any methods that come out of the UK, so I cannot comment on what you have or what you can use. However, as long as they fit into the categories above, you will be fine.

It doesn't have to be 2 hours. That was just an example. It all depends on how much time you want to spend on this. It can also include whatever you are inclined to learn. This is just a very 'standard' ratio.

I am not familiar with that online course. However, anyone who says "I can't read music because I'm not adept at it and am better with my ear" is full of it. Sorry, but it is true. Anyone can learn to read music and it really is not that difficult. However, it will greatly improve your abilities. Timing is more a factor of your internal rhythm than dyscalculia (my son actually has this and dyslexia - I know it shouldn't affect your ability to count for music). If numbers do confuse you, use words instead.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't improvise however. You definitely should. It will help you in many ways. Learning to read notes doesn't stop this. You also need to learn chords, yes, but the reality of it is more theory + keyboard topography. You want to know the geography of the keyboard perfectly and 'see' the chords and scales and intervals and much more. This takes time. Just keep at it smile

Top
(ad) Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1941647 - 08/12/12 09:01 PM Re: Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, third movement [Re: Para Otras]
EdwardianPiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/29/11
Posts: 788
Loc: Rainy England
Quote:
That's the beauty of the American education system. One can learn the piano later in life and still be able to attend a university for music. It just depends on their drive. Most people here, however, do start when they are much younger.



Most who attend university to do a music degree here too would have started playing as a child also, but then a 40 year old adult who had achieved grade 8 may also apply for a bachelor's degree in music too- in fact any age could as long as the fees could be paid... ( that's another issue). Probably not many adults over 30 doing music degrees though.


Quote:
There are very few music terminology name differences. I'd advise you to learn both the UK and the US names. I'm not particularly familiar with any methods that come out of the UK, so I cannot comment on what you have or what you can use. However, as long as they fit into the categories above, you will be fine.



I don't know what the differences all are- the finger names are different though.



Quote:
It doesn't have to be 2 hours. That was just an example. It all depends on how much time you want to spend on this. It can also include whatever you are inclined to learn. This is just a very 'standard' ratio.



Considering the banging going on next door at the wee small hours right now I might want to make a racket on the piano for 2 hours! ha



Quote:
I am not familiar with that online course. However, anyone who says "I can't read music because I'm not adept at it and am better with my ear" is full of it. Sorry, but it is true. Anyone can learn to read music and it really is not that difficult. However, it will greatly improve your abilities. Timing is more a factor of your internal rhythm than dyscalculia (my son actually has this and dyslexia - I know it shouldn't affect your ability to count for music). If numbers do confuse you, use words instead.



I think maybe there is a more positive approach or belief in music teachers over the Atlantic- what I have been told here is that adults are in general poor music learners than children and youths, that not everyone has musical ability, some folks will always struggle with sight reading etc. One teacher told me he can tell in a few minutes of meeting a new student (especially an adult) if they have ability or not. He also said adults tend to be unable to count! bah
I always lose my place when sight reading and usually play music I already know cos when I play something I don't (when I had a teacher) I always got the timing and beat values totally wrong. I still don't understand them- beats..I mean how do you know how long a beat is..one second..two..three??..never could understand that.
I know a few people who play instruments by ear including piano and said they just couldn't learn reading music ( tried and tried) but play really well- some listen to music then play it by ear and make their own arrangements of it. I think perhaps the two are different skills?

Quote:
That doesn't mean you shouldn't improvise however. You definitely should. It will help you in many ways. Learning to read notes doesn't stop this. You also need to learn chords, yes, but the reality of it is more theory + keyboard topography. You want to know the geography of the keyboard perfectly and 'see' the chords and scales and intervals and much more. This takes time. Just keep at it smile



I do keep on with sight reading but it is so stilted and clusmy, but when I play my own stuff it feels and is a totally different experience- it is creative, flowing and feels freer.
_________________________
https://edwardianpiano.wordpress.com/

Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy.
Ludwig van Beethoven.

Top
#1944802 - 08/18/12 12:30 AM Re: Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, third movement [Re: KeemaNan]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5444
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: KeemaNan
I've always thought of this piece as belonging to the super-difficult, virtuoso repertoire. It sounds fiendishly difficult, and incredibly impressive. I've often seen it cited here as a piece that people dream of being able to play one day. I well remember a few years ago, browsing the sheet music in my favourite music shop when somebody trying out a piano hammered out a flawless, barnstorming, performance of it that left me absolutely stunned (and with a severely reduced appetite for the early-intermediate fare I was browsing in the search for something new to play).

Back in the same shop today, I picked up the latest edition of Pianist, and noticed that this movement is included in the score section. I was almost as stunned as I was on that day years ago to see that the piece is marked 'Intermediate/Advanced' (NOT 'Advanced') ! I quote from the comments at the top of
the score - "Don't be put off by the presto tempo... if you practice it carefully, building up the tempo ever so slowly, you will reach a lively tempo in no time.".

Could this really be an 'Intermediate/Advanced' piece, and hence accessible to ordinary mortals in general and Adult Beginners in particular ? I'd love to read any thoughts on this, especially if you've had a go at playing it.



Hello there. I created quite a stir when I first joined this forum 7 years ago in another thread of similar question. In it, I believe I suggested that it was possible to learn this piece within a few days. I stand by that statement then as I do now (and at the time, was asked to prove it, which I did).

Many pieces sound extremely daunting, but in practice, are not so nasty as they sound. This movement, I believe, belongs in that category. There is one major technique to the entire piece (arpeggiated chords). It repeats throughout the piece, and once it is learned, there are few other difficulties to master provided the person attempting it has a good foundation to begin with.

That said, I would not approach this piece as a complete novice. It's fun, yes. But it's also a waste of time (which I did not understand until I was in my twenties). Don't spend six months trying to learn the notes and technique for the piece. Learn pieces you can get into your fingers in a week or two, build your technique and repertoire, and when it's the right time to touch the piece, pull it back out. (Spending six months on musicality, interpretation, and nuance is another thing entirely--I would argue one should never stop doing this even once they "know" a piece. Just don't spend that much time on learning the notes themselves.. not for this level piece.)
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

Top
#1945169 - 08/18/12 06:49 PM Re: Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, third movement [Re: KeemaNan]
TheCorecase Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 9
I just saw this post, I didn't read any of the previous replies -- I don't where the conversations were headed, but I'd like to add my own opinion here. grin

Moonlight Sonata's Third Movement is definitely a difficult and impressive piece; however, the reason why it's ranked intermediate/advanced is because it does not have extreme technicalities i.e trills, leaps, etc.. It is mostly composed of large chords, arpeggios, and it has a key change (which is probably the most annoying part to learn in this piece).

If you'd like to hear what an advanced/professional level piece is like, check these out:

Liszt, La Campanella: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD6xMyuZls0

Liszt, Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H99FM6S8rU

Chopin, Heroic Polonaise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW0Y3M4EJ4M

These are just a few examples. smile
However, Moonlight Sonata 3rd Mov, is a beautiful and quite difficult piece, as well.

Top
#1945688 - 08/19/12 06:17 PM Re: Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, third movement [Re: KeemaNan]
EdwardianPiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/29/11
Posts: 788
Loc: Rainy England
The Heroic Polonaise= awesome!
_________________________
https://edwardianpiano.wordpress.com/

Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy.
Ludwig van Beethoven.

Top
#1946081 - 08/20/12 11:46 AM Re: Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, third movement [Re: KeemaNan]
Bentissimo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/17/12
Posts: 31
Loc: Illinois, USA
I've been playing for all of 9 months, so I might get disregarded here. I can't believe the negativity with respect to saying people will not be able to reach such and such a level or play this piece because they started playing piano at age X. Who says?? I believe you can play any piece you want if you are willing to take the time to learn it.

When I come across a difficult piece, I think to myself, "I wonder when I will be able to play something like that or with that degree of expression and skill." I don't think to myself, "well shucks, I'm old and guess I'll never be able to play that." How depressing! Have a little faith and don't limit yourself.

Feel free to explain to me why I'm a starry-eyed newbie pianist who doesn't understand the technical reasons behind all this talk of limits. I don't care smile I'm going to keep playing and enjoy the ride. I don't see any limit to where any of us can go if we want it.
_________________________
"Today you are the perfect age to chase your dream." - Jon Acuff

Top
#1946368 - 08/20/12 07:04 PM Re: Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, third movement [Re: Bentissimo]
EdwardianPiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/29/11
Posts: 788
Loc: Rainy England
Quote:
I've been playing for all of 9 months, so I might get disregarded here. I can't believe the negativity with respect to saying people will not be able to reach such and such a level or play this piece because they started playing piano at age X. Who says?? I believe you can play any piece you want if you are willing to take the time to learn it.



Bravo! I agree- self belief will take one far. However, piano teachers and certain articles I have read ( no one on this wonderful forum I hasten to add)have told me adults are slower learners and children faster and that adults have clumsy hands in general. In my case clumsy hands seems to be true. Today I was out in town and they had a piano in the street free to play. A young man in his late 20s (who was grade 8) was playing. He played Moonlight for me and people clapped him after. A boy who looked to be about 12 came along- a lovely sweet lad who has an electronic piano. He sat and played Adele's "Someone Like You" perfectly with very nimble hands and correct fingering- all self taught- fingering and learnt by ear! He has just started having theory and sight reading lessons. He is already way beyond me. I don't know if it is my age or maybe he plays more reguarly than I do.



Quote:
When I come across a difficult piece, I think to myself, "I wonder when I will be able to play something like that or with that degree of expression and skill." I don't think to myself, "well shucks, I'm old and guess I'll never be able to play that." How depressing! Have a little faith and don't limit yourself.


Again, I admire your belief in yourself. I do tend to think I will never be able to do that, thinking I must be "realistic" as I middle aged with small stubby clumsy hands- heck I still even type with two fingers!
The index ones LOL. I do excel at cooking soup though... grin


Quote:
Feel free to explain to me why I'm a starry-eyed newbie pianist who doesn't understand the technical reasons behind all this talk of limits. I don't care smile I'm going to keep playing and enjoy the ride. I don't see any limit to where any of us can go if we want it.



Go you! What are you learning at the moment?
_________________________
https://edwardianpiano.wordpress.com/

Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy.
Ludwig van Beethoven.

Top
#1946624 - 08/21/12 10:56 AM Re: Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, third movement [Re: KeemaNan]
sandalholme Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 804
Loc: Dorset, UK
Whilst it is true in general that young people learn new skills more quickly than older people, clearly some older people will learn more quickly than some older people. It varies. Moreover, even if an older individual will learn more slowly than when s/he was younger, hey, who knows whether that person was originally a phenomenally fast learner?

My belief is that motivation and hard work takes people a long, long way. At the same time we all have our technical strengths and weaknesses. We all have some physical limitations. If we are, or become, wise, we will develop our repertoire as widely/deeply as we wish up to those limits. If we become convinced that there is a brick wall in some respect that try as we might we cannot break down, then the wise course is to quietly let go of pieces that contain that brick wall and enjoy all that music we can enjoy playing. But it should take a long time for that brick wall to convince us it's not going away.

I am not an adult beginner: I have been learning/playing the piano for 63 years. There are pieces I have no intention of even trying, but there are pieces, now, that I am progressing which a few years' ago I would have thought impossible for me. If we want to, we can learn new works at any age, we can explore composers new to us, so long as we remember how we are enjoying the journey, rather than dwelling on what we cannot yet do.

Not re the piano, but my wife - a similar age to me - started playing the 'cello about 4 years' ago. Later this year we and a violinist friend will perform a Haydn piano trio in front of friends. None of us is exceptional. It may not be very good on the night, who knows, but we have enjoyed learning and playing it together.

Top
#1947101 - 08/22/12 08:34 AM Re: Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, third movement [Re: sandalholme]
EdwardianPiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/29/11
Posts: 788
Loc: Rainy England
I bet you are all good and your friends will love the evening. yippie
_________________________
https://edwardianpiano.wordpress.com/

Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy.
Ludwig van Beethoven.

Top
#1947219 - 08/22/12 12:59 PM Re: Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, third movement [Re: EdwardianPiano]
sandalholme Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/31/09
Posts: 804
Loc: Dorset, UK
Many thanks! grin

Top
#1947338 - 08/22/12 04:29 PM Re: Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, third movement [Re: EdwardianPiano]
Bentissimo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/17/12
Posts: 31
Loc: Illinois, USA
Originally Posted By: EdwardianPiano

I do tend to think I will never be able to do that, thinking I must be "realistic" as I middle aged with small stubby clumsy hands- heck I still even type with two fingers!


Funny you should mention the typing with two fingers thing. I have a friend who does the same thing but has incredible dexterity when it comes to painting miniature figures. He can paint super thin, controlled lines and create some really impressive effects, but put him at a computer and he looks like an angry monkey. I guess what I'm saying is that you can be dexterous at an activity regardless of typing technique. And personally I don't feel like my piano playing or typing has influenced the either all that much!

Quote:
Go you! What are you learning at the moment?


Well, nothing as impressive as I probably made myself sound, haha. My teacher has me working through a method book (Belwin book 5) and we just finished getting Moonlight Sonata 2nd movement up to a reasonable tempo and getting the connections to happen. Prior to that, it was the 1st movement (which is still far from perfect). I asked my teacher about starting the 3rd movement and he advised that we should wait a bit until I get some better abilities in terms of raw speed. So last week we started on a David Nevue (While the Trees Sleep).

Again, nothing all that impressive! And I probably came across pretty arrogant in my previous comment. I just think that human beings are truly incredible and usually only limited by our own resignations, not so much our age.
_________________________
"Today you are the perfect age to chase your dream." - Jon Acuff

Top
#1947401 - 08/22/12 06:32 PM Re: Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, third movement [Re: Bentissimo]
EdwardianPiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/29/11
Posts: 788
Loc: Rainy England


Quote:
Funny you should mention the typing with two fingers thing. I have a friend who does the same thing but has incredible dexterity when it comes to painting miniature figures. He can paint super thin, controlled lines and create some really impressive effects, but put him at a computer and he looks like an angry monkey. I guess what I'm saying is that you can be dexterous at an activity regardless of typing technique. And personally I don't feel like my piano playing or typing has influenced the either all that much!




Your friend sounds very artistic. Funny, I type with just the two fingers yet managed a university dissertation typing like that and write some fiction. But creating music for me might be different- who knows! I can play relatively fast arpeggios but my fingers are definitely not in the right positions.



Quote:
Well, nothing as impressive as I probably made myself sound, haha. My teacher has me working through a method book (Belwin book 5) and we just finished getting Moonlight Sonata 2nd movement up to a reasonable tempo and getting the connections to happen. Prior to that, it was the 1st movement (which is still far from perfect). I asked my teacher about starting the 3rd movement and he advised that we should wait a bit until I get some better abilities in terms of raw speed. So last week we started on a David Nevue (While the Trees Sleep).



That is impressive for 8 months' learning.

Quote:
Again, nothing all that impressive! And I probably came across pretty arrogant in my previous comment. I just think that human beings are truly incredible and usually only limited by our own resignations, not so much our age.


No you didn't- you come across as dedicated and confident! smile
_________________________
https://edwardianpiano.wordpress.com/

Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy.
Ludwig van Beethoven.

Top
#2209587 - 01/06/14 05:34 PM Re: Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, third movement [Re: KeemaNan]
RiskEngineer Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/27/13
Posts: 2
Loc: Missouri
There is a great YouTube video by a guy who's channel is called "Bach Scholar." He plays the third movement at five different tempos. By playing it very slowly, he showed me how to make sense of it. Now it just seems hard and attainable instead of impossible and mysterious.

Top
#2209594 - 01/06/14 05:41 PM Re: Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, third movement [Re: KeemaNan]
Michael D Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/04/14
Posts: 29
Loc: Seattle, WA
Regarding the first movement, which took me about 6 months (with an almost year break between months 3 and 4) to get to the point where I can play the notes with an occasional glance at the score to remind myself, and where I can get some of the dynamics correct, what is the consensus on the sustain pedal?

After some experimentation, what I prefer is holding the pedal until striking the first note of the next measure and then releasing/re-applying it. At least to my ear, that gives me a steady continuous sound throughout. I've heard some advocate for an almost constant use of the pedal, some argue for half-sustain, etc.

Top
#2209753 - 01/06/14 08:11 PM Re: Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, third movement [Re: Michael D]
RiskEngineer Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/27/13
Posts: 2
Loc: Missouri
According to Chang ( best book I've read about piano technique) the pedal was to be held throughout. However, pianos have gotten better and better. On a Steinway, for instance, holding the pedal down continuously turns the piece to mush. I agree with your interpretation about the release and repeat with each measure, except in a few select places, the locations of which escape me right now.

Top
#2300245 - 07/09/14 12:58 PM Re: Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, third movement [Re: KeemaNan]
William Schryver Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/01/14
Posts: 15
Originally Posted By: KeemaNan
I've always thought of this piece as belonging to the super-difficult, virtuoso repertoire. It sounds fiendishly difficult, and incredibly impressive. I've often seen it cited here as a piece that people dream of being able to play one day. I well remember a few years ago, browsing the sheet music in my favourite music shop when somebody trying out a piano hammered out a flawless, barnstorming, performance of it that left me absolutely stunned (and with a severely reduced appetite for the early-intermediate fare I was browsing in the search for something new to play).

Back in the same shop today, I picked up the latest edition of Pianist, and noticed that this movement is included in the score section. I was almost as stunned as I was on that day years ago to see that the piece is marked 'Intermediate/Advanced' (NOT 'Advanced') ! I quote from the comments at the top of
the score - "Don't be put off by the presto tempo... if you practice it carefully, building up the tempo ever so slowly, you will reach a lively tempo in no time.".

Could this really be an 'Intermediate/Advanced' piece, and hence accessible to ordinary mortals in general and Adult Beginners in particular ? I'd love to read any thoughts on this, especially if you've had a go at playing it.


I am a new poster here on the Piano World forums, and I happened on this old thread as a result of a search using the terms "beethoven moonlight 3rd". And, after reading through the thread, I thought I would add my own comment.

First of all, my musical background: I am a completely self-taught musician; almost 54-years-old, but have tinkered on the piano for probably about 35 years or so, without (until very lately) making a concerted effort to really play well. That said, I have steadily acquired a fairly good knowledge of music theory, and have been composing my own works for many years.

As for Beethoven's so-called "Moonlight Sonata" (a name given to the piece not by Beethoven, but by someone else writing about the piece many years after Beethoven's death), I have always been familiar with the 1st movement, which probably most people have heard without even knowing its origins. I have recently fallen in love with the entire sonata. Well, that's not entirely true. I really, really like the 1st and 3rd movements. The 2nd movement is ... well, let's just say that I can take it or leave it, and will probably only learn it in the end in order to be able to say I can play the entire piece -- all three movements.

Anyway, I started learning to play the 1st movement the 1st of May of this year. I had it memorized within a week, but it took the better part of the month to get to the point where I felt I was really achieving a decent degree of expression. I am still playing it through at least once or twice a day as I have moved on to the 3rd movement, which I have been working on for about a month now.

Is the 3rd movement difficult/advanced? I would say that, in terms of "learning the notes," it is not super difficult. It takes the basic chords/progressions from the 1st movement and turns them into fast arpeggios, extended scale runs, and lots of octaves. Plus, once you learn it to the "repeat", you've essentially learned over 3/4 of the piece, since that theme (or parts of it) is repeated not just once, but no fewer than seven times during the course of the movement (although there is a key change in the middle of the piece -- everything moves up a 4th).

In any event, I am making good progress, but I can foresee that it will require several more months of work before I will feel that I have truly "mastered" the piece. Why so long? Because, in my opinion, there is a big difference between learning how to just play the notes of this piece and really learning how to perform it the way it ought to sound.

In other words (and I don't intend to disparage any individual with the following comparison), there is, in my judgment, a HUGE difference between learning to play the piece this well:

Beethoven Piano Sonata #14 - 3rd Movement - Sample 1

And learning to play the piece this well:

Beethoven Piano Sonata #14 - 3rd Movement - Sample 2

I also noted that someone linked above to Valentina Lisitsa's performance of the piece. I love to watch her play it, and have done so many, many times -- just because I so much enjoy watching the fingers of her left hand dancing on the keys. Even so, in my opinion, she plays the thing too fast. It's impressive, in a way. But it also almost comes across as a parody at times (although not as badly as does Glenn Gould's ridiculous rendition of it).

Anyway, my bottom line conclusion: the 3rd movement can be learned by any truly dedicated pianist. That said, I consider it to be one of those pieces whose performance really separates the "technically accomplished" from the "artist". No doubt that is why it has been in the repertoire of so many of the world's greatest pianists over the course of the 200+ years since Beethoven composed it. It is very challenging to master it. And, in my opinion, after listening to many dozens of unique performances of it over the course of the past several weeks, very few people ever really have mastered it, including many very notable concert pianists, living and dead.


Edited by William Schryver (07/09/14 01:00 PM)

Top
#2300319 - 07/09/14 03:54 PM Re: Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, third movement [Re: KeemaNan]
Art_Vandelay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/13/14
Posts: 127
Loc: Stillwater, OK
@William: the tempo is Presto Agitato, or "very fast and agitated." Beethoven wanted it to be played ridiculously fast, as Valentina does.
_________________________
"If peeing your pants is cool, consider me Miles Davis."

"If life gives you lemonade, make lemons. Life'll be all like whaaaaaat?" - Phil Dunphy

Top
#2300348 - 07/09/14 04:54 PM Re: Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, third movement [Re: KeemaNan]
Ataru074 Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 461
Loc: Houston, TX
+1 on the presto agitato...
I like Perahia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=352qLWqKN-U
or Goode http://youtu.be/hL0fTewN4S4?t=7m55s

I'm not going to enter in the discussion too deeply but it's, as matter of fact, much easier that what it sound like especially if somebody has been trained in a traditional manner doing plenty of scales and arpeggios... and falls very, very very nicely under the fingers.
_________________________
working on:
Chopin: Op 48 #2
Mozart: Kv333
Beethoven: Op 26
Bach: French Suite G major, English Suite G minor.
Clementi: Gradus ad Parnassum #2, 9, 12

Top
#2300415 - 07/09/14 08:23 PM Re: Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, third movement [Re: William Schryver]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5444
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: William Schryver
Originally Posted By: KeemaNan
I've always thought of this piece as belonging to the super-difficult, virtuoso repertoire. It sounds fiendishly difficult, and incredibly impressive. I've often seen it cited here as a piece that people dream of being able to play one day. I well remember a few years ago, browsing the sheet music in my favourite music shop when somebody trying out a piano hammered out a flawless, barnstorming, performance of it that left me absolutely stunned (and with a severely reduced appetite for the early-intermediate fare I was browsing in the search for something new to play).

Back in the same shop today, I picked up the latest edition of Pianist, and noticed that this movement is included in the score section. I was almost as stunned as I was on that day years ago to see that the piece is marked 'Intermediate/Advanced' (NOT 'Advanced') ! I quote from the comments at the top of
the score - "Don't be put off by the presto tempo... if you practice it carefully, building up the tempo ever so slowly, you will reach a lively tempo in no time.".

Could this really be an 'Intermediate/Advanced' piece, and hence accessible to ordinary mortals in general and Adult Beginners in particular ? I'd love to read any thoughts on this, especially if you've had a go at playing it.


I am a new poster here on the Piano World forums, and I happened on this old thread as a result of a search using the terms "beethoven moonlight 3rd". And, after reading through the thread, I thought I would add my own comment.

First of all, my musical background: I am a completely self-taught musician; almost 54-years-old, but have tinkered on the piano for probably about 35 years or so, without (until very lately) making a concerted effort to really play well. That said, I have steadily acquired a fairly good knowledge of music theory, and have been composing my own works for many years.

As for Beethoven's so-called "Moonlight Sonata" (a name given to the piece not by Beethoven, but by someone else writing about the piece many years after Beethoven's death), I have always been familiar with the 1st movement, which probably most people have heard without even knowing its origins. I have recently fallen in love with the entire sonata. Well, that's not entirely true. I really, really like the 1st and 3rd movements. The 2nd movement is ... well, let's just say that I can take it or leave it, and will probably only learn it in the end in order to be able to say I can play the entire piece -- all three movements.

Anyway, I started learning to play the 1st movement the 1st of May of this year. I had it memorized within a week, but it took the better part of the month to get to the point where I felt I was really achieving a decent degree of expression. I am still playing it through at least once or twice a day as I have moved on to the 3rd movement, which I have been working on for about a month now.

Is the 3rd movement difficult/advanced? I would say that, in terms of "learning the notes," it is not super difficult. It takes the basic chords/progressions from the 1st movement and turns them into fast arpeggios, extended scale runs, and lots of octaves. Plus, once you learn it to the "repeat", you've essentially learned over 3/4 of the piece, since that theme (or parts of it) is repeated not just once, but no fewer than seven times during the course of the movement (although there is a key change in the middle of the piece -- everything moves up a 4th).

In any event, I am making good progress, but I can foresee that it will require several more months of work before I will feel that I have truly "mastered" the piece. Why so long? Because, in my opinion, there is a big difference between learning how to just play the notes of this piece and really learning how to perform it the way it ought to sound.

In other words (and I don't intend to disparage any individual with the following comparison), there is, in my judgment, a HUGE difference between learning to play the piece this well:

Beethoven Piano Sonata #14 - 3rd Movement - Sample 1

And learning to play the piece this well:

Beethoven Piano Sonata #14 - 3rd Movement - Sample 2

I also noted that someone linked above to Valentina Lisitsa's performance of the piece. I love to watch her play it, and have done so many, many times -- just because I so much enjoy watching the fingers of her left hand dancing on the keys. Even so, in my opinion, she plays the thing too fast. It's impressive, in a way. But it also almost comes across as a parody at times (although not as badly as does Glenn Gould's ridiculous rendition of it).

Anyway, my bottom line conclusion: the 3rd movement can be learned by any truly dedicated pianist. That said, I consider it to be one of those pieces whose performance really separates the "technically accomplished" from the "artist". No doubt that is why it has been in the repertoire of so many of the world's greatest pianists over the course of the 200+ years since Beethoven composed it. It is very challenging to master it. And, in my opinion, after listening to many dozens of unique performances of it over the course of the past several weeks, very few people ever really have mastered it, including many very notable concert pianists, living and dead.

You probably mean well, but let's watch the high-brow. Cory Hall is a good pianist. As for Andre Watts, I think everyone will agree he is world-class. That said, I actually don't like his playing of the Moonlight. Never have.

Will you post a recording when you've learned it? I've heard hundreds, if not thousands of renditions of the piece, and performed it myself at one time, and I would like to have a listen.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

Top
#2300654 - 07/10/14 10:04 AM Re: Beethoven Moonlight Sonata, third movement [Re: Art_Vandelay]
William Schryver Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/01/14
Posts: 15
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
@William: the tempo is Presto Agitato, or "very fast and agitated." Beethoven wanted it to be played ridiculously fast, as Valentina does.

I should probably have qualified my statement more than I did.

I think Valentina plays it just a bit too fast. The Andre Watts version I posted is only (iirc) about 15 seconds longer than Valentina's. For me, that makes a big difference.

And don't get me wrong, I think Lisista's version is stunning. Just a bit too fast, in my estimation.

Top
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2

Moderator:  BB Player, casinitaly 
What's Hot!!
The February 2015 Issue of our Free Piano News Newsletter is out now! FREE Piano Newsletter
--------------------
The best thing I've learned on Piano World....
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
(ad) Jazz Piano Online
Jazz Piano Online Lessons
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
the best Pianos for Romantic Music
by wjc
03/04/15 05:33 PM
Restore or buy new? Disappointing rebuild...
by Kins
03/04/15 04:13 PM
Can you mimic a soundboard effect on Kawai CA65?
by Sam Sam Sam
03/04/15 03:43 PM
Franck's prelude, choral and fugue
by Svenno
03/04/15 03:20 PM
Glenn Gould on Richard Strauss
by pianoman9
03/04/15 01:02 PM
Forum Stats
78,392 Registered Members
43 Forums
162,073 Topics
2,379,722 Posts

Most users ever online: 15,252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2015 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission