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#1942068 - 08/13/12 04:31 PM RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance
Ken Elias Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/13/10
Posts: 2
Loc: California
Hi,all:
I'm in quite a quandary. Forgive the length of my story, which I think is important to tell before asking a few questions...

After twenty years of struggling with a Samick SG-172, during which in the past five years I replaced the hammers, did a bunch of regulation, and added a TouchRail to lighten the touch, I find that after playing some really good pianos lately I'm ready to move on. I don't regret all the effort I put into it, as I learned a lot. And now I tune and regulate pianos for a local summer music camp on a volunteer basis. I've gotten good feedback on my work from the pianists, so I conclude that while I'm not a certified tech, my skills are getting good.

About two years ago I played a Kawai RX-2 at Benjamin Kim's in Garden Grove, CA. It was exquisite.. He offered me an excellent deal, thousands less than I saw the same Piano in San Diego at a dealer there. Still, it was a lot of money to me, and I just wasn't able to do it. I was truly sad leaving his fine establishment.

Now I've got the fever again. And I'm looking on eBay for Kawai RX-2s.. I find a couple of them. I'm looking at one that is about ten years old, the price is $9,000. It seems fantastic. But then I come to find out that it doesn't have the Millenium III action, which is what I was looking for. The dealer says that touch is all done during the regulation. But my experience, such as it is, tells me that there are limits to what regulation can do for touch weight. And I've even seen comments on this forum that the Kawais sometimes have a heavy touch. So, I'm concerned I will a get a piano that's not right for me.

The dealer would prefer to not use the eBay system, and wants me to send a full pre-payment before he ships the piano. I'm really nervous about that, and after seeing on this forum an idea from someone about using escrow.com, I think, well there's a solution that would address my concern. But the dealer says he doesn't want to bother with that.
Frankly, he seems like a very reputable person, very good-hearted. Aren't the scams mostly craigslist type things, not real live dealers? Perhaps this is nothing to be concerned about.

Many folks on here suggest that you should always play the instrument you intend to buy. It's hard to do that from the Central Valley of California, where pianos are few and far between.

Well, thanks for listening to my story, and I appreciate any suggestions about how to proceed.

Sincerely,
Ken Elias
Three Rivers, CA

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#1942074 - 08/13/12 04:40 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
If a dealer lists on eBay and then tries to back out and sell the piano privately, he has violated the TOS at eBay. That is dishonest and I wouldn't trust this dealer. I also question why any dealer who wants to sell a piano wouldn't want to "bother."

From what you wrote, the "he seems like a very reputable person" is not how he is presenting himself.

Visit some real-live, respected dealers and you will then know what you are getting.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1942132 - 08/13/12 06:05 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
Steve Cohen Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10452
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
If you'll tell us the dealer's name the pros here can PM you about the dealer's reputation.

Feel free to Pm me. I know or know of a good percentage of piano dealer in North America.


Edited by Steve Cohen (08/13/12 06:06 PM)
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#1942152 - 08/13/12 06:51 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
BoseEric Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 731
Loc: Fairfield County, CT
A 4 hour drive each way is not so far for peace of mind.
_________________________
RPT. In the business: Feurich pianos, Neupert harpsichords, Hidrau benches, piano technician

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#1942361 - 08/14/12 03:58 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
allthumbs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 115
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Originally Posted By: Ken Elias
Hi,all:
The dealer would prefer to not use the eBay system, and wants me to send a full pre-payment before he ships the piano. I'm really nervous about that, and after seeing on this forum an idea from someone about using escrow.com, I think, well there's a solution that would address my concern. But the dealer says he doesn't want to bother with that.
Frankly, he seems like a very reputable person, very good-hearted. Aren't the scams mostly craigslist type things, not real live dealers? Perhaps this is nothing to be concerned about.

>
>
>

Well, thanks for listening to my story, and I appreciate any suggestions about how to proceed.

Sincerely,
Ken Elias
Three Rivers, CA


Stay away froma transaction like that! You need an independent third party to handle any money/purchase item exchange in order to protect your investment.

Anyone who is reputable would not have a problem using an escrow service.

Regards,

allthumbs
_________________________
Sauter Delta (185cm) polished ebony 'Lucy'
Serial # 118 562

Single Malts Forever!

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#1942367 - 08/14/12 04:13 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2323
Loc: UK
Irrespective of the nature of the transaction, I think it's a mistake to spend that sort of money on a piano without trying it first. One RX2 is not the same as another RX2. This applies to all.

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#1942423 - 08/14/12 08:02 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8412
Loc: Georgia, USA
Back when I was piano shopping, I too considered purchasing long-distance, without actually seeing or playing the piano in person. When your budget only allows for pre-owned, and there are no pre-owned pianos available locally, this is an option.

The RX2 is a popular model. I suppose if you can get the piano at a good price, and you end up not liking the tone or touch, you could possibly re-sell it and recoup your investment. (However, pianos are much harder to sell than they are to buy smile )

As far as trusting the dealer enough to send them thousands of dollars for a piano you haven’t seen, there are risks involved. I’d PM Steve Cohen with the name of the dealer and see what he has to say. He usually charges for his advice and when you can get it for free, that’s a good deal!

Good luck, and keep us informed.

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1942459 - 08/14/12 09:51 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7139
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Ken Elias
Hi,all:


The dealer would prefer to not use the eBay system, and wants me to send a full pre-payment before he ships the piano. I'm really nervous about that, and after seeing on this forum an idea from someone about using escrow.com, I think, well there's a solution that would address my concern. But the dealer says he doesn't want to bother with that.
Frankly, he seems like a very reputable person, very good-hearted. Aren't the scams mostly craigslist type things, not real live dealers? Perhaps this is nothing to be concerned about.



Ken,

Many reputable piano retailers in CA use eBay to place listings, but prefer to complete any transaction generated outside eBay. There's an obvious reason. EBay listings provide inexpensive exposure because listing fees are cheap. Selling fees, on the other hand, can take quite a chunk of the proceeds. EBay is aware of the practice. It's common with a lot of expensive merchandise advertised on eBay, but eBay likes listings and listing fees.

It would be a mistake to conclude that this retailer is somehow dishonest based on his preference for not completing the transaction through eBay. However, the seller's solution of you paying in full up front does not protect your interests even if in his honest estimation the piano is in A-1 condition. That's a judgment you really need to make for yourself, especially after living 20 years with a piano that came up short.

The best solution is the one already suggested by BoseEric. After twenty years of waiting, you should not let a four-hour drive be na obstacle to complete satisfaction.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1942468 - 08/14/12 10:12 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
"...I've even seen comments on this forum that the Kawais sometimes have a heavy touch. So, I'm concerned I will a get a piano that's not right for me..."

I don't doubt that some people think that. If you're talking about an MIII action, it is far less likely. I would describe my RX as having a medium touch, which I find nicely controllable, and which is just right for me, as I dislike either a very light touch or a very heavy one (and an uneven one worst of all). There are a number of regulation issues which can enter into whether an action is sluggish, or too heavy (and you're right, that only so much can be done--- or reasonably done--- if a piano has a touch that is much too heavy; you are better off getting a piano whose touch and tone you like in the first place).

But even for good pianos, when we're speaking of used instruments, condition is everything. If you read through some of the back numbers on this site about pianos with problems that people are selling, it's enough to give you a permanent wave. So I would advise you, do not buy a piano long-distance based on the name alone. You must audition it and examine it in person to know if it is right for you, and in no case would I buy a used piano which has not been inspected for condition by a qualified technician, independent of the seller and paid for by you alone.

It is customary, though not done in every case, to place a deposit on an instrument and pay the balance in full on delivery. I have no opinion about the seller you mentioned; some will not let a piano out the door without full payment. But hey, if you liked the deal at Kim's, and the treatment you received there, why not give them a chance at the business this time? I don't know them personally, but they are well-regarded; I have read quite a few posts from customers of theirs who said good things about them, and none who have complained.

No one can blame you for shopping for the best you can find within your means--- I think it is admirable. I don't necessarily think that "what some people say" is a good guide, though. I would be a lot more confident when we hear what you say, once you've checked it out for yourself.

If there were only a Carfax for used pianos! Maybe in some more enlightened day and time.

"It was in a fire, so we're selling it." "It was in our beach house, so we're selling it." "By the pool..." "In a bar..." "Pound it though we might, it just wasn't loud enough for our church..." "Now that the hurricane flooded the vacation house..." "The movers dropped it off the truck and we returned it..." "Once the exterminator left, we decided to just sell the nasty thing..." "It has a noise that no tuner can fix..." "I took Gyro's advice, and now I realize it was a BAD mistake, so I'm selling..."
_________________________
Clef


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#1942508 - 08/14/12 11:39 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
Elkayem Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/12
Posts: 159
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
If the eBay listing says the purchase is protected by the eBay buyer protection program, but the transaction is carried outside eBay and ends up not getting that advertised coverage, is that not dishonest? Seems a little sketchy to me.
_________________________
Schimmel 130T

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#1942605 - 08/14/12 02:33 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Elkayem]
jawhitti Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/12
Posts: 235
I had a VERY BAD experience this way with (of all things) a digital keyboard earlier this year. I wanted to try a Nord Stage 2 and ordered one from an ebay seller. I didn't notice that the shipping address ebay had on file was an old one so I called to change it. Seller said sure - cancelled the ebay sale, ran a second transaction.

As it happened I really didn't like the Nord. He gave me an RMA so I sent it back two days later and that's where my troubles begain. I ultimately had to get my credit-card company involved and quite honestly I'm still not sure it's 100% resolved.

For something like a piano I think eBay is a pretty poor way to buy, particularly for a mass-produced instrument like the RX-2. Take the trip. Oh and move out of the sticks! smile

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#1942614 - 08/14/12 03:01 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
Nailgun Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 7
Ken, I went to Kim's last sat and was shocked at how nice they are and they made me a deal I could not pass up. The RX2 is being worked on right now so it's ready to deliver. I saw a very nice used RX2 on the floor. The price seemed like a deal to me.
My girl played it, I will ask her about the touch and post what she thinks. She like them with a moderate touch.

Phone call: She said it had a moderate touch but she thought the new one felt better...
Take a drive, well worth the trip.
Good luck.


Edited by Nailgun (08/14/12 03:10 PM)
_________________________
Gibson LP, Lyle w465, Ovation,
Suzuki Dig.
Kawai RX2 Blak

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#1942700 - 08/14/12 05:35 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Nailgun]
Annitenth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 456
Loc: Texas
I first saw my piano on eBay. After contacting the agent, I went to try out the piano, had it inspected by a technician, and the deal was concluded outside of eBay.
_________________________
Anne
Bsendorfer 225
Technics PCM Digital Ensemble PR307

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#1942711 - 08/14/12 06:02 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
jawhitti Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/12
Posts: 235
Well now I understand why I see so many pianos for sale on eBay but almost no successfully completed auctions.

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#1942737 - 08/14/12 06:45 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
PianoWorksATL Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2691
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Most dealers do not find ebay viable for pianos. Mainstream, affordable pianos like an RX-2 can easily be sold locally or regionally. If it is such a good deal from a dealer, why wouldn't someone local snatch it up?

Rare or expensive used pianos or lesser known brands often benefit from wider advertising and exposure online. I find our effective limit on a good quality mainstream piano is about 300 miles. I know of some dealers who can make such sales nationwide, but many times, I think they are filling gaps between major markets that the local dealers are missing. For rare, high end, there is almost no limit on distance - which makes sense.
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bsendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

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#1942752 - 08/14/12 07:13 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: PianoWorksATL]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7139
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
Most dealers do not find ebay viable for pianos. Mainstream, affordable pianos like an RX-2 can easily be sold locally or regionally.


Hi Sam,

What do you mean exactly by 'viable' -- completing a transaction through the eBay channel or getting greater exposure for their inventory than what they'd get from their own web site?

I've seen RX and Yamaha C used pianos on many SoCal retailer eBay listings (including some from the aforementioned and recommended Kawai dealer). I've also seen cases where a dealer lists and re-lists his entire used inventory.

In terms of local, regional, or national, one of the eBay sorting options for the viewer is to view the pianos in order of distance from his zip code with the exact mileage cited in the listing. It's the only option I've ever used. Personally, I would not want to be tempted by a perilous long-distance purchase.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1942756 - 08/14/12 07:24 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8412
Loc: Georgia, USA
Like Annitenth, I first saw both grand pianos I've owned on eBay... contacted the seller to get info; the auction ended (with no sale) and afterward I went to look at the piano and made the deal.

The first one was only about 40 miles away. The Yamaha C7 was about 150 miles away, and well worth the trip.

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1942763 - 08/14/12 07:32 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Rickster]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
The important thing is that the transaction occured after the auction ended. Then the sale is totally appropriate. I find it unethical for a seller to use marketing through eBay, arrange a sale outside of the auction, and then cancel the auction before the scheduled ending. Just because it is common practice doesn't make it right.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1942768 - 08/14/12 07:39 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
PianoWorksATL Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2691
Loc: Atlanta, GA
That's a good point. ebay takes a big chunk of the transactions completed there that would represent anywhere from half to nearly all of the margin on a used piano. I think your user experience reflects your interest...pianos of a general nature available for you to try. Many people use it to try and comparison shop the whole world to see if they are getting a "good deal." I don't know which way is more searched. With cars, I know the local option is very important.

We explored ebay and after a while, I lost comfort with it based on the listings people might view as comparable as well as the reality that we'd have to take the sales offline to be viable. I've only talked to a couple of dealers that viewed ebay positively for big ticket items like pianos.

I designed our own sight to give more of what I wanted but I realize it doesn't have the same visibility as ebay.
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bsendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

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#1942778 - 08/14/12 08:08 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Sam, I agree, it is how the seller uses eBay. If it draws people to a brick and mortar store to shop, great. That's marketing. If SSN #XXXX is on an eBay auction, it should not be pulled from the auction to avoid the eBay transaction charges.

Here's a hypothetical situation (not directed at Sam, just in general). Joe sees a Yammy, on eBay, with a start price of $3,000 and is now up to $3,350. Joe goes to the store to play the piano to see if he likes it and wants to bid on it. The salesman says "If you buy it right now, I'll sell it to ya for $2,825." Joe asks, "But what about the $3,350 bid?" "Doesn't matter, I'll just cancel the auction." is the reply.

Is that ethical or is it yet another example of the sleezy salesman?
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1942869 - 08/14/12 10:16 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Minnesota Marty]
gnuboi Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/26/10
Posts: 2349
Loc: USA
eBay might have policies regarding cancelling auctions; if a bid is binding, so should the seller's offer.

But if it were Craigslist, then it's all business and nothin' personal!

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#1942971 - 08/15/12 02:07 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: PianoWorksATL]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7139
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
That's a good point. ebay takes a big chunk of the transactions completed there that would represent anywhere from half to nearly all of the margin on a used piano. I think your user experience reflects your interest...pianos of a general nature available for you to try. Many people use it to try and comparison shop the whole world to see if they are getting a "good deal." I don't know which way is more searched. With cars, I know the local option is very important.


Thanks Sam. You have pegged my interest correctly. It's basically to see what's available locally that's out of the ordinary. I recall a local retailer offering a new Estonia 190 with the Faz board on eBay for a flat price of 49k. He attracted interest even here in the piano forum. He did not expect to sell at that price. In this case, overpricing was part of his glamour strategy rather than the typical something-for-nothing tease of an eBay 99 cent auction. As it tuned out, he sold that piano at more than 40% less than the eBay price in a conventional transaction, and I would guess he still made his margin. The bonus??...... he got some people into the store who liked Estonia pianos, and he had other Estonias in stock.

Admittedly though, there are other SoCal shops that would not consider advertising on eBay because they feel it would hurt their image. They don't want to seem like clearance centers desperate for a sale.

Quote:
We explored ebay and after a while, I lost comfort with it based on the listings people might view as comparable as well as the reality that we'd have to take the sales offline to be viable. I've only talked to a couple of dealers that viewed ebay positively for big ticket items like pianos.

I designed our own site to give more of what I wanted but I realize it doesn't have the same visibility as ebay.


When you placed those eBay listings, did you include your business name, location, and telephone number in the listing? Did you go with flat "Buy it now" prices?



Minn Mary,

It's obvious that this sort of transaction does not meet your personal ethical standards. You've posted that twice.

However, there is nothing in the op's description to indicate that this particular piano is a legitimate auction item. The OP quotes a flat price of 9k, not a fluid price with a last bid of 9k. In point of fact, almost no brick and mortar retailer who uses eBay for exposure risks going with the auction format unless he either...

1) sets a high minimum bid which is just about the price he wants for it (thus protecting his margin)

2) sets a low entry bid with a hidden reserve to obscure what he really wants for it (thus teasing the naive bargain-hunter's interest while still protecting his margin)

Despite your personal scruples about what is ethical, the interests of the buyer are best served by seeing and playing the piano. He will sacrifice eBay's money back if not satisfied scheme, but he will have a better understanding of what it is he is about to buy and who it is who it is he is about to buy it from.

The process by which eBay arranges refunds is sticky and takes time. It goes through a dispute resolution process in which both sides agree that eBay's determination will be binding. I don't think that serves the needs of buyers or sellers of expensive merchandise that can be subject to very varied subjective opinions of quality. To me it would seem silly for a prospective buyer to insist on buying through the eBay channel at the cost of buying sight unseen.

Actually, even when an eBay dispute is as simple as non-delivery of the item, getting a transaction refunded through eBay is slow and frustrating. I know. I've been there. In any transaction involving a buyer, a seller, and eBay, I'd be more worried about the buyer or seller being shortchanged, not eBay.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1942987 - 08/15/12 03:13 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Turandot,

The piano was listed on eBay and whether it was a "Buy it Now" or an auction is irrelevant. I am not talking about the rules and agreements concerning transactions through eBay. I am very familiar with eBay and use it all the time. Personally, I would never consider buying a piano through eBay. It is totally different than buying stuff for my model railroad.

What I cautioned, from the very start, is the integrity of the seller, or in this case a piano salesman/dealer.

Originally Posted By: Ken Elias
The dealer would prefer to not use the eBay system, and wants me to send a full pre-payment before he ships the piano. I'm really nervous about that, and after seeing on this forum an idea from someone about using escrow.com, I think, well there's a solution that would address my concern. But the dealer says he doesn't want to bother with that.
Frankly, he seems like a very reputable person, very good-hearted. Aren't the scams mostly craigslist type things, not real live dealers? Perhaps this is nothing to be concerned about.


That is an individual who is willing to disregard the contract agreement with eBay when listing any item for sale. To me it was an immediate red flag. That was my caution to Ken, the OP.

Thank you for your very detailed explanation of how eBay works. I am most often a "buyer" but also have considerable experience as a "seller." I know the ropes.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1943010 - 08/15/12 04:43 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
JPB RX2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/21/08
Posts: 31
Loc: Cambridge, UK
I've got a 1996 RX2 which I absolutely love. It does, though, have a rather heavier action than the new Millenium II action. I like it that way, and find it wonderfully controllable, but do beware that it does feel quite different to the Millenium II. It can be lightened (my tech knows that I like it just the way it is, so does not regulate it to be any lighter) but I still think you'd find its not quite the same as the Millenium II.

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#1943089 - 08/15/12 09:53 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Minnesota Marty]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7139
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
The important thing is that the transaction occured after the auction ended. Then the sale is totally appropriate.


Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty

The piano was listed on eBay and whether it was a "Buy it Now" or an auction is irrelevant.


Appears to be a disconnect here. There's in nothing in the thread to suggest that the seller was cancelling a legitimate offer simply to get a higher price outside the eBay channel. There is nothing to suggest it was an auction item at all.

However, since your advice to the OP is to not buy an eBay piano sight unseen, I guess your ethical question is of minor importance. The advice to see what you're buying before you commit seems to be unanimous and in the OP's best interest.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#1943092 - 08/15/12 10:02 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: turandot]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17746
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Originally Posted By: turandot

Appears to be a disconnect here. There's in nothing in the thread to suggest that the seller was cancelling a legitimate offer simply to get a higher price outside the eBay channel. There is nothing to suggest it was an auction item at all.

However, since your advice to the OP is to not buy an eBay piano sight unseen, I guess your ethical question is of minor importance. The advice to see what you're buying before you commit seems to be unanimous and in the OP's best interest.


I'm not sure I agree with you on this. The OP said: "The dealer would prefer to not use the eBay system, and wants me to send a full pre-payment before he ships the piano." That's a strange way to phrase things if the auction had been concluded or if it were a non-auction item. My take on the matter is that the seller was using eBay to get a wide audience of shoppers for the piano, but did not want to have the transaction proceed through eBay, perhaps because he/she wanted to avoid the hefty cut that eBay takes, or wanted to avoid potential problems in the way that eBay is so heavily slanted in the buyer's favor in terms of complaints/returns.

Either way, it is a red flag, and the OP was right to be nervous.

Of course, imo, that red flag is nothing compared to the *ginormous* red flag of the seller wanting the full purchase price up front. That in and of itself would be enough for me to run in the opposite direction.
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#1943100 - 08/15/12 10:25 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Monica K.]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Thank you Monica.

Originally Posted By: Ken Elias
Now I've got the fever again. And I'm looking on eBay for Kawai RX-2s.. I find a couple of them. I'm looking at one that is about ten years old, the price is $9,000. ...

The dealer would prefer to not use the eBay system, and wants me to send a full pre-payment before he ships the piano. I'm really nervous about that, and after seeing on this forum an idea from someone about using escrow.com, I think, well there's a solution that would address my concern. But the dealer says he doesn't want to bother with that.
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It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1943126 - 08/15/12 11:35 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
Cmajor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/03/11
Posts: 229
Loc: USA
If the dealer is using the Ebay system but wants to cheat them out of their commission he is unethical and will probably cheat you as well. You will have absolutely no recourse since you would be a party to the deception.

Do yourself a huge favor and take a pass on this.

There are many used pianos out there. As long as you're forced to do a long distance deal why don't you contact Rick Jones Pianos. He seems to get a lot of good press on this forum and appears to have a stellar reputation.

http://rickjonespianos.com/homebody.htm

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#1943327 - 08/15/12 05:29 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Monica K.]
turandot Offline
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Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7139
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Monica K.


I'm not sure I agree with you on this.


I'm sure I would not agree with me if what you suggest is what I had posted. My response to the OP was that paying full price up front sight unseen left his interests unprotected and that he should not do it. My advice was quite clear. He has to look out for himself.

However, I cannot get worked up about a dealer listing a piano on eBay and then selling it privately in a store transaction. I know many dealerships that float eBay listings (not risky auctions) for the exposure. The folks that own those businesses are not dishonest. EBay for its part does not prevent retailers from listing their business, its address, and its telephone number in the listing. It also allows vendors to state in the listing that the merchandise might become unavailable if sold through another channel. EBay is interested in a steady revenue stream. Something is better than nothing.

If eBay permits the practice and retailers take advantage of it, that's simply the reality of the marketplace. If someone has her/his private scruples about it, then (s)he can avoid it.

I suppose that a retailer who lists his used inventory on eBay could place little signs on each used piano in the showroom that state "Sorry, this piano may only be purchased by eBay members", but if some retailer were to do that, there would be no reason for him to deal used pianos from a showroom at all.

The bottom line is that you feel the buyer should not complete the transaction in the way suggested to him. I feel the same way, as does everyone else who has replied. However, I would never rule out a retailer or accuse him of dishonesty because he uses eBay for exposure.

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#1943355 - 08/15/12 06:41 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
ERN Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/15/12
Posts: 15
Loc: York, Pa.
I recently took a real leap of faith and purchased a Kawai KG-3 based on pictures and conversation with the dealer. In fact I traded a 25 year old Kohler that he accepted based on my pictures and conversation. The Kawai had been pretty much rebuild and my total outlay was $5000 cash plus the Kohler in trade. I love the piano and it all worked out for me, but I had no illusions that it was not a risk. Anyway, the terms were that I gave the delivery person a check on delivery. No cash changed hands until I actually had the piano in my home. Probably not the normal way to do it, but we both trusted the other person.

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#1943360 - 08/15/12 06:51 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
bbuckis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 81
Originally Posted By: Ken Elias
The dealer would prefer to not use the eBay system, and wants me to send a full pre-payment before he ships the piano. I'm really nervous about that,


You should be nervous about that!

Originally Posted By: Ken Elias
and after seeing on this forum an idea from someone about using escrow.com, I think, well there's a solution that would address my concern. But the dealer says he doesn't want to bother with that.


He would not want to bother with that, because? it would complicate ripping you off.

Originally Posted By: Ken Elias
Frankly, he seems like a very reputable person, very good-hearted. Aren't the scams mostly craigslist type things, not real live dealers? Perhaps this is nothing to be concerned about.


With just the two things listed above. There is plenty to be concerned about! If however you can afford to lose nine grand go for it.
_________________________
The only thing preventing me from owning a Steinway & Sons produced piano, is Steinway & Sons Customer Service. They should work on that.

Fortunately the piano I want the most is sold by Steinway & Sons!
Unfortunately the piano I want the most is only sold by Steinway & Sons.

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#1943369 - 08/15/12 07:14 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8412
Loc: Georgia, USA
Hello again, Ken Elias,

I was just curious whether or not you ever PM'd Steve Cohen to get a recommendation (or not) on the eBay dealer in question?

I was just thinking, when someone pays thousands of dollars for a piano, (sight unseen or not) there has to be some trust in there somewhere, on both sides of the equation.

Of the pianos I’ve purchased, I not only looked at and played the pianos, but I met the sellers and got a feel for what kind of people they were. At that point, I built a certain level of trust toward them, and they with me.

I hope it works out for you, what ever you decide to do.

Rick
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#1943386 - 08/15/12 07:55 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4414
Loc: San Jose, CA
"...I had no illusions that it was not a risk. Anyway, the terms were that I gave the delivery person a check on delivery. No cash changed hands until I actually had the piano in my home. Probably not the normal way to do it..."

Glad it worked out for you, ERN.

Paying the remaining balance-in-full on delivery is not unusual, as far as I can make out from statements posted here by store reps, and by people who have bought used pianos at a distance, which would have made payment in-person inconvenient. It was also my personal experience when dealing locally: I paid a deposit to reserve, then the balance the day of shipment (or about then; it might have been the day before).

Unless you finance your purchase through the store, I believe vendors want to be paid before or upon delivery.

"...Aren't the scams mostly craigslist type things, not real live dealers? Perhaps this is nothing to be concerned about..."

Oh, no. Indeed you should be concerned! It might not necessarily be a scam or a fraudulent representation of the merchandise (though it can and has happened), but it IS something to be concerned about, that you exercise your personal responsibility to look out for your own interests.

You should read the sales contract, and make sure it says on paper what you have discussed with the vendor. That should include the make, model, serial number, sale price, sales tax, delivery, payment and other terms (included tunings, for example). Any deposit or other payment should be properly receipted. That is minimal, and should all be correct and in order. If you are asked to tender, or accept as tender (if you are selling) anything other than the exact amount of the sale, run don't walk! That is a serious danger sign of a real scam.

The contract may also include the piano's date of manufacture, an inspection report mentioning any repairs, and (if it's a store) a store warranty--- which will have its own terms, and which you should understand. You may very well need to ask questions until you do understand what is warranted, what is excluded from the warranty, and what your recourse is, should it prove unsatisfactory. The language is often opaque, and uses terms with special legal meanings--- for a sales contract is a legal document.

Setting right any trouble with a sale is not an easy matter. You should head off trouble by looking out for yourself all the way along. There are plenty of sad and angry letters about it on this site, if you care to look into it. Misunderstandings can be as hurtful and aggravating (almost) as actual fraud. So, being sure that you have a clearly-understood agreement, spelled out on that piece of paper, is one big way you can protect your experience. Though of course, every problem cannot be foreseen.

"...Many folks on here suggest that you should always play the instrument you intend to buy. It's hard to do that from the Central Valley of California, where pianos are few and far between..."

I have not shopped there personally, but I have 'heard' people here speak of at least one very fine piano store in Sacramento--- maybe more--- and possibly, in Fresno. And you could take your pick of quite a few in San Jose and the Bay Area, or the ones in L.A. You only have to deliver yourself to the store; they all deliver, and if you're trading up they will also take away the old piano.

What, can't you come up, do a little piano shopping, have dinner, go to a concert? It could be fun. Miss the traffic both ways.


Edited by Jeff Clef (08/16/12 12:20 AM)
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#1943483 - 08/16/12 12:01 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: turandot]
Elkayem Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/12
Posts: 159
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
Originally Posted By: turandot
...The folks that own those businesses are not dishonest. EBay for its part does not prevent retailers from listing their business, its address, and its telephone number in the listing. It also allows vendors to state in the listing that the merchandise might become unavailable if sold through another channel...


A direct cut and paste from eBay's policy:

We don't allow our members to use eBay to contact each other to make offers to buy or sell items outside of eBay. Also, members can't use information obtained from eBay to contact each other about buying or selling outside of eBay.

If you receive an offer to buy or sell outside eBay, please report it.


Link to Policy

The situation the OP describes seems really shady to me. Maybe some dealers are willing to risk their reputation for the "free" advertising, but it is certainly not honest. I checked out the $9K Kawai ad, and it clearly stated the purchase would be protected by the eBay Buyer Protection Program. Truth in advertising? How can a retailer stand behind that?
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#1943614 - 08/16/12 08:39 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8412
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Elkayem
A direct cut and paste from eBay's policy:

We don't allow our members to use eBay to contact each other to make offers to buy or sell items outside of eBay. Also, members can't use information obtained from eBay to contact each other about buying or selling outside of eBay.

If you receive an offer to buy or sell outside eBay, please report it.

I’ve always been one to want to abide by the rules of any organization I’m involved with. I’m thinking there is a concept called “the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law”.

As I stated in this thread, I initially saw both pre-owned grand pianos I’ve owned advertized at auction on eBay. I did not bid on either, and neither did anyone else. In both instances, the auction ended without any bids, period. I did obtain contact information for the sellers through the eBay listing. It just so happened that I was not able to go look at the pianos in person before the auction ended. Neither seller re-listed the piano on eBay before I made them an offer.

Ironically, I paid more than starting bid for the Tokai Grand because the seller said he wanted more than the starting bid for the piano (and I did not know any better at the time). Had I bid on it on eBay, I would have save a few hundred dollars.

As far as the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law, I do not think I violated any of eBay’s rules because the auction had ended and the items were not relisted. I did, however, obtain the contact information through the eBay listing. And, I’m sure this kind of thing happens frequently on eBay with big ticket items. I’m thinking eBay’s policies are meant for auctions that are active.

Oh yea, one more thing, I do not think any ads or auctions on eBay are free.

Rick
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Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1943636 - 08/16/12 09:27 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Rickster]
turandot Offline
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Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7139
Loc: torrance, CA
Rick,

No need to question yourself. Neither eBay nor Escrow.com is a consumer protection agency. Both sell a service based on getting a slice of the sale proceeds.

It is the buyer's call to determine whether an offered deal is acceptable, just as it is a seller's call to decide whether a lowball offer should be taken seriously. Valuation of used pianos is tricky enough when the piano is in hand. Those who can decide from a distance that a retailer is dishonest and intent on ripping you off have a special 'talent'.

There really should be a forum for moral outrage so that this 'talent' can be exercised and shared in a moral vacuum unfettered by facts or context.
_________________________
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#1943652 - 08/16/12 10:02 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
Elkayem Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/12
Posts: 159
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
Rick, the situation you describe sounds fine to me. Once an auction ends, the agreement between the seller and eBay has also ended.

You are right that there is a small fee. It is free for the first 50 auctions per month, and $2 for each ad after that. eBay makes its money on the sale, which is 9% with a maximum of $250. Pretty steep, but they also do have a "classified" option which does not have any final value fee and allows the transaction to occur outside eBay. These ads are more, about $10.

However, the seller in question chose to list his ad as an auction (likely for free unless he had 50 pianos for sale) rather than paying for a classified ad, and then requested seller pay him outside of eBay.
_________________________
Schimmel 130T

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#1943673 - 08/16/12 10:38 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
Annitenth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 456
Loc: Texas
And does the buyer know if the ad was an auction or a classified ad? I certainly didn't know. And, like Rick, I bought after the listing had ended. I had monitored the eBay listing, and the agent's listings on his own site, for some time before purchase.
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Bsendorfer 225
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#1943686 - 08/16/12 10:54 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
Elkayem Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/02/12
Posts: 159
Loc: Santa Clara, CA
I only see one Kawai RX2 offered at $9K for sale on eBay right now, and it is an auction. Maybe the OP was looking at a different ad. I just assumed.

Sorry for the 'moral outrage'. Just commenting on what others have also stated was a red flag. I think if the buyer wanted to complete the transaction through eBay, the seller should have complied. If the fee really were a big deal, he should have listed it for $9250 and everyone can go home happy.

By the way, I also get irritated when I see retailers who require a minimum charge for using a credit card, also in violation of the terms of service of the credit card companies. Maybe I should stop worrying about these things. crazy
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Schimmel 130T

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#1943726 - 08/16/12 11:31 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: turandot]
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17746
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
Originally Posted By: turandot


There really should be a forum for moral outrage so that this 'talent' can be exercised and shared in a moral vacuum unfettered by facts or context.


I didn't see any moral outrage, just correcting your post that implied that the seller was operating within the rules of eBay, which was not the case.
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Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

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#1944381 - 08/17/12 09:57 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Monica K.]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7139
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Monica K.
Originally Posted By: turandot


There really should be a forum for moral outrage so that this 'talent' can be exercised and shared in a moral vacuum unfettered by facts or context.


I didn't see any moral outrage, just correcting your post that implied that the seller was operating within the rules of eBay, which was not the case.


It is eBay, not its professional vendors, that is not operating within the rules of eBay.

If you really think that eBay is unknowingly being abused by "dishonest" piano retailers whose intent is to "rip off" their customers, you should bring it to their attention. I don't think their policy gurus are reading here on a regular basis. It's possible that they haven't noticed.

If, on the other hand, you have personal reservations about doing business with a seller who uses eBay for exposure while offering the same merchandise through other channels, that's certainly your prerogative.
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#1944490 - 08/17/12 01:27 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
This is a copy of the wording on all communication generated in, or transmitted through, the eBay system.

"Do not respond to the sender if this message requests that you complete the transaction outside of eBay. This type of offer is against eBay policy, may be fraudulent, and is not covered by buyer protection programs. Learn More."
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1944647 - 08/17/12 05:52 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
bbuckis Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 81
Ken Elias,
Your communication with this seller through the eBay system or not. Should be reported to eBay.
The dealer (seller) preferring not to use the eBay system to conclude this deal was inappropriate.
This professional vendor should be put on notice.
_________________________
The only thing preventing me from owning a Steinway & Sons produced piano, is Steinway & Sons Customer Service. They should work on that.

Fortunately the piano I want the most is sold by Steinway & Sons!
Unfortunately the piano I want the most is only sold by Steinway & Sons.

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#1944661 - 08/17/12 06:12 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Rickster]
Steve Cohen Online   content
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Registered: 05/26/01
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Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Originally Posted By: Rickster
Hello again, Ken Elias,

I was just curious whether or not you ever PM'd Steve Cohen to get a recommendation (or not) on the eBay dealer in question?



Hi Rick.

The OP did PM me. Unfortunately I did not know the dealership in question.
_________________________
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#1944687 - 08/17/12 07:13 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
Rickster Online   content


Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 8412
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
Hi Rick.

The OP did PM me. Unfortunately I did not know the dealership in question.

Thanks for the follow-up, Steve.

Even though it is a small world within the piano business/industry, from what I have read here on PW, I suppose it is difficult for you to know every dealer out there.

And, there is no doubt that your advice is highly regarded in the industry, and here on PW.

As far as whether or not this dealer is violating any eBay rules requiring full payment up-front outside of the eBay channels before shipping the piano, I’m not sure.

Rick
_________________________
Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#1945465 - 08/19/12 11:53 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
Dale Erwin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Modesto, Ca
Hi Ken
I'm a rebuilder in in Modesto,Ca and I too know a few dealers in L.A. I find LA prices for pianos and services to be largely LOW ball for piano prices and largely just commercial quality tech work as competition is fierce. Never the less, there are some fine techs and shops in the area.
Another ave. to explore would be to hire one of these reputable well know tech in the LA area who also is an astute judge of piano tone and mechanical potential.
I have played some really stellar Rxs and some that were so so. Isn't that the nature of musical instruments? all different.
I like Kawais overall and find I can do a lot with the tone. I'm not fond of Asian hammers whatsoever and find a good hammer transplant covers over a multitude of sins, so to speak. However the hammers must be prepped for an accurate weight curve that works well with the overall leverage of the action. Its important to find a tech who can accurately determine this & is familiar with the finer points of custom action balancing or Stanwood techniques. Not necessarily a Stanwood installer but some one with some well know chops among his peers.
Know what I mean?
Nough said
Dale Erwin RPT
Erwinspiano.com
_________________________
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Piano Restorations
http://WWW.Erwinspiano.com ....Erwinspiano@aol.com
4721 Parker rd. Modesto Ca 95357
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Steinway Restoration/sales and other fine makes
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#1945541 - 08/19/12 01:31 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Dale Erwin]
turandot Offline
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Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7139
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Dale Erwin
Hi Ken
I'm a rebuilder in in Modesto,Ca and I too know a few dealers in L.A. I find LA prices for pianos and services to be largely LOW ball for piano prices and largely just commercial quality tech work as competition is fierce. Never the less, there are some fine techs and shops in the area.


This is a very fair and balanced statement and rings true in my experience. If one is looking for a stellar example of a breed, one is unlikely to find it on an eBay listing, for the very reason that Dale suggested -- competition is fierce with greater sensitivity to price than to rigorously high standards of prep and quality.



To those who keep insisting that a dealer who lists on eBay and sells outside eBay is inherently dishonest and to be avoided. I would point out the following example.

It was suggested early in this thread that Ken avoid the eBay seller and visit Kim's Piano in Garden Grove, CA. Ken had played an RX piano in Kim's shop a while back and found it very appealing.

While I would not hesitate to advise a person looking for a used Kawai or Yamaha artist grade piano to check out Kim's Piano (and I have visited he shop myself), it is a fact that Mr. Kim lists his used piano inventory on eBay. At present that amounts to 44 acoustic pianos. Each acoustic piano listing includes Mr Kim's business name, physical address, business E-mail address, and telephone number.

A check of Mr. Kim's eBay profile states a 100% satisfaction rating from those who have done eBay business with him. A review of the transactions reveals that there were a total of 10 transactions completed since he joined in 2009. A review of those transactions reveals that in each of the 10 cases, Mr. Kim was the buyer and not the seller.

It seems unlikely that in 2012 Mr. Kim would be listing 44 used pianos on eBay unless it was in some way useful to his core business of selling pianos. After all, these listings may be cheap, but they are not free. Yet there is no record over his 3 years of membership of any piano offered by Mr. Kim being sold through eBay.

I am in no way wishing to slam Mr. Kim or his business . I think that any prospective piano buyer who see a piano on his eBay listings and finds it attractive should visit his store, focus on the merits of the piano, and get a feeling for the person he may be doing business with. In terms of what sales channel is appropriate, it would depend IMO on what channel serves his interests best. Since the owner of the piano is Mr. Kim and any necessary post-sale follow-up attention will come from Mr. Kim and not from some eBay tuner, buying in store from Mr. Kim would seem to serve his best interests by acquainting him with Mr. Kim and his shop. Obviously, in being an in-store customer, he will also avoid the disappointment that occurs when the merchandise received does not live up to expectations generated by the listing. Other than simple non-delivery, this is the most common snafu on eBay.

IMO, people who shop eBay listings for pianos should not consider a blind purchase through eBay unless they have a strong appetite for risk, this despite eBay's highly-touted Buyer Protection program.

I believe Mr. Kim is a member here and if I have misinterpreted his eBay information, I hope he will come on and correct me. Again, I have no wish whatsoever to put Mr. Kim in a bad light. I just wanted to point out the realities of the piano retail marketplace. There are plenty of other examples across the US, but I used Mr. Kim's shop as an example only because Ken had been advised to check out pianos there in person rather than buying blind. I believe that is very good advice.

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#1945549 - 08/19/12 01:42 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
Norbert Offline
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Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14117
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So far the discussion here has been primarily about "legitimacy" and "low price".

I found Dales's above post very refreshing addressing the IMHO more important issues when buying a piano.

Norbert thumb
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#1945601 - 08/19/12 03:14 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Mr. Kim is not the dealer in question. He is not identified as the eBay seller at all. The OP has not indicated the name of the seller of the piano he was interested in. The eBay ad was two years after the OP had visited Mr Kim's store. Speculation and conjecture are not fact.
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It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#1945617 - 08/19/12 03:48 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Norbert]
turandot Offline
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Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7139
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: Norbert
So far the discussion here has been primarily about "legitimacy" and "low price".

I found Dales's above post very refreshing addressing the IMHO more important issues when buying a piano.

Norbert thumb


I'll agree with you, but it's possible the thread has gone in the direction of legitimacy and price because that was he nature of the OP's inquiry. It's also possible that the OP has left the thread in favor of visiting Easter Island to seek the opinion of the local talking heads there. grin

MinnMarty,

The reason for the example I gave was perfectly clear (except to the most obtuse).

I'd recommended Kaopectate. If that fails, go with Immodium AD and a soup ladle in place of a teaspoon.
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#1945796 - 08/19/12 09:20 PM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Ken Elias]
j&j Offline
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Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 444
Loc: Southwest
Pianos, vehicles, and horses should never be bought sight-unseen. There's way too many things that can be wrong or not to the buyer's liking....and asking for the full price up front...I couldn't run away fast enough.
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Yahama C3 PE
Casio Privia PX-330
"Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working." Pablo Picasso

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#1946017 - 08/20/12 09:43 AM Re: RX-2 Purchase by Long Distance [Re: Rickster]
Cmajor Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/03/11
Posts: 229
Loc: USA
Ebay does have a strong customer satisfaction policy but when you sidestep Ebay you lose that protection. If the seller is also requiring full payment by check or money order prior to shipping that should sound the final buzzer, loud and clear, game over! Payment by major credit card (not a debit card) or PayPal gives you some protection.

As has been pointed out over and over on this forum, it is always risky business to purchase a piano sight unseen and long distance. IMHO, only a rock solid dealer with an impeccable reputation should be considered for such a transaction. Even then, it might be a good idea to cash in some of those air miles you've been accumulating and go have a look see...

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