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#1941001 - 08/11/12 07:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1201
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee


But legato still needs work. That's a lifetime of work there. All articulation is I suppose. Beeboss truly honed in this early on. He's been talking about this (articulation) for years, including dynamics in jazz.


Yes it does need work, forever. On a piano what have you got - note on note off and velocity of attack (and if one forgets about the pedals) nothing else. All the things that we regard as desirable - pearly fast notes, voicings where melody comes through, a singing tone, a deep swing, a rhythmic drive - all these have to be achieved by subtle manipulation of just these few variables.
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#1941178 - 08/12/12 02:34 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Finger independent legato though seems to be fundamental to the jazz sound. Probably needs to be mastered first (to some degree since it may take beyond a lifetime to get to KJ's legato).

As I'm writing this, I'm icing my hand as it got strained from overpractice of thumb over-under legato last week. I actually LOST legato when I played last probably because my thumb hurts. (Yes I realize that it got strained because I was doing something wrong).
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#1941200 - 08/12/12 04:19 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
The piano is a staccato instrument, it's percussive by nature, whereas a wind instrument is naturally legato, breathe out and move those valves/keys.

So I prefer the school of playing that Bill Evans, Keith Jarrett, etc belongs to.



Hi Chris
Is this what the Bill Evans biography refers to when it mentions that Bill developed a way to deal with the instantly decaying nature of a note ?

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#1941201 - 08/12/12 04:22 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: custard apple

So Dave, for playing triplets, could I please confirm that I could accent either the 1st, 2nd or the 3rd note of a triplet ?




Start with accenting the first until you are very comfortable at a medium speed. It is hard to accent the others, especially at tempo. Ultimately it is best to be able to accent any one you wish to bring out and there are lots of cool cross-rhythms that you can do accenting say every 4th triplet.


OK Dave, I'll start with accenting the first of every 3 notes when I practise triplets.
In a long string of triplets, is it better to accent every 6 notes ?

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#1941216 - 08/12/12 04:50 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
chrisbell Offline
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Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1353
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: custard apple
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
The piano is a staccato instrument, it's percussive by nature, whereas a wind instrument is naturally legato, breathe out and move those valves/keys. So I prefer the school of playing that Bill Evans, Keith Jarrett, etc belongs to.

Hi Chris
Is this what the Bill Evans biography refers to when it mentions that Bill developed a way to deal with the instantly decaying nature of a note ?
Well, he was trained in the Russian school of playing (Heinrich Neuhaus amongst others) as he played a lot of Chopin one must assume he was familiar with Cortot's exercises. So I assume he applied all that knowledge as he moved into jazz. Don't forget that Evans practised alot, mythology says up to 18 hours a day.

Interesting, this discussion concerning Legato, touch etc we've had earlier, albeit in a different manner.


Edited by chrisbell (08/12/12 05:00 AM)
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#1941228 - 08/12/12 05:56 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1201
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: custard apple


OK Dave, I'll start with accenting the first of every 3 notes when I practise triplets.
In a long string of triplets, is it better to accent every 6 notes ?


If you are doing it as an exercise then do it both ways. If you are actually playing music then do whatever you think the music demands at that moment.
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#1941250 - 08/12/12 08:19 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1201
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: chrisbell

Well, he was trained in the Russian school of playing (Heinrich Neuhaus amongst others) as he played a lot of Chopin one must assume he was familiar with Cortot's exercises. So I assume he applied all that knowledge as he moved into jazz. Don't forget that Evans practised alot, mythology says up to 18 hours a day.


I have just started on the Pettinger biog, these details are not in there. Just curious what your sources are.
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#1941333 - 08/12/12 10:56 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Originally Posted By: custard apple
Hi Knotty
For D7s in general I tend to use mixolydian. But I know you like me using lydian dominant, so I've used that too.
For Take the A train, I use lydian dominant as that is the sound intended by the head.


Depends where the D7 is. But if it's not part of the 2-5-1, then it's a good bet that lydian dominant is a better choice. So that's a good one to practice.
All the things you are is not such a good one for that, but What is this thing called love it. Stella, Beautiful Love, etc...

Quote:

Thanks very much for your quest in trying to make my workload easier, much appreciated smile


you're funny wink

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#1941612 - 08/12/12 07:52 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Yeah good point Knotty. While the b9 sound can often sound too out in the middle of a 2 5 1 progression, it is very handy for negotiating dominants that aren't part of a 2 5 1.

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#1941680 - 08/12/12 10:38 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: custard apple
Yeah good point Knotty. While the b9 sound can often sound too out in the middle of a 2 5 1 progression, it is very handy for negotiating dominants that aren't part of a 2 5 1.


Hmmm. You may need to transcribe lots of Bill Evans. He's a b9 kind of guy.
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#1941735 - 08/13/12 01:29 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Are you talking about lydian dominants for a major progression which are
not part of a chromatic sequence; and
on beats 1 or 3 ?

Do you regularly yourself like to use the lydian dominant for a major 2 5 1 progression ?

I might have to seriously transcribe something Bill Evans.
Next up on my list for studying is melodic minor: Cannonball's Autumn Leaves suggested by Chris.

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#1941741 - 08/13/12 01:43 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: custard apple


OK Dave, I'll start with accenting the first of every 3 notes when I practise triplets.
In a long string of triplets, is it better to accent every 6 notes ?


If you are doing it as an exercise then do it both ways. If you are actually playing music then do whatever you think the music demands at that moment.


Thank you Dave !

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#1941826 - 08/13/12 08:20 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
if you want to use color on a 2-5-1, a very easy way is to use a tritone substitution. Play Db7 instead of G7 and all of a sudden you've got yourself some color. You don't even need to learn a new scale, extension or anything. Free.

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#1942156 - 08/13/12 06:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Hi Knots
Only recently have I become confident with using tritone subs. I love the slightly out sound and their smooth voice leading properties so much that I hope I do not become in danger of over-using them smile

For the last line of the bridge on ATTYA, I've been changing scales.
F# min 7 b5: A Blues scale
B7 (tritone subbed as F7) : I use F7 scale (Bb maj scale)
E maj 7: E maj scale

I hope you're OK with this approach.

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#1942157 - 08/13/12 06:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Why do the tritone sub on a minor ii-V? Minor ii-V has colors already. We just discussed the zillions of scale options there. Think of it on MAJOR ii-V.
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#1942170 - 08/13/12 07:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
It is for the E maj sequence.

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#1942192 - 08/13/12 08:12 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Here's the one thing that doesn't work over B7, it's Bbmaj7. But almost. If you use your favorite F lydian dominant over the B7, then you have yourself the fancy B altered scale, which is also C melodic minor.

But the point is that once you got the lydian dominant down, you get good bang for your buck.

So you have lots of ways to think about one given scale, but in my view, some approaches are just easier than others.

You can also experiment with arpeggios and extended arpeggios, substituting one dom7 for another.

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#1942213 - 08/13/12 08:45 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
I would change that to "cus gets good bang for her buck" from your advice.
Yeah you're right, if you consider the whole progression as E maj, the Bb doesn't work. Whereas your suggestion of lydian dom, or C mel minor, works really well.

But if you consider the local measure of F7, the Bb maj is the perfect fit.

However I'm in the process of training myself to think of the bigger picture, because I think that is what Bill Evans does from the Touch of your Lips video that you recommended.

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#1942223 - 08/13/12 09:08 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
That Bill Evans interview is dynamite for sure.

Halberstadt has a very good method for finding "most consonant" scales. Do you have that book? Anyway, it just works out that way that the tritone sub scales just matches the altered scale (super locrian). I think it's a decent trick. find what works for you.


If you want real outside sound, check out Dave's video on playing outside. That should keep you busy for the next 25 years or so ... wink

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#1942261 - 08/13/12 10:25 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Hey Knotty
No I don't have the Halberstadt book. Does the book give practical exercises ?
I have watched Dave's video and at the moment it's too advanced for me. I'm ready to play just a bit out but not way out.

Also I'm going to change all my dominant chords that I've altered to the dim. The dim chord to me is too sinister a sound for ATTYA, do you agree ?

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#1942312 - 08/14/12 12:42 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: custard apple
It is for the E maj sequence.


In ATTYA, the F#-7b5 B7 is a trick progression because it's a minor ii-V but then it goes to E major. Don't then assume that the entire ii-V-i progression is major. It just switched to major at the tonic (so it changed scales). So you have to treat it for what it is. A minor ii-V. The major ii-V it represents is a minor third away. So you go here from G scale (if we take out alterations) to E scale. That should tell you in itself that a tritone sub will not voice lead back to Emaj7 since that belongs to a different key.

Edit - BTW - this is where most people get messed up in ATTYA.


Edited by jazzwee (08/14/12 12:43 AM)
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#1942335 - 08/14/12 02:22 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

Don't then assume that the entire ii-V-i progression is major. It just switched to major at the tonic (so it changed scales).


So is the A pentatonic an OK scale to use over the F# min7 b5 ?

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#1942370 - 08/14/12 04:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Hi everyone
Apologies if it feels like I'm dominating this thread blush

On the subject of bridges which are difficult to interpret, I'm doing an arrangement for When I Fall in Love.
I don't understand the harmonic interpretation of the roots Eb maj to Ab maj to G min7 to Fmin 7 ?

I would value your insight.

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#1942372 - 08/14/12 04:25 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Hi Cus, as mentioned earlier (and I realize it's all confusing), but the proper mode to use (of the melodic minor) over a half diminished chord is a Diminished Whole Tone Scale (it's a diminished scale to the Tritone and whole tone after that, hence the name).

Some of these is just memorized. There's a reference in Levine. I think that this is particularly important to know since a half diminished chord is pretty common (like Autumn Leaves).

I can tell you that my teacher(s) would expect me to know it instantly.
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#1942373 - 08/14/12 04:26 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: custard apple
Hi everyone
Apologies if it feels like I'm dominating this thread blush


You're keeping the thread active so how can that be a bad thing? smile
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#1942396 - 08/14/12 06:28 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Hi Cus, as mentioned earlier (and I realize it's all confusing), but the proper mode to use (of the melodic minor) over a half diminished chord is a Diminished Whole Tone Scale (it's a diminished scale to the Tritone and whole tone after that, hence the name).

Some of these is just memorized. There's a reference in Levine. I think that this is particularly important to know since a half diminished chord is pretty common (like Autumn Leaves).

I can tell you that my teacher(s) would expect me to know it instantly.


Thanks JW. I'm only up to learning the melodic minor 1st mode. After this I will start on the diminished scales. Is the diminished whole tone scale the best one to learn straight after the melodic minor 1st mode ?

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#1942460 - 08/14/12 09:55 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 632
Loc: Chicago
Jazzwee: Shouldn't the diminished whole tone scale be used over the V chord in a minor II-V? You've indicated that it should be used over the half diminished (II) chord. I use locrian #2 over that part of the progression.

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#1942515 - 08/14/12 11:42 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7086
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: jjo
Jazzwee: Shouldn't the diminished whole tone scale be used over the V chord in a minor II-V? You've indicated that it should be used over the half diminished (II) chord. I use locrian #2 over that part of the progression.


LOL - wrong mode. Well I messed that up. I don't have the modes memorized but I know what it is I play (I did admit to that earlier smile )

OK so just to clear it up for Cus. It's Half-Dim (MM Mode VI) for Half-Dim chord, then Dim-Whole Tone for the V chord (MM Mode VII) then MinMaj7 for the I chord (MM Mode I). Just learn it for the whole minor ii-V-I.

When you check out the intervals against the underlying chord, it's pretty clear what should happen so that's why I stopped thinking of the scales (meaning I can quickly visualize the scale around the chord).
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#1942539 - 08/14/12 12:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 632
Loc: Chicago
Didn't mean to be the chord scale police!

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#1942746 - 08/14/12 07:03 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2300
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: jjo
Jazzwee: Shouldn't the diminished whole tone scale be used over the V chord in a minor II-V? You've indicated that it should be used over the half diminished (II) chord. I use locrian #2 over that part of the progression.


Much appreciated jjo.
I can't wait to finish learning the melodic minor scale 1st mode so that I can start learning the diminished whole tone scale.

In the meantime I'm very happy with Knotty's suggestion of C melodic minor or F lydian dominant.

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