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#1942420 - 08/14/12 07:58 AM Samick Seilers and voicing
Kiwisda Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/13/12
Posts: 11
Hi to everyone. This is my first post and I'm looking forward to interaction with others. I've been piano hunting for several months in an area where options are very limited.
The best quality piano I've tried so far has been a Seiler ED 186. Beautiful action, and everyone knows about the Seiler clarity. The treble was a little on the bright side, though certainly not harsh.
This model is not made in Germany, though it is claimed that it has the same design and scaling and so on.
Questions: (1) Given that basically the same components are used in the ED model as in the two higher (German made or German finished) models, can expert voicing bring this model to a level close to those higher models? After all, the differences seem to be in the finishing rather than in the materials.

(2) How much more mellow a sound (especially in the treble) can be achieved through voicing? Obviously, a Seiler has a different sound signature than a Bluthner or Grotrian; but if we start with a quality instrument like this, what can we hope for?

(3) Has anyone been able to compare the Samick ED models with the older German made ones?

By the way, I can get the new ED 186 for about $XX,XXX.

Thanks for any comments.

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#1942441 - 08/14/12 09:11 AM Re: Samick Seilers and voicing [Re: Kiwisda]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10528
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
Unfortunately I think it is too early to tell. The new ED line has been in distribution for less than a year.

The theory of the 3-tiered Seiler line has merit, but the key is the execution.
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#1942491 - 08/14/12 10:53 AM Re: Samick Seilers and voicing [Re: Kiwisda]
Steve Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 672
Loc: Toronto

I would not expect this piano to be able to be voiced
like you want. The differences exceed the similarities.


Take care,

Steve
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#1942950 - 08/15/12 12:33 AM Re: Samick Seilers and voicing [Re: Kiwisda]
Enrico Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 72
Loc: NJ
Come on and I can buy a new kawai rx3 for $11,000 and a c3 for $10,000! Why start a thread like this quoting a well below wholesale price hidden in a typical voicing question. I think this post was made on purpose to give false information to customers coming here to find good information on pianos. This does not help customers at all.

But to answer the all too obvious question, yes you can voice an Ed to sound like an ES. They have identical components and design! They even have the same scale design as the se.

I would defer to Kurtmen here on the forum for the details, but you can get a phenomenal "German Piano" for slightly more than the Japanese pianos out there.

Unfortunately there is no way to even get close to the price quoted above. You will be spending into the 30 K range. Similar to the Yamaha and Kawai pianos of the same size but the seiler has a superior scale design ( redesigned in 2005) and a superior soundboard (membrator) and a superior action (renner) and a great company standing behind the warranty!

I have been playing pianos for 36 years and selling them for 20 years and the new Seiler ED line is the best thing to happen to the piano industry that I have ever seen.

Now the quality sound and touch of a German piano can be afforded to most customers, and when a customer plays one of these Seiler pianos they can hear and feel the difference. It is night and day over the competitors.

Yes is sell them, yes they are great.



Edited by Enrico (08/15/12 11:30 AM)
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#1943042 - 08/15/12 07:22 AM Re: Samick Seilers and voicing [Re: Enrico]
Kiwisda Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/13/12
Posts: 11
Well, Enrico, on the one hand it doesn't give me a good feeling to be accused of lying on my very first post.

I'll let it pass, however, and others can make their own judgment. The fact is, I live in Korea. That's why I have only been able to try a limited number of pianos; it's like their car industry was until a few years ago: nearly all that you can see here is locally made. I have not seen one European or American instrument in this city of 4 million people.

The Samick Seiler ED 186 is currently on special (a promotional event) for 14 million won (US$12,344 at today's rates), with an iPad thrown in, bringing it down to about 13.5 million won if I don't take the iPad.

On the other hand, your post encourages me in the suspicion I have that maybe –because the piano is made in Korea – it's going to be a good deal cheaper here than anywhere else. In which case, this could be a very good deal. Thanks for that encouragement. (I would ask, though, before I get too excited: are you definitely talking about the Korean/Indonesian ED Seiler?)

I hope you and others will forgive my inexperience and lack of knowledge in asking what may to others be "all to obvious." The fact that my "typical" voicing question was necessary is evidenced by the fact that in the few replies I've so far had, there is not unanimous agreement as to what expert voicing can achieve with this instrument. My question was sincere and necessary. I'm well aware that voicing can make a big difference to a piano; nevertheless, my exact question in respect to the different Seiler models has not been asked or answered on this forum, so far as I can see. I hoped that by posing the question here that I could get a number of expert opinions that would give me the confidence to splash out on a piano which, under my fingers, was clearly a quality piano but which was just a little brighter than I would want in a new piano.

I'm still interested to know if anyone can comment on my second and third questions (especially the second) in my original post.

Thanks to you and all others for taking the trouble to respond.

P.S. Enrico, if I do buy the Seiler, I'll happily post a scan of the receipt.


Edited by Kiwisda (08/15/12 08:04 AM)

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#1943122 - 08/15/12 11:25 AM Re: Samick Seilers and voicing [Re: Kiwisda]
Enrico Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 72
Loc: NJ
Well. Now that I know you are in Korea. The Seiler you are looking at could not even be the same piano that can be purchased in the USA. It could be a Kohler or samick scale most likely an old stock world samick rebadged as a Seiler. Especially because you said it was bright. They hd many old stock samicks sent back to Korea for sale there because of more lax laws over there. So no one here can really help u with any authority. I know of a Seiler 121 sold in Korea that was a samick. It didn't have the same specs. Soundboard or scale as the German Seiler. In Korea and china there are many things that are different on the pianos being sold there than in the us.

Sorry to jump down your throat but I know what i pay for these and for a customer to buy one for less than I do, by a lot, made no sense whatsoever.

And when u put prices on the Internet that have no bearing on the market it confuses customers here in the US that would be paying at least double the price you put out there. No where did you say you live in Korea. Next time you should let everyone know this detail, it is very important for both the product you are looking at and pricing. Important
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#1943124 - 08/15/12 11:31 AM Re: Samick Seilers and voicing [Re: Kiwisda]
Enrico Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 72
Loc: NJ
Also they don't make a Seiler in Korea at all. Which now confirms my suspicion that this is not the same piano available here. No parts nothing!


Edited by Enrico (08/15/12 11:33 AM)
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#1943207 - 08/15/12 01:24 PM Re: Samick Seilers and voicing [Re: Kiwisda]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14266
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Few years ago I tried the new Seiler line during NAMM show. They're nice.

But IMHO they are not the same as their German made counterpart.

When the NAMM salesman tried to bluff me [perhaps to test my 'Germanic perception of things'... wink ] I told him right away "something's fishy here".

He kept smiling knowing full well I was on to something....

How these new series Seilers react to such work as voicing, etc depends on a few things not known to me. Perhaps it works well, perhaps not.

Much of it will depend on quality and execution of manufacturing plus parts and components used such as hammers. P.S. what hammers do they use?

And let's not forget the expertise of tech doing the work.
Huge variable....

wishing you the very best,

Norbert smile


Edited by Norbert (08/15/12 01:32 PM)
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#1943319 - 08/15/12 05:11 PM Re: Samick Seilers and voicing [Re: Norbert]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2772
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: Norbert
Few years ago I tried the new Seiler line during NAMM show. They're nice.

But IMHO they are not the same as their German made counterpart.
Two years ago, I felt the same way mostly due to action differences and the general rush in floor prepping for NAMM. The (the German SE and ED grand models distributed to N.America) both have Renner actions and the same Abel hammers, but the regulation was different and the repetition assist springs were set a little too firm. The factory settings have changed to reflect the input from Germany, from pianists and from dealers with great success.

The German Seilers factory voicing is still different but the gap is closing. The action difference is now even more subtle. The uprights do feel different, but with patient, careful prep, you can achieve extremely similar tone and same overall dynamic range. Emphasize patient.

As Rick stated, Samick often chooses to market different models OR models to different specs in other markets. For several years, Samick brand was entry level here but upgraded the models sold in Korea. Others are downgraded or marketed sideways. Samick is huge with more than a dozen brands around the world. We sold many artist series Knabe uprights to a university and had to verify correct specs with the factory order.

The Seiler ED 186 marketed to N.America has a wholesale well above the OP's quoted price, so it very difficult to make any comparisons here, unfortunately. This isn't a Yamaha "seasoned for" thing, but a reflection of quality and strategy to better place Seiler in the minds of American customers, a market that still has the most choices, most room for grands, and (maybe I'm wrong) most fickle buyers.

As far as I am aware, new Korean production is done, and I've never seen a "made in Korea" Seiler in person or in any company literature. I've also never been to Korea. To the OP, I'm really not sure what you have on your hands. My advice is to evaluate based upon the performance you can observe or what is within minor adjustments of what you see. Good luck in your search.
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#1943328 - 08/15/12 05:31 PM Re: Samick Seilers and voicing [Re: Kiwisda]
Kurtmen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 632
Loc: San Mateo, CA
Quote:
The best quality piano I've tried so far has been a Seiler ED 186. Beautiful action, and everyone knows about the Seiler clarity. The treble was a little on the bright side, though certainly not harsh.
This model is not made in Germany, though it is claimed that it has the same design and scaling and so on.


Welcomed to the Forum. Talking about a specific piano brand here is like talking about somebody else kids. wink Reactions are the most genuine expression to our passion for pianos.

I hope this information satisfies you.
Strings tension, gage and length distribution over the compass of the instrument has been identically matched on the Seiler ED186 to the Seiler’s scale designs prior to SMC. As well as other specifications such as down-bearing, D/l (striking points)etc.

Quote:
Questions: (1) Given that basically the same components are used in the ED model as in the two higher (German made or German finished) models, can expert voicing bring this model to a level close to those higher models? After all, the differences seem to be in the finishing rather than in the materials.

(2) How much more mellow a sound (especially in the treble) can be achieved through voicing? Obviously, a Seiler has a different sound signature than a Bluthner or Grotrian; but if we start with a quality instrument like this, what can we hope for?


The ED186 comes with Abel hammers as well as the Seiler 186 from Germany. The factory technicians have gone through very extensive training for voicing, and the pianos come well prepped from the factory. A good technician should be able to round the sound in the upper registers and bring it closer to your preferences.

My suggestion is to first properly tune the piano and play it multiple times, you’ll probably be surprise to find out that the current voice of the piano works well with the overall spectrum of the instrument.

(3) Has anyone been able to compare the Samick ED models with the older German made ones?

The two instruments share many aspects of construction besides the scale design such as the soundboard system.
The Membrator system is part of the design of the soundboard of the Seiler 186 as it is as well of the ED186.
However it is not completely identical to those built in Germany. On the German pianos the acoustic properties of the soundboard are different due to changes in wood density and construction methods that require highly experienced soundboard makers. One example of these methods is the use of a laser template that marks certain areas in the soundboard where the soundboard-maker checks the fundamental pitch of each of these points (those points must be at a particular interval from each other). Also there is a different procedure for the crowning of the soundboard in Germany which is exclusive to Seiler pianos made in Germany. There are benefits to the amplification and sustain of the piano with these methods but they are extremely costly.


What to expect from a Seiler ED186?
The ED186 it is musically a very successful instrument, built with quality and it has been well engineered. The current designs in use by SMC are the result of over 50 years of modern piano making and engineering (1950-2005) The era of Steffen Seiler brought tremendous improvements to piano manufacturing that have been incorporated to previous knowledge.
The difference in cost makes it not only a good value but a great example of excellence in modern piano manufacturing. This is in all extend of the word a professional grand piano.



Best Regards,


Edited by Kurtmen (08/15/12 05:50 PM)
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#1943600 - 08/16/12 07:27 AM Re: Samick Seilers and voicing [Re: Kiwisda]
Kiwisda Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/13/12
Posts: 11
A huge thanks to everyone who has taken the time to respond. I've learned some important things. From your responses, I'm encouraged to look again at the Seiler.

Rick has put a slight doubt in my mind as to whether it's a genuine Seiler, and I appreciate the warning. But I think it is highly unlikely that a company trying to establish a new, quality instrument in the market would take the dreadful risk of simply rebadging an old model. The makes available to look at and try in dealers here in Korea is very limited, but I have been able to try a small Samick Pramberger, a 6'1" and 6'4" Knabe, a 6' plus Sohmer and a 6'1" Kohler & Campbell, and I can say that the Seiler leads the pack. Since trying it I have often said to my wife that its action was better than any of the others, even though some of them also had Renner actions. If this Seiler is a rebadged model of something else, what could it possibly be that it is so obviously better than even their other best pianos? (The Kohler, Rick, is an impossible candidate, being much more mellow in tone, but completely lacking in oomph; I could get nothing much from it.) Besides, the piano I tried was not sitting in a dealer's shop. It was "on tour", if you like, and I tried it in a department store alongside a new Knabe and Kohler, both of the same size. I was told I could buy either that particular Seiler piano or another specimen. Would Samick parade a rebadged, inferior piano, in a promotional event for one of their top new line?

It was not easy trying to really listen to this piano in a busy department store: I was afraid to play loudly, and when I played really quietly (a very important test), I could hardly hear the piano (though I was able to tell how well the action responded). But finding another specimen to try won't be so easy now that that particular Seiler has been moved to another center. For your general interest (if it is of any interest), the mindset of dealers here in Korea is a little difficult. They seem reluctant to have their best pianos out on show on the floor because it would then be (in the customer's eyes) a secondhand piano! Which makes it very difficult to track the best models down to try out. For example, I've only seen one (small) Pramberger, and no Albert Webers. I may have to travel to Seoul (two or three hundred miles away) to find one.

I will also do some more investigating to find out where the piano is made. It may be that something got lost in translation when the dealer was telling my Korean wife where the three pianos (Knabe, Kohler and Seiler) were made.


Edited by Kiwisda (08/16/12 08:21 AM)

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