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eBay might have policies regarding cancelling auctions; if a bid is binding, so should the seller's offer.

But if it were Craigslist, then it's all business and nothin' personal!

Thanks Sam. You have pegged my interest correctly. It's basically to see what's available locally that's out of the ordinary. I recall a local retailer offering a new Estonia 190 with the Faz board on eBay for a flat price of 49k. He attracted interest even here in the piano forum. He did not expect to sell at that price. In this case, overpricing was part of his glamour strategy rather than the typical something-for-nothing tease of an eBay 99 cent auction. As it tuned out, he sold that piano at more than 40% less than the eBay price in a conventional transaction, and I would guess he still made his margin. The bonus??...... he got some people into the store who liked Estonia pianos, and he had other Estonias in stock.

Admittedly though, there are other SoCal shops that would not consider advertising on eBay because they feel it would hurt their image. They don't want to seem like clearance centers desperate for a sale.



When you placed those eBay listings, did you include your business name, location, and telephone number in the listing? Did you go with flat "Buy it now" prices?



Minn Mary,

It's obvious that this sort of transaction does not meet your personal ethical standards. You've posted that twice.

However, there is nothing in the op's description to indicate that this particular piano is a legitimate auction item. The OP quotes a flat price of 9k, not a fluid price with a last bid of 9k. In point of fact, almost no brick and mortar retailer who uses eBay for exposure risks going with the auction format unless he either...

1) sets a high minimum bid which is just about the price he wants for it (thus protecting his margin)

2) sets a low entry bid with a hidden reserve to obscure what he really wants for it (thus teasing the naive bargain-hunter's interest while still protecting his margin)

Despite your personal scruples about what is ethical, the interests of the buyer are best served by seeing and playing the piano. He will sacrifice eBay's money back if not satisfied scheme, but he will have a better understanding of what it is he is about to buy and who it is who it is he is about to buy it from.

The process by which eBay arranges refunds is sticky and takes time. It goes through a dispute resolution process in which both sides agree that eBay's determination will be binding. I don't think that serves the needs of buyers or sellers of expensive merchandise that can be subject to very varied subjective opinions of quality. To me it would seem silly for a prospective buyer to insist on buying through the eBay channel at the cost of buying sight unseen.

Actually, even when an eBay dispute is as simple as non-delivery of the item, getting a transaction refunded through eBay is slow and frustrating. I know. I've been there. In any transaction involving a buyer, a seller, and eBay, I'd be more worried about the buyer or seller being shortchanged, not eBay.

Turandot,

The piano was listed on eBay and whether it was a "Buy it Now" or an auction is irrelevant. I am not talking about the rules and agreements concerning transactions through eBay. I am very familiar with eBay and use it all the time. Personally, I would never consider buying a piano through eBay. It is totally different than buying stuff for my model railroad.

What I cautioned, from the very start, is the integrity of the seller, or in this case a piano salesman/dealer.



That is an individual who is willing to disregard the contract agreement with eBay when listing any item for sale. To me it was an immediate red flag. That was my caution to Ken, the OP.

Thank you for your very detailed explanation of how eBay works. I am most often a "buyer" but also have considerable experience as a "seller." I know the ropes.

I've got a 1996 RX2 which I absolutely love. It does, though, have a rather heavier action than the new Millenium II action. I like it that way, and find it wonderfully controllable, but do beware that it does feel quite different to the Millenium II. It can be lightened (my tech knows that I like it just the way it is, so does not regulate it to be any lighter) but I still think you'd find its not quite the same as the Millenium II.

Appears to be a disconnect here. There's in nothing in the thread to suggest that the seller was cancelling a legitimate offer simply to get a higher price outside the eBay channel. There is nothing to suggest it was an auction item at all.

However, since your advice to the OP is to not buy an eBay piano sight unseen, I guess your ethical question is of minor importance. The advice to see what you're buying before you commit seems to be unanimous and in the OP's best interest.

I'm not sure I agree with you on this. The OP said: "The dealer would prefer to not use the eBay system, and wants me to send a full pre-payment before he ships the piano." That's a strange way to phrase things if the auction had been concluded or if it were a non-auction item. My take on the matter is that the seller was using eBay to get a wide audience of shoppers for the piano, but did not want to have the transaction proceed through eBay, perhaps because he/she wanted to avoid the hefty cut that eBay takes, or wanted to avoid potential problems in the way that eBay is so heavily slanted in the buyer's favor in terms of complaints/returns.

Either way, it is a red flag, and the OP was right to be nervous.

Of course, imo, that red flag is nothing compared to the *ginormous* red flag of the seller wanting the full purchase price up front. That in and of itself would be enough for me to run in the opposite direction.

Thank you Monica.

If the dealer is using the Ebay system but wants to cheat them out of their commission he is unethical and will probably cheat you as well. You will have absolutely no recourse since you would be a party to the deception.

Do yourself a huge favor and take a pass on this.

There are many used pianos out there. As long as you're forced to do a long distance deal why don't you contact Rick Jones Pianos. He seems to get a lot of good press on this forum and appears to have a stellar reputation.

http://rickjonespianos.com/homebody.htm

I'm sure I would not agree with me if what you suggest is what I had posted. My response to the OP was that paying full price up front sight unseen left his interests unprotected and that he should not do it. My advice was quite clear. He has to look out for himself.

However, I cannot get worked up about a dealer listing a piano on eBay and then selling it privately in a store transaction. I know many dealerships that float eBay listings (not risky auctions) for the exposure. The folks that own those businesses are not dishonest. EBay for its part does not prevent retailers from listing their business, its address, and its telephone number in the listing. It also allows vendors to state in the listing that the merchandise might become unavailable if sold through another channel. EBay is interested in a steady revenue stream. Something is better than nothing.

If eBay permits the practice and retailers take advantage of it, that's simply the reality of the marketplace. If someone has her/his private scruples about it, then (s)he can avoid it.

I suppose that a retailer who lists his used inventory on eBay could place little signs on each used piano in the showroom that state "Sorry, this piano may only be purchased by eBay members", but if some retailer were to do that, there would be no reason for him to deal used pianos from a showroom at all.

The bottom line is that you feel the buyer should not complete the transaction in the way suggested to him. I feel the same way, as does everyone else who has replied. However, I would never rule out a retailer or accuse him of dishonesty because he uses eBay for exposure.

I recently took a real leap of faith and purchased a Kawai KG-3 based on pictures and conversation with the dealer. In fact I traded a 25 year old Kohler that he accepted based on my pictures and conversation. The Kawai had been pretty much rebuild and my total outlay was $5000 cash plus the Kohler in trade. I love the piano and it all worked out for me, but I had no illusions that it was not a risk. Anyway, the terms were that I gave the delivery person a check on delivery. No cash changed hands until I actually had the piano in my home. Probably not the normal way to do it, but we both trusted the other person.

You should be nervous about that!



He would not want to bother with that, because? it would complicate ripping you off.



With just the two things listed above. There is plenty to be concerned about! If however you can afford to lose nine grand go for it.

Hello again, Ken Elias,

I was just curious whether or not you ever PM'd Steve Cohen to get a recommendation (or not) on the eBay dealer in question?

I was just thinking, when someone pays thousands of dollars for a piano, (sight unseen or not) there has to be some trust in there somewhere, on both sides of the equation.

Of the pianos I’ve purchased, I not only looked at and played the pianos, but I met the sellers and got a feel for what kind of people they were. At that point, I built a certain level of trust toward them, and they with me.

I hope it works out for you, what ever you decide to do.

Rick

"...I had no illusions that it was not a risk. Anyway, the terms were that I gave the delivery person a check on delivery. No cash changed hands until I actually had the piano in my home. Probably not the normal way to do it..."

Glad it worked out for you, ERN.

Paying the remaining balance-in-full on delivery is not unusual, as far as I can make out from statements posted here by store reps, and by people who have bought used pianos at a distance, which would have made payment in-person inconvenient. It was also my personal experience when dealing locally: I paid a deposit to reserve, then the balance the day of shipment (or about then; it might have been the day before).

Unless you finance your purchase through the store, I believe vendors want to be paid before or upon delivery.

"...Aren't the scams mostly craigslist type things, not real live dealers? Perhaps this is nothing to be concerned about..."

Oh, no. Indeed you should be concerned! It might not necessarily be a scam or a fraudulent representation of the merchandise (though it can and has happened), but it IS something to be concerned about, that you exercise your personal responsibility to look out for your own interests.

You should read the sales contract, and make sure it says on paper what you have discussed with the vendor. That should include the make, model, serial number, sale price, sales tax, delivery, payment and other terms (included tunings, for example). Any deposit or other payment should be properly receipted. That is minimal, and should all be correct and in order. If you are asked to tender, or accept as tender (if you are selling) anything other than the exact amount of the sale, run don't walk! That is a serious danger sign of a real scam.

The contract may also include the piano's date of manufacture, an inspection report mentioning any repairs, and (if it's a store) a store warranty--- which will have its own terms, and which you should understand. You may very well need to ask questions until you do understand what is warranted, what is excluded from the warranty, and what your recourse is, should it prove unsatisfactory. The language is often opaque, and uses terms with special legal meanings--- for a sales contract is a legal document.

Setting right any trouble with a sale is not an easy matter. You should head off trouble by looking out for yourself all the way along. There are plenty of sad and angry letters about it on this site, if you care to look into it. Misunderstandings can be as hurtful and aggravating (almost) as actual fraud. So, being sure that you have a clearly-understood agreement, spelled out on that piece of paper, is one big way you can protect your experience. Though of course, every problem cannot be foreseen.

"...Many folks on here suggest that you should always play the instrument you intend to buy. It's hard to do that from the Central Valley of California, where pianos are few and far between..."

I have not shopped there personally, but I have 'heard' people here speak of at least one very fine piano store in Sacramento--- maybe more--- and possibly, in Fresno. And you could take your pick of quite a few in San Jose and the Bay Area, or the ones in L.A. You only have to deliver yourself to the store; they all deliver, and if you're trading up they will also take away the old piano.

What, can't you come up, do a little piano shopping, have dinner, go to a concert? It could be fun. Miss the traffic both ways.

A direct cut and paste from eBay's policy:

We don't allow our members to use eBay to contact each other to make offers to buy or sell items outside of eBay. Also, members can't use information obtained from eBay to contact each other about buying or selling outside of eBay.

If you receive an offer to buy or sell outside eBay, please report it.

Link to Policy

The situation the OP describes seems really shady to me. Maybe some dealers are willing to risk their reputation for the "free" advertising, but it is certainly not honest. I checked out the $9K Kawai ad, and it clearly stated the purchase would be protected by the eBay Buyer Protection Program. Truth in advertising? How can a retailer stand behind that?

I’ve always been one to want to abide by the rules of any organization I’m involved with. I’m thinking there is a concept called “the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law”.

As I stated in this thread, I initially saw both pre-owned grand pianos I’ve owned advertized at auction on eBay. I did not bid on either, and neither did anyone else. In both instances, the auction ended without any bids, period. I did obtain contact information for the sellers through the eBay listing. It just so happened that I was not able to go look at the pianos in person before the auction ended. Neither seller re-listed the piano on eBay before I made them an offer.

Ironically, I paid more than starting bid for the Tokai Grand because the seller said he wanted more than the starting bid for the piano (and I did not know any better at the time). Had I bid on it on eBay, I would have save a few hundred dollars.

As far as the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law, I do not think I violated any of eBay’s rules because the auction had ended and the items were not relisted. I did, however, obtain the contact information through the eBay listing. And, I’m sure this kind of thing happens frequently on eBay with big ticket items. I’m thinking eBay’s policies are meant for auctions that are active.

Oh yea, one more thing, I do not think any ads or auctions on eBay are free.

Rick

Rick,

No need to question yourself. Neither eBay nor Escrow.com is a consumer protection agency. Both sell a service based on getting a slice of the sale proceeds.

It is the buyer's call to determine whether an offered deal is acceptable, just as it is a seller's call to decide whether a lowball offer should be taken seriously. Valuation of used pianos is tricky enough when the piano is in hand. Those who can decide from a distance that a retailer is dishonest and intent on ripping you off have a special 'talent'.

There really should be a forum for moral outrage so that this 'talent' can be exercised and shared in a moral vacuum unfettered by facts or context.

Rick, the situation you describe sounds fine to me. Once an auction ends, the agreement between the seller and eBay has also ended.

You are right that there is a small fee. It is free for the first 50 auctions per month, and $2 for each ad after that. eBay makes its money on the sale, which is 9% with a maximum of $250. Pretty steep, but they also do have a "classified" option which does not have any final value fee and allows the transaction to occur outside eBay. These ads are more, about $10.

However, the seller in question chose to list his ad as an auction (likely for free unless he had 50 pianos for sale) rather than paying for a classified ad, and then requested seller pay him outside of eBay.

And does the buyer know if the ad was an auction or a classified ad? I certainly didn't know. And, like Rick, I bought after the listing had ended. I had monitored the eBay listing, and the agent's listings on his own site, for some time before purchase.

I only see one Kawai RX2 offered at $9K for sale on eBay right now, and it is an auction. Maybe the OP was looking at a different ad. I just assumed.

Sorry for the 'moral outrage'. Just commenting on what others have also stated was a red flag. I think if the buyer wanted to complete the transaction through eBay, the seller should have complied. If the fee really were a big deal, he should have listed it for $9250 and everyone can go home happy.

By the way, I also get irritated when I see retailers who require a minimum charge for using a credit card, also in violation of the terms of service of the credit card companies. Maybe I should stop worrying about these things.

I didn't see any moral outrage, just correcting your post that implied that the seller was operating within the rules of eBay, which was not the case.