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#1948742 - 08/24/12 09:51 PM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: Jeff Clef]
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/27/09
Posts: 1607
Loc: California
Good points Jeff. By the way, here's a picture of Chopin's piano.

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#1949209 - 08/26/12 03:12 AM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: 1RC]
Teodor Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/16/09
Posts: 944
Loc: Bulgaria
Originally Posted By: 1RC
Originally Posted By: Playagain
Do you play for anyone, or do you practice that much just for your own pleasure? I just wondered because sometimes I don't know why I'm working so hard but I keep wanting to get more skill, more technique, and more musical, but it's not easy for me to play in front of others, except very close family. My husband has said that I'm putting so much pressure on myself, but I think that's just the way I am when I want to learn anything. Having lessons helps me focus, too, and pushes me to work harder.


Performing in some capacity is important to me. I think most people find music intrinsically rewarding, but I don't feel complete until there's also the extrinsic goal of sharing it with other ears. It's a social urge.


I am the other way around I prefer playing for other people not my closest family. My family already listens to me practice every day and is not very impressed by anything smile
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#1949248 - 08/26/12 07:02 AM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: Playagain]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Quote:
Originally Posted By: Playagain

Do you play for anyone, or do you practice that much just for your own pleasure? I just wondered because sometimes I don't know why I'm working so hard

I ask myself the same question quite often. I don't know why I work so hard either, except for my own satisfaction. Lord knows, I'm never going to make a living at it or anything close. Only my own family- a husband and a grown daughter still at home- hears me and I rarely get any kind of feedback. Awhile back I overheard my daughter tell her current boyfriend, that "no, she's not bad" in referece to my playing which chuffed me up no end even though it was said in the context of a whine about all the repetitious practice she has to hear. One gets one's strokes when one can.
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#1949249 - 08/26/12 07:20 AM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: Jeff Clef]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Originally Posted By: Jeff Clef
Chopin loved his little Pleyel upright, and I like to think he would be happy to see you attempting his Etudes on yours--- happier than he would be to see you wait until you were deserving enough to have a go at them. His life story makes a good case for not waiting too long.


With all due respect, Chopin liked the big Pleyel grands he leased better, though he had nothing at all against small upright (cottage) pianos or pianinos as he called them. He was utterly miserable with the rented, shot to heck instrument he first rented on Majorca and he'd probably have felt something lacking in an electric had he ever met one. My point being get the best instrument you can comfortably afford (there's nothing like financial anxiety to embitter your joy and ruin your concentration) and enjoy it with a clear conscience. Deserving doesn't come into it. A good upright is better than a poor grand. A serviceable piano of any sort is better than an poorly maintained, unreliable one. Just about any serviceable acoustic is better for your long run musicianship than an electric.
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Slow down and do it right.

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#1949343 - 08/26/12 12:36 PM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: -Frycek]
Playagain Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 239
HI, Frycek,
When I was telling my husband recently that I really needed to get a better piano and trade in my 30-year-old console, he said, "It's not like you're a professional or anything, or make any money at it, or play for anyone." Other times, he's told people he enjoys hearing me play, though (a few times). We did buy a new Yamaha T-118, which was a huge upgrade from what I had. smile

My young grandkids are interested, though, and I'm hoping to help them learn soon, and I have one brother who plays the clarinet who is interested in what I play. Otherwise, I play only for myself, which is the majority of the time. It does seem kind of crazy sometimes.

Thanks for responding! It's interesting to know others work so hard and play for themselves.
Kathy
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#1949345 - 08/26/12 12:38 PM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: Teodor]
Playagain Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 239
HI, Teodor,
Wow, you've been in a lot of recitals! That is wonderful. Maybe your family is just used to how well you play! smile
Kathy
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#1949529 - 08/26/12 07:10 PM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: -Frycek]
aTallGuyNH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/22/12
Posts: 500
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
I think any practice is better than no practice and daily practice of whatever duration is much more effective than sporadic practice. I'm afraid I'm one of those three or more hour a day serious amateurs. I didn't start out that way. I learned as a kid, practically lived on the bench as a teenager, then lived a piano deprived life from my 20's to my 40's. About fifteen years ago after my mother, in the process of redecorating her living room, finally relinquished my piano supposedly so that my daughter could take lessons - anyone else see the irony of that? The kid didn't take to it. The piano languished unplayed in my living room for years. Then my husband (the trumpet player) decided he wanted to learn to play and had it tuned. His interest waned after about a week, but I sat my very rusty self down the following October planning to make myself practice thirty minutes a day so I could play a few carols by Christmas. That was the innocent beginning of my readdiction. Soon I'd graduated to the hard stuff, Chopin and Bach and other reprobates. I tend to have two practice sessions, one very early in the morning (I keep milkman hours) before I go to work and I usually get in 1 1/2 - 2 hours spread out over about three hours. Then I have another session in the evening, usually after I've taken a bit of a nap (I get home around five) That would be another 1 - 2 hours spread over about three hours. I make myself a weekly schedule (schedule highly recommended) and try to adhere to it. That way I manage to keep my "repetoire" up and still work on new pieces. There are some pieces I work on every single day but for no more than 15 minutes at the time. Some I work on for 20 minutes a couple of times a weeks. I try to give new pieces and long pieces that I'm trying to polish get about 40 minutes every day.


So envious of the time you have available... I could do the same... if I got a divorce :-)
_________________________
"...when you do practice properly, it seems to take no time at all. Just do it right five times or so, and then stop." -- JimF

Working on: my aversion to practicing in front of my wife

1978 Vose & Sons spinet "Rufus"
1914 Huntington upright "Mabel"

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#1949535 - 08/26/12 07:25 PM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: Playagain]
aTallGuyNH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/22/12
Posts: 500
Originally Posted By: Playagain
HI, Frycek,
When I was telling my husband recently that I really needed to get a better piano and trade in my 30-year-old console, he said, "It's not like you're a professional or anything, or make any money at it, or play for anyone."


You might want to have him try that on for size the next time he wants a new whatchamajig for his favorite pastime... "You don't need a new [bandsaw, bike, boat, fill-in-the-blank] honey, it's just for you after all" :-)

Glad to hear you got the piano in the end despite the comment!
_________________________
"...when you do practice properly, it seems to take no time at all. Just do it right five times or so, and then stop." -- JimF

Working on: my aversion to practicing in front of my wife

1978 Vose & Sons spinet "Rufus"
1914 Huntington upright "Mabel"

XXIX-XXXII

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#1949560 - 08/26/12 08:56 PM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
Originally Posted By: aTallGuyNH
So envious of the time you have available... I could do the same... if I got a divorce :-)


Happily married for thirty years, I do my thing, he does his. That's the secret.
_________________________
Slow down and do it right.

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#1949567 - 08/26/12 09:31 PM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: Playagain]
1RC Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 497
Loc: Alberta
Originally Posted By: Playagain
Thanks, 1RC,
I wonder if I'll ever get to that point. It would be nice to feel more confident to play in front of others and share music.
Kathy


That's the catch-22 of it, where will you get the confidence from?

After spending many years playing mostly on my own, with maybe an average of 3 'performances' per year, it seemed to me that being able to perform was yet another skill to be developed. On my own it's more like a personal exploration; if there's hestations, mistakes or everything doesn't quite fit together that's fine because I can sort of patch it into the ideal in my head. Having one chance to make this ideal actually come across (more or less) brings me to a higher level of focus.

Learning how to get over mistakes was a big part of it, which was learned by making them and surviving. That whole notion of gracefully recovering from mistakes also seems to come from making A LOT of mistakes (experiencing that it doesn't have to stop the music makes them seem far less significant).

Maybe not to the family members who've already the piece a thousand times in pieces, hahah! but even just having some company over can be a chance to put the piano to use. Even a worst case scenario is just the chance to see that the worst case scenario won't kill you. heh.

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#1949574 - 08/26/12 10:01 PM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: aTallGuyNH]
Playagain Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 239
HAHA! I know--and that was after he traded in his motorcycle and bought a new one! I'm glad I got one, too!!! smile
Kathy
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#1949604 - 08/26/12 11:45 PM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: 1RC]
Playagain Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 239
HI, IRC,
You have a really good way of looking at it! I think you're right--it is another skill to be developed because it's different from playing for yourself because it takes so much more concentration when you have more distractions.

I've been really working on concentrating more on the music (being less distracted) when playing for my teacher, and my playing just in front of her has improved, so maybe there's hope! smile I told her I have to stop saying, "Oops!" every time I make a mistake, though! I need to work on playing through the mistakes!

Yes, I think it's a good idea to realize that it won't kill me! I think that I'm feeling a little more confident with my pieces and that will help, too. My teacher chose pieces that were pretty difficult for me, so I never felt that I could play them that well, but I think I'm finally catching up to the pieces. YAY! smile

Thanks so much for your help!
Kathy
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#1949882 - 08/27/12 03:08 PM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: Playagain]
BBM Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/29/11
Posts: 30
Loc: USA

My husband gently and lovingly did the simple math. If practice one hour a day everyday of the year, I’ll be at the young age of 64 to get to the 10,000 hour mark 
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#1949910 - 08/27/12 03:54 PM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: BBM]
Playagain Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 239
It seems like forever when you look at it that way if you're just starting. That's funny your husband figured it out.

It would be neat if you (or anyone) could document your 10,000 hours and did youtube videos to show progress and then when you are at the young age of 64, you could play and video your pieces and see how far you came after 10,000 hours. smile

I roughly just figured that I probably have around 4000 hours so far from the past and now, but it's hard to remember how much I practiced when I was a kid and young adult, and I'm sure it wasn't careful practicing. smile

Kathy
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#1950003 - 08/27/12 06:46 PM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: BBM]
1RC Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/06
Posts: 497
Loc: Alberta
Treating your lessons as performances is a great idea Kathy! A former teacher used to call it apologizing when we'd say oops or make a face, in a way announcing it. He'd say something like "quit apologizing for your mistakes and get on with the music!", hahah.

If I can offer one more suggestion, it would be that if you decide to prepare some music to perform for whatever occasion to choose pieces you've learned a while ago. They will be easier to play than the newer challenge pieces, your fingers will fall back into place after some review, it'll feel more secure and more likely give an enjoyable, confidence-building outcome. It was always much smoother sailing when I dusted off older pieces than feeling like a tightrope walk with the challenge pieces.

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#1950043 - 08/27/12 08:40 PM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: 1RC]
Playagain Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 239
Thanks, 1RC! Yes, I love the suggestions! smile
That's funny--I'll have to quit apologizing for my mistakes! I'm going to try that!

I will keep that in mind to play something that I've learned awhile ago. I'm sure it helps build confidence to play better, and so that sounds like a very good idea!

Thanks so much! It is all very helpful!
Kathy
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#1950069 - 08/27/12 10:01 PM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: BBM]
Brian Lucas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 951
Originally Posted By: BBM

My husband gently and lovingly did the simple math. If practice one hour a day everyday of the year, I’ll be at the young age of 64 to get to the 10,000 hour mark 
You'll be 64 either way, with or without the piano knowledge. wink

Personally, I understand the 10,000 hour theory, but I don't think learning is quite that linear. Some people have natural abilities and can pick up on things easier. Some things take a while to fully get a good grasp on the skills. I believe that playing piano as a concept isn't all that hard. The fundamentals are basic. Application of the knowledge is where the hours of practice come in. And some of those things are easier than others. I prefer to think in 6 month and year long goals. If you can see progress, that's all that matters.
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BM in Performance, Berklee College of Music, 21+ year teacher and touring musician
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#1950222 - 08/28/12 05:57 AM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: BBM]
-Frycek Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/05
Posts: 5921
Loc: SC Mountains
It all depends on the person, the latent ability and the quality of the practice and training. I'm pretty sure I've got the 10,000 hours, or close to it and I'm far from an expert, but I can pretty much play the pieces I want to play after my fashion.
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Slow down and do it right.

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#1951060 - 08/29/12 05:21 PM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: BBM]
eNOTEquest Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/12
Posts: 41
I think that the 10,000 hour rule is horribly misleading.

Practice consciously and you'll be awarded over time. If you expect to be expert after 10,000 hours...you may be disappointed. You can't measure expertise on a personal level. There are pieces I have played that I feel like an expert on simply because I have an intimate connection to them and I play them with a very articulate dynamic sensibility. That's expertise enough for me, even if they may not be the "best" interpretations according to music examination standards (although some have gained strong recognition).

You are an expert at what you do well, according to your own effort put into something. Perhaps you may not be "advanced" according to society, but everything is relative. Keep working at what you are good at and you will be rewarded.

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#1951069 - 08/29/12 05:28 PM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: eNOTEquest]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5286
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: eNOTEquest
I think that the 10,000 hour rule is horribly misleading.

In what way?
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#1951079 - 08/29/12 05:41 PM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: Derulux]
eNOTEquest Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/12
Posts: 41
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: eNOTEquest
I think that the 10,000 hour rule is horribly misleading.

In what way?


Practicing for 10,000 hours is no guarantee that you'll become an advanced player. I'm weary of any "rule" that suggests expertise can be acquired by simply logging in hours, when in many cases the person logging the hours may be doing any number of things incorrectly and not learning (at least not in a way that will produce result recognized by society). They may practice without a teacher and use poor fingerings that actually run them into trouble down the road.

Without doubt, many keen new students hearing of the rule will expect from the get go that they will reach the 10,000 mark and then get discouraged when they don't even make it to 10, leading them to give up early on. It's better to avoid the figure "10,000" and simply say that becoming an advanced player takes lots of time and hard work.

As a diligent learner, you can undoubtedly reach a recognized level of expertise earlier than the 10,000 hours. At the best 10,000 is a good benchmark for some form of a achievement, at worst it misleads the student to passively logging the hours will get them there.

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#1951187 - 08/29/12 09:23 PM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: eNOTEquest]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5286
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: eNOTEquest
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: eNOTEquest
I think that the 10,000 hour rule is horribly misleading.

In what way?


Practicing for 10,000 hours is no guarantee that you'll become an advanced player. I'm weary of any "rule" that suggests expertise can be acquired by simply logging in hours, when in many cases the person logging the hours may be doing any number of things incorrectly and not learning (at least not in a way that will produce result recognized by society). They may practice without a teacher and use poor fingerings that actually run them into trouble down the road.

Without doubt, many keen new students hearing of the rule will expect from the get go that they will reach the 10,000 mark and then get discouraged when they don't even make it to 10, leading them to give up early on. It's better to avoid the figure "10,000" and simply say that becoming an advanced player takes lots of time and hard work.

As a diligent learner, you can undoubtedly reach a recognized level of expertise earlier than the 10,000 hours. At the best 10,000 is a good benchmark for some form of a achievement, at worst it misleads the student to passively logging the hours will get them there.

Thanks for the reply! smile

This is the most common response to the 10k rule that I hear. I am certainly no expert on it, but I think it presupposes an argument that is not relevant to the 10k rule discussion.

The 10k rule, so far as I understand it, supposes that it will take a minimum of 10k hours, assuming that the student does everything correctly, to achieve "success" (the term actually used in the book). I think that the notion that a student will not invest the time or the energy to do something correctly or consciously ("passively") negates the 10k hour rule, since I believe the rule supposes that the individual actually wants to achieve this thing, and will do whatever is necessary to achieve it. I also do not believe the 10k rule guarantees success, only that those who find that success have, generally, amassed the "required" 10k hours.

To pull out one line and address it more directly:
Quote:
It's better to avoid the figure "10,000" and simply say that becoming an advanced player takes lots of time and hard work.

I think this is, relatively, semantics. At 2 hours per day, 5 days per week, it would take someone 19.23 years to reach the 10k hours mark. That's a lot of hard work and time. wink
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#1951207 - 08/29/12 10:03 PM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: BBM]
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3158
I have not read every post on this thread, so this may be redundant, and is an extrapolation of my earlier post.

The 10K hours thing is bogus IMHO, one reason because it has attached to it a lot of ifs, ands, and buts.

First, the whole thing is based upon the assumption that "Practice makes perfect"; Thus, 10K hours of this thing called "practice" will allegedly yield (perfect) an "advanced player".

The problem is that any old practice does NOT make perfect. Instead, what practice does is make permanent whatever was practiced.

Thus, if one is practicing incorrectly, what will be made permanent is those practiced-in errors, limitations, dead-ends, etc.

The truth version of that quote is this: Perfect practice makes perfect.

Therefore, learning how to practice correctly, as it relates to how you as an individual person learns, is absolutely key to the goal of becoming an "advanced player" at any age, with any amount of time spent "practicing".

Also, there is the question of talent. Some claim that talent does not factor in here, that we are just programmable blobs of whatever, but I can tell you as a teacher that talent factors in big time.

I am not going to get into the talent thing very far, as it has been thrashed about here over and over. But simply put, years or teaching and playing music professionally has shown me without any doubt that some people learn to play quite quickly, others not so fast, others very slowly, and a few very very very slowly.

So, because you can't change your talent, if you want to become an advanced player (at any age), the thing to do is learn how to practice correctly.

The proven best way to accomplish that goal is to find and study with good/great teacher. If you truly are serious, enough so that you are willing to put in the 10K or whatever hours, a teacher should be at the top of your priority list. A good teacher will guide you in the best way to learn, help you to avoid dead-ends, and basically facilitate and ease the whole thing much better that you can alone.
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#1951239 - 08/29/12 11:28 PM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: -Frycek]
FarmGirl Online   content

Silver Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 09/14/10
Posts: 1905
Loc: Scottsdale, AZ
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
Originally Posted By: aTallGuyNH
So envious of the time you have available... I could do the same... if I got a divorce :-)


Happily married for thirty years, I do my thing, he does his. That's the secret.


Hmmm. It's hard to practice and hard to pick time to record. He's a nice guy but TV watching is what he wants to do in his spare time. He watch TV while I practice and we get louder and louder .. Throw in some loud noises from my dog's squeaky toys.. Ah my blissful home life. I am gonna create a sound proof music room someday.
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Solo - Liszt Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2, Schubert Sonata D960 Andante sostenute (9/7/14), Bach f minor Fugue WTC Bk1, Rachmaninoff Elegie Op 3 #1, Chopin Trois Nouvelles Etudes #1



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#1951246 - 08/29/12 11:46 PM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: BBM]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1716
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
I don't know when or if I'll ever be an "advanced" player, and I doubt I would ever call myself that no matter what. It means a lot to me, though, to be able to say I'm continually advancing.
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"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

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#1951266 - 08/30/12 12:14 AM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: rocket88]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5286
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: rocket88
I have not read every post on this thread, so this may be redundant.

Never fear, it is. laugh
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#1951386 - 08/30/12 07:34 AM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: Derulux]
Rerun Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 583
Loc: Louisiana
Originally Posted By: Derulux
Originally Posted By: -Frycek
I wonder if we scared him off - - -

LOL laugh

If not, this might..

It is quite possible. Age is not a barrier. Time is. Sounds like I'm contradicting myself, but I'm not. I've read that it takes approximately 10,000 hours of dedicated study to become a "master" at something. So, at one hour a day, that's 10,000 days or about 27.5 years. Someone who begins at 30 and expects to be an expert by 31 is most assuredly not going to make it.. but by no means is it impossible to eventually reach your goal. It just depends on how much time you have available to dedicate towards that goal.



.... but it doesn't take that many hours for your listeners to think you play pretty darn good.


Edited by Rerun (08/30/12 07:35 AM)
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"Seat of the pants piano player" DMD







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#1951450 - 08/30/12 10:44 AM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: Derulux]
eNOTEquest Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/12
Posts: 41
Originally Posted By: Derulux

Quote:
It's better to avoid the figure "10,000" and simply say that becoming an advanced player takes lots of time and hard work.

I think this is, relatively, semantics. At 2 hours per day, 5 days per week, it would take someone 19.23 years to reach the 10k hours mark. That's a lot of hard work and time. wink


I agree with most of what you say. I suppose you could say that someone who uses that formula is likely or almost guaranteed to reach success on an advanced level.

However my concern is the reaction to it as illustrated in my above post. I think one should be aware of the 10,000 h/d rule, but take it with a grain of salt. 20 years is a long time, and it can be almost discouraging for younger players to think that they'll have to "wait that long" to become an advanced player.

Yes, it is about the journey, but the destination is fun too. I would like most players to be aware that the 10,000 is at least somewhat flexible.

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#1951452 - 08/30/12 10:53 AM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: BBM]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I think the reason the 10,000 hour rule is bogus is because it is being misinterpreted. Gladwell has a whole chapter on it in his book 'Outliers'. I believe he came up with that concept.

The rule was not that "if you do something for 10,000 hours, you become advanced".

The advice given here is probably better than the made up rule. Enjoy yourself, practice the right stuff, with the right teacher, etc... Then, good luck defining advanced. It's more something that you can define for yourself. One day you say "Hey, I'm pretty advanced aren't I?"

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#1951466 - 08/30/12 11:14 AM Re: Is it possible to become an advance player at 30s? [Re: knotty]
eNOTEquest Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/12/12
Posts: 41
Originally Posted By: knotty
I think the reason the 10,000 hour rule is bogus is because it is being misinterpreted. Gladwell has a whole chapter on it in his book 'Outliers'. I believe he came up with that concept.

The rule was not that "if you do something for 10,000 hours, you become advanced".

The advice given here is probably better than the made up rule. Enjoy yourself, practice the right stuff, with the right teacher, etc... Then, good luck defining advanced. It's more something that you can define for yourself. One day you say "Hey, I'm pretty advanced aren't I?"



YES.

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