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Major to minor with the same root is a common enough device. It suggests nothing to me more than a modulation to minor.

Yes, with a bit more reading I came to the same conclusion. The second half of bar 3 is a bII6 or Neapolitan chord. According to Wikipedia, bII6 chords "prepare the dominant" and have an "immediately recognizable and poignant sound".



These sorts of details really help me to understand the construction of the music. I could see that the bII6 chord was setting up for the dominant, but I couldn't really understand how. Reading about Neapolitan chords helped me understand the similarity to the F# (ie, subdominant) here and how that similarity allows the Neapolitan to prepare for the dominant.


I know it's the melody, but it sounds like a lamentation to me; I'm just being silly and poetic.



I agree and think you've explained it quite well.

Nor a suspended 2nd, but that's why you have to check it out with the rest of the notes. I haven't worked with music that has enough suspended 2nds and 4ths (nor extended chords) for my seventh chord shortcut to become a liability yet.

Regarding m.4 and the alla breve time signature: why couldn't you have two different chords in one beat?

Wow, it seems the thread grew quite a bit while I was composing my post. Welcome aboard, PianoStudent88! It seems like we've got a pretty good group with a range of experience working on this now. Fantastic!



Thanks for the excellent summary! I'm planning to print out a copy of the score tomorrow and jot down the Roman numerals & modulation as far as we've gotten. I think it will be much easier to work from that and to see the progressions.

I'm really enjoying this thread and looking forward to taking a stab at the next few measures tomorrow. (No work, yay!)

I suspect Alfred's missed off the bass clef in the middle of m.65 or someone overlooked it!


You could - but think about it - it's a passing chord! We only count the chords on the beats.


Fear not, the arrival of a certain someone has put paid to any details going under the carpet!


Well done for getting this independently. I feel so ashamed for having missed that. I'm hoping there's a German sixth or something further on so that I can redeem myself!

We should all be silly and poetic more often. Don't stop.

As this should really have been your thread and I have been riding roughshod all over it, would you like to continue from bar/measure 11?

Edit: Oh, I see you've already taken that up! I'll pop off to bed then and pick up tomorrow.

I'm interested in the ambiguity because I'm interested in what this sounds like. Well, theoretically what it sounds like to someone who has cleverer ears than mine.

As an example of clever ears, I imagine that someone with good aural skills heard the very first measure, and hears the doubled bass note as the root of the triplet minor triad above it, and immediately senses that this is the tonic of the piece, and that it's in a minor key. Then as the piece progresses they sense things like "At the tonic. Far away from the tonic. Returning to the tonic." and so on. So in this idealized image I have of what someone with clever ears hears while listening to this piece, I wonder if they hear m.4 as "dominant 7, next measure will probably be tonic.". Or do they hear m.4 as "dominant 7, no wait here's some tonic sliding in, no wait, here's something that makes me think tonic and dominant at the same time, no, wait, here it is again, a nice clear dominant 7, and finally! m. 5 the clear root position tonic I was waiting for."

I can't really hear any of this; I think I mostly just hear notes going up and down with an occasional sense of something out of the ordinary, but I'm always curious about the experience for people who can make more sense out of what they hear.

Upon careful inspection, Alfred's is blameless, so my only recourse is to give thanks that in a verbal medium you can't see me blushing from here to next Saturday!

This is fascinating!

Yes, the first chord sounds like the tonic as long as it is a simple triad and as long as something further along doesn't change your mind.

I think a lot of the problem may be that we hear so much colour these days. It won't be easy to discern tonality unless you work specifically for these aural skills. Schubert was aware that even in his day the listening public was blissfully unaware of key and he began his recapitulation in the sub-dominant so that he didn't have to change the bridge passage for the second subject and still finish in tonic.

I suggest you find a quiet space to listen to baroque for a solid month or so and reduce your time with more modern music significantly while you work with a more confined palette. Start with the contemporaries or predecessors of Bach and stick with Binary form until you can pick out the change to dominant in the first half and the change from sub-dominant to tonic in the second half. Don't worry too much about the modulations at the start of the second half. They'll take time. Gradually working through the time periods up to Tchaikovsky and Mahler will allow the extra colour to come much more enjoyably and appreciatively.


I honestly believe that that this is so simple (specifically dominant seventh implying tonic). Other modulations take very concentrated listening. But have a listen to Beethoven's seventh symphony and enjoy that build up and feel the relief when that heart rending little melody appears and finally announces the tonic.

You should start to expect the tonic as it approaches the one minute mark but it doesn't get there, and several times you'll find yourself expecting it to be just around the corner. But it doesn't come. Then at 4:20 - will someone please pass me the tissues!



Greener, this is one of the portraits that make Beethoven look mean to some and intense to me.

That sounds like it would be quite beneficial. My ear isn't well developed at all and I'd really like to do something about that; starting with a diet of a reduced palette might be just the thing!

Getting back to the piece: measure 11 is Gmin7 (iii7) and meausre 12 starts with C (VI) then has E (I)...and then I get confused. Is that an A#min-5 starting the second half? I think I've worked out measures 13-15 (the modulation to B), but I can't quite follow the end of measure 12 so I'd like to clear that up before moving on. The A# could be leading us into the dominant (and subsequent modulation), but I don't really feel like I understand what's happening.

The melody line is playing a G natural, which is in keeping with the key change to E minor.

m.12: I get one chord for each half-beat: C, Em/B (not E major: remember the G is still natural), A#dim7, F#7. You can see I am keeping with the half-beats and staunchly resisting the idea of passing chords, much less leaving them out.

The notes A#, C# and F# in the second half of measure 12 suggest the key of B minor. In this key, A#dim7, F#7 are VIIdim7, V7. And, sure enough, m. 13 starts with Bm.

[ETA: Although the melody line repeats G natural from m. 9 into m. 12, I think that in m. 11, we are no longer in Em due to the F natural. M.11 into m.12 gives a brief tonicization of C with the G7 C progression. So in mm. 8-13 we've been through E major, E minor, C major, B minor. Dizzying. Taking the C as a temporary step, we've moved from E major (or minor, if you prefer, from m. 9) up to the minor dominant B minor.]

My question is: why does Beethoven pass through C major on his way from E minor to B minor?

I've got some "major" catching up to do, will leave you with this joke while I do;

A pianist and singer are rehearsing "Autumn Leaves" for a concert and the pianist says: "OK. We will start in G minor and then on the third bar, modulate to B major and go into 5/4. When you get to the bridge, modulate back down to F# minor and alternate a 4/4 bar with a 7/4 bar. On the last A section go into double time and slowly modulate back to G minor." The singer says: "Wow, I don't think I can remember all of that." The pianist says: "Well, that's what you did last time."

I have my own idea of how the first movement should be played.
Video taped at the NAMM show, in the Estonia Piano Booth.

Starts at approximately 1:14 in this video (the first piece is one I wrote for Kathy, my girlfriend).

Wow!!!!!! Woo Hoo!!!!! That was fantastic Frank. I can't wait until I can play like that.

It will only be Minor catching up if you look Sharp. C you soon.

Liked the joke .

Right, think I've caught up, so in Bar 13, we've got Bm for 2 half beats, then Em6 (ROOT POSITION) for half a beat, then Em6 (1st INV) for the last half beat.

Bar 14: Bm (2nd Inv) for 2 half beats, then F# root position for 2 half beats.

Is it necessary to right it as Bm/F# (2 beats)
F#/F# (2 beats)
if we are including the chord Inversion?

I would name the second half of m.13 as C#m7b5 (actually C#m7b5/E then C#m7b5/G). Same notes as Em6, but naming it as C#m7b5 will emphasize that we're starting off what is essentially a ii-V-i progression as we head for m.15.

I'm probably showing my lack of knowledge here but how does G (natural), B, D (natural) and F (natural) add up to a Gmin7? Isn't it G7?

I'm confused.

You're right, Carol, m. 11 is G7.

I know he's used a cadence to establish E major in 9 but I don't feel E major tonality - he's just not there long enough or anywhere long enough really. I continue to think as being in III for bar 9 and iii in bar 10. Bar 11 is G7 but for me is bV not iii.
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Bar 12 is treacherous so here's a little help for those that might be struggling with this. This is how I analysed bars 12-15. Feel free to bypass this (rather long) post if you're comfortable with what you're doing.

Bar 12
Beat 1: Bass C natural, RH G natural strongly suggesting C major. The next two notes C and E establish C Major on the beat. That's about as far as you can get from the tonic, harmonically, that is, I know it's an adjacent key.

The next triplet includes B adding a dominant 7 colour between the beats then the G and E reinforce the beat chord.

Beat 2: A# in the bass throws me. It's neither in the tonic C# min or C from the last beat. I suspect it is a colouring note rather than the root of the chord. The G (natural) in RH makes a minor third and doesn't sit comfortably with it either suggesting to me that neither note is a root. C# comes next and still leaves my ear unsatisfied as it's another minor third. The last note of the triplet is E. Aha! It's a diminished seventh.

The diminished seventh can take its name from any of the four notes contained in it but mostly from the lowest note, here A#. The notes are all a minor third apart. It is a commonly employed modulation device and resolves inwards...

In the simple diatonic major scale the diminished chord is formed on the seventh step but its dissonant sound doesn't sit well with our ears.

Consonance and dissonance
Consonance occurs when there is a close integral relation between the frequencies of a note and the pattern between the sound waves repeats quickly. An octave is a simple 1:2 ratio and a fifth is 2:3. A major seventh is a fairly dissonant interval in the harmonic series with a ratio of 8:15, that's twenty three peaks before the pattern repeats. In equal temperament the ratio is even more dissonant being in the region of 44:83.

How we choose to control that dissonance with a diminished chord is to add a major third below it to form a dominant seventh. In C major, for example, the triad formed on the seventh step is B, D and F so we add a G below it and create G7. A note on nomenclature here, this is referred to as the dominant seventh of C, V7, or simply a dominant seventh chord on G, G7.

The dominant seventh
The primary chords of a key are formed on the seven steps of the scale by adding two thirds above each note. In a major scale on 1, 4 and 5 we get a major third then a minor third (making a perfect fifth and forming a major chord) while on 2, 3 and 6 we get a minor third then a major third (making a perfect fifth and forming a minor chord). On the seventh step we get two minor thirds (making a diminished fifth and forming a diminished chord). We form the secondary chords by adding yet another third to form the sevenths. On 1 and 4 we get major third, minor third, major third forming a major seventh. On 2, 3 and 6 we get minor third, major third, minor third forming a minor seventh. On 5 we get major third, minor third, minor third. This pattern is unique to the dominant so we call it a dominant seventh.

Back to the music
So, coming back to the chord in question, A#, C#, E, G, if we add a major third below this we get F#9, a dominant minor ninth (a dominant seventh with yet another minor third) which we confidently expect to resolve to B major or B minor.

In this instance, Beethoven adds that very F# in the next triplet, canny devil, and duly resolves to B minor in bar 13.

Bar 13 looks simple enough, two B's and to F#'s to start with, another B and the final triplet not puts it in minor. On the second beat, two E's and a G looks like E minor and the B then reinforces it but the final triplet note, C#, makes E minor sharped sixth. This creates the same dissonant interval between the G and C# (an augmented fourth) that's found in the dominant seventh (E G# B D) between G# and D but the sound is slightly less severe overall. Play a bar of each chord in succession and you'll hear John Lennon and the Beatles' White Album all over again.

Bar 14 starts with three F#'s - I wonder what chord this is going to be? the next two notes determine that it's B minor the same as at the start of bar 14 but here with F# in the base so it's in second inversion. Beat 2 starts with four F#'s and duly adds A# and C# to form F# major closing into Bar 15, B minor on beat 1 and major on beat 2.

This is the end of the third section (1 - 5, 5 - 9 or 10, and 9/10 - 15). Practise these sections as individual pieces until you get them right first go from memory. Before you leave bar 15 to start on section 4, avoid the temptation, as it moves to major, to introduce the next phrase at anything above pianissimo by writing a PP on your score.
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1. Because he can!

2. Tssk! Someone's left that blinking door open again!

3. Beethoven's exercising his compositional muscle and can be relied upon take you home safely at the end. Question not where you're going, just enjoy the emotional journey through the mind of probably the greatest composer who ever lived.