Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Topic Options
#1944889 - 08/18/12 04:54 AM Re: Cheating on Liszt's fingerings [Re: Kuanpiano]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7756
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
There's a distinction between fingerings provided to "aide the performer", and fingerings provided with a distinct musical sound in mind. There's a passage at the end of Rachmaninoff's op.39 no.8 where an arpeggio for the left hand is notated as being played with only the left thumb, suggesting a tenuto sound that's more loudly voiced.

Likewise, Liszt and his 2-4 staccato chromatic thirds are an important musical effect, not just technical.

So what do we have in this case?

Well, the fingering is provided in an etude, indicating that it may have value in reinforcing a technical aspect that Liszt is trying to teach. Or it might be a suggestion for a particularly difficult passage. If you do a bit of research, you might find out that it may not even be Liszt's fingering suggestion anyway.



The fingering is in the first edition, which, AFAIK, was not edited by anyone other than Liszt himself. If anyone has any other information about that, it would be good to know.

As I pointed out earlier, it not merely a "suggestion", because it's actually the only feasible fingering, unless there is a redistribution of the notes in a way that is definitely not indicated by the notation. And, too, the final note of the broken octave figure, the one played with the thumb, is tied so that it very naturally slots into place into what follows. Doing a redistribution and a refingering results in more complexity than playing it as written with the given fingering - more complexity doesn't seem very desirable.

I also don't think that anyone who has the chops to play the etude as a whole should find that following Liszt's instructions is an insurmountable problem.

Quote:


Bottom line is, you'll have to do some thinking and research to understand why that marking is provided there. Part of studying the score involves not just reading the score and memorizing all of the notes, dynamics, tempis and articulation, but questioning the composers intent for each. As an intelligent performer, you'll have to make judgements in order to bring about a performance that adheres the score as reflecting your own personality.


Speaking of studying the score - right before the final stretto this etude, he ups the ante on that particular figure, and writes it so that the ascending part starts an octave lower, which removes a repeated note but adds another octave of displacement - and there's no redistribution possible in playing the ascent. And then he writes in the fingering on the descent once again, as if to emphasize that is really how it is to be played.

Liszt really doesn't provide very much in the way of fingerings in this etude. Or, really, for any of the TEs. Which makes me think that the ones he did provide were of special importance in some way.

Top
(ad) Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1944921 - 08/18/12 07:50 AM Re: Cheating on Liszt's fingerings [Re: evilpacman18]
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
i always thought Lizst's fingerings were brilliant. he always seemed to choose the correct way to play. That said, i couldn't tell you editted my editions. That little particle of sheet music is very much like Chopin's 25/12. a good fingering

he was a fine organist... the organ for some reason really teaches you how to play.

_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

Top
#1945031 - 08/18/12 11:59 AM Re: Cheating on Liszt's fingerings [Re: wr]
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5281
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Derulux
No two people have the exact same anatomy, and what works for one may not work for another.


So there's no point in providing any fingerings, ever, because the people with eight fingers per hand are going to do it quite differently than those with just three. And of course, those who may possess thumbs really should totally ignore what Debussy had to say about his etude that, for most of us, leaves them out of the picture - I mean, what would he know about MY hand.

I am not sure how this would help the argument that you follow every fingering exactly as written. It would seem more to help the opposing viewpoint, despite its witty sarcasm. wink However, I see no reason not to provide a "suggested" fingering. I simply equally see no reason why one "must" follow it.

Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: Derulux

Another good example: just about anyone playing Mazeppa. I see very few performances use the original 42-42 fingering indicated.

Looks to me like it's happening here:

Phew. Good thing I said "just about". wink I could not tell exactly because the camera angle wasn't great for picking out fingering, but based on wrist action you might be right. I had a few gripes with the performance itself, but the piece was still well-played.

Originally Posted By: kuanpiano
There's a distinction between fingerings provided to "aide the performer", and fingerings provided with a distinct musical sound in mind. There's a passage at the end of Rachmaninoff's op.39 no.8 where an arpeggio for the left hand is notated as being played with only the left thumb, suggesting a tenuto sound that's more loudly voiced.

Likewise, Liszt and his 2-4 staccato chromatic thirds are an important musical effect, not just technical.

So what do we have in this case?

Well, the fingering is provided in an etude, indicating that it may have value in reinforcing a technical aspect that Liszt is trying to teach. Or it might be a suggestion for a particularly difficult passage. If you do a bit of research, you might find out that it may not even be Liszt's fingering suggestion anyway.

Bottom line is, you'll have to do some thinking and research to understand why that marking is provided there. Part of studying the score involves not just reading the score and memorizing all of the notes, dynamics, tempis and articulation, but questioning the composers intent for each. As an intelligent performer, you'll have to make judgements in order to bring about a performance that adheres the score as reflecting your own personality.

Great post. Felt I needed to re-share it.
_________________________
Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.

Top
#1945163 - 08/18/12 06:29 PM Re: Cheating on Liszt's fingerings [Re: evilpacman18]
TheCorecase Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 9
I didn't read any of the previous posts, but I don't think you should (or even need to) cheat on the fingering. The fingers written are the most suitable for this part of the piece. These are etudes, aka Studies. They were meant to challenge your natural inclinations or methods of playing the piano. You can play it however you want, no one is stopping you; but if you're interested in improving your technique and challenging yourself a little bit, you should play the piece exactly how it's written. Also, you really don't want to mix the melody with the bass (in this part the RH is playing the melody while the LH is playing bass).

Top
#1945193 - 08/18/12 08:25 PM Re: Cheating on Liszt's fingerings [Re: apple*]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8818
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: apple*

[Liszt] was a fine organist...

I hope it will not be rude of me to correct you (one of my favourite people here), but Liszt had no training on the pedals. There are stories of incredible improvisations (yet actually it was Franck whom he most admired on the organ), but most likely Liszt used the pedal sparingly, generally as 'pedal-point', as piano-organists (to borrow a Gilbertian term) generally do.

The three major Liszt organ works are all masterpieces, but frequently Liszt seems frustrated by the lack of a sustaining pedal on the piano, and ask any organist, the pedal parts are not idiomatic at all. Sometimes -as in the 'Prelude & Fugue on BACH' (one page before the end in the Kalmus edition), the double pedal trills are simply nonsense.
_________________________
Jason

Top
#1945223 - 08/18/12 10:10 PM Re: Cheating on Liszt's fingerings [Re: evilpacman18]
Arabesque Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 548
Loc: Japan
It has a symmetry in the present fingering and that should contribute to the smoothness if played correctly. If you cannot get the smoothness using Liszt's fingering and must use your left hand then do so. But not until you've worked at it - and it is Liszt. If you are playing Liszt you need to work up this octave span technique in exercises and then come back to the score again.
_________________________
It don't mean a ting if it don't have dat swing

Top
#1945485 - 08/19/12 12:23 PM Re: Cheating on Liszt's fingerings [Re: Derulux]
trigalg693 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 560
Originally Posted By: Derulux

Another good example: just about anyone playing Mazeppa. I see very few performances use the original 42-42 fingering indicated.


This is actually the only example I can think of where I think you should follow the fingering given. It makes it 10 times harder to play (develops technique), and it sounds different. Does it sound better? I'm not sure, but the "sounds like a horse galloping" or whatever and "sempre fortissimo con strepito" convinced me that 42-42 is indeed what you want to go for.


Edited by trigalg693 (08/19/12 12:23 PM)

Top
#1961919 - 09/21/12 02:43 AM Re: Cheating on Liszt's fingerings [Re: Kuanpiano]
Michael Glenn Williams Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 113
Loc: Southern California
It's a myth that using a particular fingering is the only way to get a particular sound. SO the idea that the composer's fingerings means they wanted a particular sound is possible, but at the end of the day that is not the only way to get the sound.

Top
#1961983 - 09/21/12 08:37 AM Re: Cheating on Liszt's fingerings [Re: Michael Glenn Williams]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19225
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Michael Glenn Williams
It's a myth that using a particular fingering is the only way to get a particular sound. SO the idea that the composer's fingerings means they wanted a particular sound is possible, but at the end of the day that is not the only way to get the sound.
Certain fingering may not be the only way to get a certain sound, but certain fingerings may facilitate achieving something better than another fingering.

That's why I think that when the composer of some piece was an terrific pianist(as is true for the huge majority of piano music), the composer's distribution of the notes(especially this) and fingering(especially fingering designed to give a certain sound as opposed to fingering given for convenience)should be strongly considered as a first alternative. Not something I made up, but something I've heard observing master classes with excellent teachers.


Edited by pianoloverus (09/21/12 08:46 AM)

Top
#1962042 - 09/21/12 11:43 AM Re: Cheating on Liszt's fingerings [Re: evilpacman18]
Ian_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/07/10
Posts: 164
Loc: Germany
People not using 24 24, z.B., is somewhat irritating to see in the same way that it's somewhat irritating to see a vegetarian eating a tofu and nut hamburger.

Top
#1962749 - 09/22/12 07:02 PM Re: Cheating on Liszt's fingerings [Re: evilpacman18]
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/29/10
Posts: 2623
Loc: Netherlands
well, do as you like, but in more difficult pieces like nr.5 or Chopin's op.10/2 it's suïcide not to follow the composer's fingerings, why not adhere to them here?
_________________________
Longtemps, je me suis couch de bonne heure, but not anymore!

Couperin pices, Ravel tombeau de C

Top
#2016688 - 01/18/13 12:01 PM Re: Cheating on Liszt's fingerings [Re: evilpacman18]
jdott Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/17/13
Posts: 34
Loc: Colorado, USA
The fingering worked for Liszt because his hand span was probably about 6" greater than yours. My teacher, the wonderful Barbara Ryan-Eanes always helped me rework the fingering to suit my hand. If altering it makes it playable for you, that's all that matters.

Top
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
75,000 Members and Growing!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
151 registered (ajames, Abby Pianoman, Alex-SapRenovation, AndresD, 44 invisible), 1598 Guests and 17 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75509 Members
42 Forums
156151 Topics
2293151 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Embedded ads?
by Peyton
26 minutes 25 seconds ago
Who's inspiring you right now?
by Arizona Sage
Today at 08:58 AM
Best way to dispose of an old piano?
by fizikisto
Today at 08:33 AM
Mendelssohn on meaning in music
by phantomFive
Today at 04:08 AM
Youtube! :)
by PianoPlayer98
Today at 02:46 AM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission