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Not to muddy the waters, but I'd like to take a side trip to explore the pesky diminished 7. Like many people, when I learned it, it was presented as a neat stack of four circles on four lines or spaces, which automatically makes it a pile of thirds, and it had the right kinds of accidentals to make them all minor thirds. You recognize it visually, and the skipped letter names make it easy too. But then when I started to analyze music, not all dim7's were written that way. They still sounded right, and the intervals on the keyboard still looked right. The composers had good reasons each time for spelling the dim7 in some other way. I would have liked to know this from the start, because I had to rethink the dim7.

So here's an exploration in a side trip for those who are interested.

Let's explore what an interval is first. It has two aspects: the sound we hear which is also the distance between two notes. A minor third has a particular sound that some people call "sad", and the notes are three half steps apart. If you play C, then go up a half step to the next black key (Cb or D#), then the next white key (D), then the next black key (Eb) then you've traveled three piano keys or three half steps.

The second aspect is the name we give it, and that depends on the letters and where the notes are in your music. If the notes are written as CEb then you have a minor third because 3 letter names are involved. If the notes are written as CD#, then you are pressing the same piano keys, you get the same sound, but this time it's NAMED "augmented 2nd".

So if we have a dim7, we can have Db F Ab Cb. Db to F is a minor third. F to Ab is a minor third. Ab to Cb is a minor third. But sometimes in music we might see what looks like a second rather than a third in the music: Db F Ab B for example --- for whatever reason the composer has. Ab B is an augmented 2nd. It still has the minor third sound. You'll hear the same dim7 sound for the whole chord.

I think the reason they teach it in the books as "stacked thirds" is because it's easier. Then later on when we run into different spellings we're supposed to make the adjustment and expand our definition. So I might stay with the stacked thirds ideas for as long as it works, but be ready to move past it when we encounter something different in the music.

Btw -- another nifty thing about the dim7 is that it always has two tritones, which means it really wants to move and become something else. In C# E G Bb, C#E is a tritone, and so is EBb. The properties of the dim7 makes it a handy chord for moving things around, which is exactly what Beethoven does in the development section. If you have a seven chord (C#7) then right away you expect it to go to a precise place. The dim7 keeps you guessing.

Thank you, keystring, for elucidating that for us.

It's an awkward little chord to get a handle on and it often takes several attempts before the pennies finally drop and we can actually to understand it and how it works.

In the meantime, I believe there's a pygmy tribe in Africa called the Hekawi. I feel like one of them at the moment.

They jump up and down in the long grass and shout "we're the Hekawi".

Have we done up to bar 60 yet?

Yes. Another senior moment.

Yes, done up to 60.

I think all the dim7 chords in this movement have precise spellings and notation in the score that correspond to stacked minor thirds and correspond precisely to where the music goes next. I've got a chorus concert now, so I'll be back later to check all the dim7 chords and see if I'm right about that, and also to talk about the giant circle of fifths progression in mm. 56-58.

If we are still mucking about in meas.58 my thoughts (F#m6) were that it just felt like the F#m6 throughout even though it took a little side trip to what I might have called G#sus4 at the start of beat two, and then returned to F#m6 for the rest of the beat.

Enjoy your concert!

I look forward to you circle of fifths discussion.

In the meantime then shall we crack to the very end? We don't have far to go now.

Analysis summary of bars 51-60

51. C# minor, C# major
52. F#minor 6/C# (or D major 7/C# or) , F# minor (+ aug 4)
53. C# major
54. F#minor 6/C# (or D major 7/C# or) , F# minor (+ aug 4)
55. C# major, F# minor
56. B 7/D#

56. d. E major
57. a. A maj.7/C#
57. b. D# dim (B7 without a root)
57. c. G# 7/B#
57. d. C# minor

58. F# minor 6/A, G# sus 4
59. C# minor/G#, G# 7
60. C# minor
__________________________

The second subject returns now, also with small changes including a wonderful little step pattern from 56 through 57 to the subdominant in 58 (reminiscent of bar 4) and leads gently to the tonic with a sense of closure.

We're to discuss this in a little more detail later.

Yes, they do have spellings in thirds.

I gave additional information because I wished I had known this when I learned about dim7's, and it seemed interesting. If it confuses anyone, just disregard it.

Have been pondering over m63 for a while now. At the bench it has a G#7 feel throughout, but the A's don't fit there unless we call them passing or some kind of extension. Or I guess it could be a B#dim7 over a G# pedal point, but that kind of minimizes the pervasive sound of those G# resonating in the bass. I'm stumped.

You've found it, JimF! The final part of the puzzle.

This is the dominant major ninth. The regular dominant seventh with a ninth on top.

oh,my has the melody moved to the bass?

It has!

61. G#7
62. C#m/G#
63. B#dim7/G#
64. C#/G#
65. B#dim7/G#
66. C#m/G#
67. C#m/G#
68. C#m
69. C#m

Can we say m63 is B#dim7 with G# melody notes in the bass? Now I got myself al twisted up.

Let me settle this now...

The final analysis!
60. C# minor
61. G# 7
62. C# minor
63. G# 7b9 (dominant minor ninth.)
64. C# minor
65. G# 7b9
66 - 69. C# minor
___________________________

Bars 1-4
Beethoven give us four bars to set the pulse and the key for this movement. He begin the inexorable chain of triplets and is at pains to point out that they are two groups of six not four groups of three.

Bars 5-9
We are introduced to the main protagonist. A plaintive melody in C# minor and moving to the relative major.

Bars 10-15
The melody is played again as it moves from E major to E minor and on to B minor, the dominant of E.

Bars 15-23
The second protagonist is introduced and wanders from B minor through a variety of keys winding up in the subdominant. I likened this passage to a second subject and development section combined.

Bars 23-28
The first theme returns in the subdominant, usually implying the end of the development section, and closes in G# major, the dominant.

Bars 28-42
The dominant preparation passage, when there is one, is where the listener is given time to recover from the activity in the development and guided back to the tonic for the recapitulation.

Bars 42-51
The first theme is restated, slighly modified, in the tonic.

Bars 51-60
The second theme is also slightly modified and it too is now in the tonic.

Bars 60-69
The first theme now comes from the bass and the triplets emerge in the pattern we heard in the contral dominant preparation passage.

The coda brings the piece to a satisfactory conclusion and the triplets finally come to a halt.

I've now got it all the same as Jeff. Good Job Jeff ... I hope.

Well, I should have trusted my ear on m63

Richard, Many have contributed to my understanding on this thread, but I really want to thank you for all the time you have put into it. Often threads in ABF descend into the blind leading the blind....or being nicer, we all are groping for wisdom. I feel like you've really provided that wisdom in this thread and appreciate your efforts. So, thanks.

I think you've all done a fabulous job on a very difficult piece of music.
We'll wrap up by discussing bb.56-58 when PianoStudent88 returns and then we can have general Q&A on any of the finer points you're not happy about.

We started this without much idea about how to tackle the problem and without sufficient tools on the box but we've got a team now better versed in chord construction and with the experience of looking inside a powerful piece of music.

Now we have a better understanding of how much everyone here knows or doesn't know and how we can best progress. The next project is going to be Bach's Prelude in C from his WTC. This will be a whole lot easier and a much preferred place to start.

I've been overwhelmed by the enthusiasm everyone had in this thread and awestruck by how quickly it accelerated. I've never seen a thread grow so fast.

It's been a blast. Thanks, everyone.

The leprechauns have blown out the big candles here and I have to climb the little wooden hill.

Later.