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#2025510 - 02/01/13 06:17 PM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: Rieman]
pianotune2 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/01/12
Posts: 61
Loc: ks
I don't know why guys spend money on tips and hammers. I just use my fingers, you can really feel the pin movement this way, haha. However if its been a long day and my fingers are tired I use a Charles Faulk hammer. I also don't think $130 is a lot to spend on a tip if it works well. If you are just starting out tuning I can understand not coughing up that kind of cash, but when this is your career invest in the best.
_________________________
Stewart Moore
Piano Technician North Central and North East Kansas

www.pianotune2.webs.com

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#2025646 - 02/01/13 11:05 PM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: pianotune2]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
I worked many years in high end machining and Tool and die with a great deal of that time quoting prices for items far more sophisticated than an internally splined tuning tip. I would have to be insane to pay $130 for a tuning tip. There is no applicable alloy, heat treating process, machining operation or finish that can justify that cost for this item....period. I would love to see any proof showing otherwise.

I've had the odd tip not last as long as I wished it would from even good names like Watanabe, but have several which have lasted many, many years for 1/10 that cost.


Edited by Emmery (02/01/13 11:06 PM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2091109 - 05/29/13 02:57 AM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: Rieman]
Gary Fowler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 375
Some tuning hammers fit some pianos better than others. I carry about 3 different ones around
_________________________
Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...

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#2091121 - 05/29/13 03:19 AM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: Rieman]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
DUe to the "smoothness" of the pin material, I suggest that an ideal tip will "reshape" the tuning pin.

I have seen enough edges rounded by bad tips, I received tips that had a very thin strip shaped in star and where putting all the torque on a small part of the pin.

The cost may sound really high indeed, but if it allow to keep an optimal fit for a definite number of decades, it may be worth it.

I rate well tips as Yamaha (not Watanabe, but I do not know them well, my tips are coming from Yamaha) Jahnn levers and tips seem also to be the ones that last the longer, for the ones I used) Sole, Hale, always wear at some point. Jahnn seemed to last 3 times that if not more, I use a student long thin lever for stringing, and it did not take any play.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2091170 - 05/29/13 06:22 AM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: Rieman]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
A customer of mine tried to touch up her piano with a cheapo lever, and the tip deformed to the point that the tuning pin became imbedded in it. Neither she nor I could get the lever off the pin. I even tried a hammer shank extractor as a last resort, using the plate as leverage, hoping it would separate the hammer from the pin.

In the end, I had to cut the string and turn the pin and lever out as a single unit, then install a new pin and string.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#2091182 - 05/29/13 07:38 AM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: Loren D]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Loren D
A customer of mine tried to touch up her piano with a cheapo lever, and the tip deformed to the point that the tuning pin became imbedded in it. Neither she nor I could get the lever off the pin. I even tried a hammer shank extractor as a last resort, using the plate as leverage, hoping it would separate the hammer from the pin.

In the end, I had to cut the string and turn the pin and lever out as a single unit, then install a new pin and string.

This situation can happen to anyone. Very soft tip-head wrench "fused" with the pin. To avoid this, you need to make a homemade key only if the forging equipment. We must forge the verge of a pin. We also need solid steel.
Women should not be given into the hands of t. hammer
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2091184 - 05/29/13 07:47 AM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: Maximillyan]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Women should not be given into the hands of t. hammer


"T-Hammer" is a blues/rock band here in North America and they treat their women fine. I believe you meant to say that a woman should not be allowed, or doesn't have the capability to properly use a tuning hammer....which is actually quite a sexist innapropriate remark. I know a few female tuners who would "tune yer a$$" with one if you said that to them personally. Shame


Edited by Emmery (05/29/13 07:47 AM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2091189 - 05/29/13 07:58 AM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: Emmery]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Women should not be given into the hands of t. hammer


"T-Hammer" is a blues/rock band here in North America and they treat their women fine. I believe you meant to say that a woman should not be allowed, or doesn't have the capability to properly use a tuning hammer....which is actually quite a sexist innapropriate remark. I know a few female tuners who would "tune yer a$$" with one if you said that to them personally. Shame


I would just say to be mindful of cultural differences, which surely vary from country to country.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#2091192 - 05/29/13 08:02 AM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Women should not be given into the hands of t. hammer

who would "tune yer a$$" with one if you said that to them personally. Shame

I'm talking about the lady not professional
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2091254 - 05/29/13 10:02 AM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: Loren D]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: Loren D
I would just say to be mindful of cultural differences


Indeed, especially when posting on an English-speaking forum from Kazakhstan. Really, I don't see what gender has to do with inferior tuning tools.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2091469 - 05/29/13 03:45 PM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: Loren D]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Women should not be given into the hands of t. hammer


"T-Hammer" is a blues/rock band here in North America and they treat their women fine. I believe you meant to say that a woman should not be allowed, or doesn't have the capability to properly use a tuning hammer....which is actually quite a sexist innapropriate remark. I know a few female tuners who would "tune yer a$$" with one if you said that to them personally. Shame


I would just say to be mindful of cultural differences, which surely vary from country to country.


I'm not sure who your statement was directed to because of the double quote, but if it included me...

It is polite, and possibly also advantageous, to abide by the customs of a society when one is a visitor there; the internet however is neutral ground.

max, I've been in the position of having to repair DIY jobs at least a dozen times over the years and every one of the "non-proffesionals" was a man. Maybe its a rare coincidence, but I look at it this way...I beleive women in general have more common sense to not tackle something thats way over their head then men do. This is a good thing, not a bad thing.

My apologies either way, if your comment wasn't meant to be sexist...sometimes these bing translaters mutilate a language.


Edited by Emmery (05/29/13 03:47 PM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2091559 - 05/29/13 06:32 PM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: Rieman]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Once we receives asian pianos with tuning pins so hard, on one of them the tuner deformed many pins while tuning and broke one.

One of the tuning pin could not move at all, it bend, twist, but no way to turn it, as glued)

I dont know what lever had my colleague but he may have marred its tips at the same time as the pins on the piano.
The piano was returned of course.

I even tried to heat the locked tuning pin with a torch, no effect.

Many of my colleagues had locally made tuning levers with a not precise fit (a dimension or angle question within the tips)

I dont know why some times really seem to fall tight on almost all pins, while others are always rocking more than wanted.



Edited by Olek (05/29/13 06:37 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2091567 - 05/29/13 06:42 PM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: Emmery]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Emmery


I'm not sure who your statement was directed to because of the double quote, but if it included me...

It is polite, and possibly also advantageous, to abide by the customs of a society when one is a visitor there; the internet however is neutral ground.


Sorry for the confusion, Emmery; I actually meant that for Max.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#2091581 - 05/29/13 06:59 PM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: Rieman]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1228
Loc: Québec, Canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLl0k1MpaQE&feature=youtu.be

The better the tools you buy, the better the job gets done.
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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#2091741 - 05/29/13 10:54 PM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: Emmery]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Women should not be given into the hands of t. hammer


"T-Hammer" is a blues/rock band here in North America and they treat their women fine. I believe you meant to say that a woman should not be allowed, or doesn't have the capability to properly use a tuning hammer....which is actually quite a sexist innapropriate remark. I know a few female tuners who would "tune yer a$$" with one if you said that to them personally. Shame


I would just say to be mindful of cultural differences, which surely vary from country to country.

My apologies either way, if your comment wasn't meant to be sexist...sometimes these bing translaters mutilate a language.

There is no sexism.
On a woman keeps the whole world. We are to honor women in all its acts, even if she does that wrong often. I'm just against homemade t. hammer of a soft metal. A woman will tuning own piano with it's and she can be seriously to maim the piano. But to fix will need the tech-man
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2091904 - 05/30/13 03:02 AM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: Rieman]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21917
Loc: Oakland
There are women who are far better piano technicians than you are, Max.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2091914 - 05/30/13 03:50 AM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: BDB]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: BDB
There are women who are far better piano technicians than you are, Max.

There is always the best and the worst. This is the dialectic of life. BDB, you have not thing opened. If you wanna offend Max, he never is offended
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2092538 - 05/31/13 12:09 AM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1812
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan


There is no sexism..........
.
................. A woman will tuning own piano with it's and she can be seriously to maim the piano. But to fix will need the tech-man


Max. Maybe it's the translator or perhaps there's something I'm not understanding, would you explain to me why you can make this statement?
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2092560 - 05/31/13 12:33 AM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan


There is no sexism..........
.
................. A woman will tuning own piano with it's and she can be seriously to maim the piano. But to fix will need the tech-man


Max. Maybe it's the translator or perhaps there's something I'm not understanding, would you explain to me why you can make this statement?

I'll try again.
Where I lives, a woman should give birth and do your home deals and educate children.
A man is breadwinner. A woman should always listen carefully to her husband. She has to do everything the way He solves. If we ignore it, it will be bad, I'm think
I am not against women who repair their own piano. However, very often, she do not understand what do. She can "lick sides of a pin" when working homemade hammer. To correct this you need a Man. That's what I was trying to say.
Regards, Max
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2092593 - 05/31/13 01:51 AM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: accordeur]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2466
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: accordeur
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLl0k1MpaQE&feature=youtu.be

The better the tools you buy, the better the job gets done.


Jean, the third tip, the long one. Was that an old Hale, like maybe 35 years or so old?
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2092623 - 05/31/13 03:04 AM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1812
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan


There is no sexism..........
.
................. A woman will tuning own piano with it's and she can be seriously to maim the piano. But to fix will need the tech-man


Max. Maybe it's the translator or perhaps there's something I'm not understanding, would you explain to me why you can make this statement?

I'll try again.
Where I lives, a woman should give birth and do your home deals and educate children.
A man is breadwinner. A woman should always listen carefully to her husband. She has to do everything the way He solves. If we ignore it, it will be bad, I'm think
I am not against women who repair their own piano. However, very often, she do not understand what do. She can "lick sides of a pin" when working homemade hammer. To correct this you need a Man. That's what I was trying to say.
Regards, Max


I see. So it's not about comparative strength, or anything like that, but more about comparative levels of understanding?

Would you say this is cultural or a religious teaching?
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2092626 - 05/31/13 03:15 AM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: Rieman]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
The family is in trouble with breadwinners as you, let me say...

Women are not "superior" or inferior" to men (while I have seen some cases...) particularly when the man think with his (tuning lever) as many have a strong tendency for...

I will give NO excuse for that way of thinking, sorry.

If you wife was allowed to learn to tune, she probably would do very well by now.

Why? because women are way more conscious of the difficulties in life and they are astute enough to catch all opportunities to learn how to survive better or more easily.

Many men are too much proud of themselves , in comparison, with or without reason is not the question.


That could be considered sexist, but as I am better than you all I don't care !!!


Edited by Olek (05/31/13 03:20 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2092639 - 05/31/13 03:51 AM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan


There is no sexism..........
.
................. A woman will tuning own piano with it's and she can be seriously to maim the piano. But to fix will need the tech-man


Max. Maybe it's the translator or perhaps there's something I'm not understanding, would you explain to me why you can make this statement?

I'll try again.
Where I lives, a woman should give birth and do your home deals and educate children.
A man is breadwinner. A woman should always listen carefully to her husband. She has to do everything the way He solves. If we ignore it, it will be bad, I'm think
I am not against women who repair their own piano. However, very often, she do not understand what do. She can "lick sides of a pin" when working homemade hammer. To correct this you need a Man. That's what I was trying to say.
Regards, Max


I see. So it's not about comparative strength, or anything like that, but more about comparative levels of understanding?

Would you say this is cultural or a religious teaching?

Rather, it is hard condition. To survive in difficult economic, political and racial contradictions our reality
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2092643 - 05/31/13 04:01 AM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: Olek]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Olek

If you wife was allowed to learn to tune, she probably would do very well by now.

Why? because women are way more conscious of the difficulties in life and they are astute enough to catch all opportunities to learn how to survive better or more easily
.

but as I am better than you all I don't care !!!

Isaac, you have not correctly understood me. I'm for equality of the sexes. I said only that: " I only sorry for the piano, which spoiled the non-professional female technician. And no words more, ALL!"
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2092738 - 05/31/13 09:34 AM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: Olek]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1812
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Olek
The family is in trouble with breadwinners as you, let me say...

Women are not "superior" or inferior" to men (while I have seen some cases...) particularly when the man think with his (tuning lever) as many have a strong tendency for...

I will give NO excuse for that way of thinking, sorry.

If you wife was allowed to learn to tune, she probably would do very well by now.

Why? because women are way more conscious of the difficulties in life and they are astute enough to catch all opportunities to learn how to survive better or more easily.

Many men are too much proud of themselves , in comparison, with or without reason is not the question.


That could be considered sexist, but as I am better than you all I don't care !!!


Isaac,

I find your post easier to take if I imagine it with slurred speech.
In your attempt to chastise Max you have told us more about yourself than we care to know.
Some of what you say sounds like something a drunk would say half an hour after he should have gone home.

Talk to you in the morning.

In vino veritas?
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2092742 - 05/31/13 09:41 AM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: Maximillyan]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2481
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan


There is no sexism..........
.
................. A woman will tuning own piano with it's and she can be seriously to maim the piano. But to fix will need the tech-man


Max. Maybe it's the translator or perhaps there's something I'm not understanding, would you explain to me why you can make this statement?

I'll try again.
Where I lives, a woman should give birth and do your home deals and educate children.
A man is breadwinner. A woman should always listen carefully to her husband. She has to do everything the way He solves. If we ignore it, it will be bad, I'm think
I am not against women who repair their own piano. However, very often, she do not understand what do. She can "lick sides of a pin" when working homemade hammer. To correct this you need a Man. That's what I was trying to say.
Regards, Max


The First Law of Holes by Denis Healey states,

"If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging."
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#2093025 - 05/31/13 05:40 PM Re: Why not using cheap tuning hammers? [Re: OperaTenor]
accordeur Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1228
Loc: Québec, Canada
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Originally Posted By: accordeur
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLl0k1MpaQE&feature=youtu.be

The better the tools you buy, the better the job gets done.


Jean, the third tip, the long one. Was that an old Hale, like maybe 35 years or so old?



Hi Jim, I've had that tip for 27 years. It was given to me by my father when I started in the trade. He bought it along with a bunch of tools from a retired tuner. So I figure it's probably even older than 35 years. There are no markings on it, but it does look like a Hale. I bought a long watannabe when I bought my Fujan, but I did not like it. That tip still performs as well as the day I got it.

All the best
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca

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