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#1945848 - 08/19/12 11:03 PM Re: What to do with this lovely student of mine! [Re: Roger Ransom]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7200
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Roger, one thing for sure, it's not the student's fault. We all have egos and children/youth are most sensitive. It's up to the teacher to insure they are not bruised - at least on the teaching side. There is little we can do about boorish and insensitive (even if well meaning) parents. However, as an adult, we now need to analyze the how and why we feel the way we do and then, after coming to grips with it, figuring out how to move past it. I, too, was terrorized with recitals as a youth, but guess what, as a teacher, I have to get on stage all the time, so have had to come to grips with the what and why I felt the way I did. I suspect, considering we both come from the same area of Michigan, we got the "Dutch" treatment, which, for those who don't know what this means, count your blessings.

If by chance you're taking lessons, consider performing as a way to defeat your nemesis. Prepare one or two ridiculously easy pieces, ones which will not give you any problems at all, and play them would flourish and panache. Enjoy the occasion. You're doing something which 99% of the population can only dream of. If you're not taking lessons, either invite some friends over and do a short recital, or perhaps one of your teacher friends would allow you to perform at a student recital.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1945850 - 08/19/12 11:12 PM Re: What to do with this lovely student of mine! [Re: Roger Ransom]
DadAgain Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 365
Loc: Brisbane, QLD
Originally Posted By: Roger Ransom
...My teacher made a huge deal out of her annual recitals. I found it incredibly stressful and scary ....


hmmm... That could be your problem - not enough exposure to performance. ANNUAL recital?

My daughter has recital concerts from her teacher roughly once a term (4 times a year) and plays in several competitions each year, with multiple divisions to each competition. She plays in whole school assemblies every few weeks, plays over skype to her grandparents in the UK and now records YouTube clips for online recitals on PW forums too! Then there's her violin playing where she has a number of orchestral and ensemble performances each term etc etc etc....

So each year she's not performing to an audience just ONCE - she's performing perhaps 30+ times a year on piano and perhaps a dozen times in other ensembles. The constant exposure to performance means she doesnt 'do' performance fear. Its just not a factor. She does get nervous sometimes at competitions, but its not a fear of playing in front of people - its a fear of not winning (these nerves only kick in when another competitor plays well)!

I did not grow up performing anywhere near as often as her - but still I remember being utterly unphased by performer nerves as a youth. The constant parade of orchestral bits and pieces and various small ensembles meant that performing was just part of my DNA. Fear was never present - even when I was playing stuff that was totally beyond my capabilities. (This has served me well professionally and I am a confident public speaker even on topics I am desperately under-prepared for)


Edited by DadAgain (08/19/12 11:22 PM)
_________________________
Parent....
Orchestral Viola player (stictly amateur)....
Hack Pianist.... (faded skills from glory days 20 yrs ago)
Vague Guitar & Bass player.... (former minor income stream 15 yrs ago)
Former conductor... (been a long time since I was set loose with a magic wand!)

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#1945888 - 08/20/12 12:55 AM Re: What to do with this lovely student of mine! [Re: keystring]
The Monkeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 399
Loc: Vancouver BC
Originally Posted By: keystring

ANY experience that we have in childhood will carry a positive or negative association. So if recitals become a bad experience, then that experience can cause anxiety in adulthood for other public performances resembling them. Or the reverse, as John suggested.


What do you think an adult would do with public performance without any performance experience thought out the childhood?

Originally Posted By: keystring

I also don't think that emotion is logical. If a child bombs at a recital and the family and/or teacher treat it as earth shattering, then it will be earth shattering. I don't even think that this is limited to children. On the emotional plane things associate weirdly.

If the family and/or teacher treat it (bombs at recital) as earth shattering, there would be many other occasions for the family/teach to earth shatter the student, shying away from recitals wouldn't change that, would it?

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#1945893 - 08/20/12 01:14 AM Re: What to do with this lovely student of mine! [Re: The Monkeys]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11166
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys
[quote=keystring]
ANY experience that we have in childhood will carry a positive or negative association. So if recitals become a bad experience, then that experience can cause anxiety in adulthood for other public performances resembling them. Or the reverse, as John suggested.
Quote:

What do you think an adult would do with public performance without any performance experience thought out the childhood?

1. Your response does not address what I wrote. You did not address the idea of bad experiences. I could interpret your response from the side of bad experiences and thus say: "If a child has a bad experience, then an adult who has not had a bad experience because the adult did not do recitals as a child, then that adult will do wonderfully later on." But what you meant was, "If a child has had a good experience, then as an adult he will be comfortable doing recitals. However an adult without that good experience will not be able to do well." That is what your question meant. You were addressing only one of my two possibilities.

It should occur to you that I was saying that children should be given good experience if they are to do recitals. Please check John v. D. Brooke's answer to see what I am thinking of.

To answer your question:
Quote:
What do you think an adult would do with public performance without any performance experience thought out the childhood?

I had no lessons and thus no performance experience in childhood. I did my first recital when I was almost 50. I did fine. There's an answer.

I also know of adults who had bad experiences in childhood recitals, and they are still terrified of performing. Go visit the ABF for stories.

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#1945955 - 08/20/12 06:29 AM Re: What to do with this lovely student of mine! [Re: keystring]
The Monkeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 399
Loc: Vancouver BC
Originally Posted By: keystring

Your response does not address what I wrote. You did not address the idea of bad experiences.... You were addressing only one of my two possibilities.


I don't think the experience has to be binary, either black or white, it can be many shades in between.

And even the worst experience of taking stage, is not like some childhood abuse that would shadow one for the rest of the life. Everyone can get better over time.

If the child takes stage only once a year, and the parent/teacher keeps reminding him/her that is a big deal, you can't blow it, etc, yes, with that kind the pressure, I can imagine it can be a pretty bad experience. With the once a year frequency, yes, you build up the stress.

But it doesn't have to be that way. There are many opportunities to perform in a supportive environment.

Our church is very musical with many profession players, but we let the kids do most of the music service. There are many opportunities to play, first at small group bible studies, then at various fellowships.

Everyone is nervous at the first few times, but everyone gets better very quickly. Most people can perform at their true level in front of an audience in a couple of months if not sooner. Higher level kids will do music service at the Sunday service, in front of a 500 congregation. We have a number of professional piano players, but their are all backups, we give most of opportunities to kids at reasonable level and are willing to serve. In this kind of setting, everyone is immersed in the music, the focus is never on individual performance, it is all about the music itself. We have seen generations and generations grew up playing music very well, and some exceptionally (disturbingly?) well at very young age.

If you are not religious, I suppose there are still many opportunities to perform non-competitively, play at senior homes for instance, sing at a local choir, join a local band.... I am sure you can find something.

Music, as a performance art, is different when playing alone and playing to an audience, the applause, I can tell you, will give you a great experience.

Being able to take the stage is very important to a child's development IMHO. It teaches the child the sense of responsibility, confidence, leadership among other things.

As a performance art student, I just don't see the reason not to perform.

Sorry for the long off topic posting. Cheers.

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#1946343 - 08/20/12 06:18 PM Re: What to do with this lovely student of mine! [Re: Beth_Frances]
Roger Ransom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1227
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
I have pretty much overcome my fear of playing for other people at this point in my life.

It sort of just happened without a plan.

It actually started because our house is on a route to a beach on Lake Michigan and lots of people pass by on their way to the beach so I could play and pretend they were listening to me. I was asked at one point to accompany a series of 'sing a longs' at a Nursing home - lots of fun, no pressure on me. I played background music at a few weddings - again, the attention was not on me but I was playing in 'semi-public'. I've played for city library programs for kids and even played for a music appreciation program for the library - the people actually were focused on me and it was not particularly stressful but I used music and played pieces I could play in my sleep. Playing for other people is actually pleasant now.

I'm happy you are all addressing it in a more productive way.

Anyway, I did not intend to derail the original topic addressing the young student and I will return to the background smile .
_________________________
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#1946516 - 08/21/12 02:54 AM Re: What to do with this lovely student of mine! [Re: Beth_Frances]
rlinkt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 291
Loc: CA
I am late to the party! I have an 8 yr. old who loves to play piano. Her teacher pretty much lets her pick what she wants to learn next. She would offer her a wide set of options to choose from, making sure that they are all appropriate for her, and go with whatever piece my daughter chooses to play next. Once in a while she will prescribe a specific piece, but for the most part its my daughter's choice. From what I can tell, its working out really well. My daughter is fired up about each piece she works on. Here are some of the pieces she has learned in the last 6 months: Six variations (Beethoven, current project), Badinerie (Bach), Mozart's K545, German dance (Tchaikovsky), Waltz in A minor (Chopin), Fur Elise, ... I don't play piano (I play guitar) -- so I can't tell if she is missing out developing a more complete skill set. But she loves to play these pieces, and sounds great playing them. Isn't that what music should be about?


Edited by rlinkt (08/21/12 02:54 AM)

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#1946600 - 08/21/12 09:49 AM Re: What to do with this lovely student of mine! [Re: rlinkt]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7200
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: rlinkt
I am late to the party! I have an 8 yr. old who loves to play piano. Her teacher pretty much lets her pick what she wants to learn next. She would offer her a wide set of options to choose from, making sure that they are all appropriate for her, and go with whatever piece my daughter chooses to play next. Once in a while she will prescribe a specific piece, but for the most part its my daughter's choice. From what I can tell, its working out really well. My daughter is fired up about each piece she works on. Here are some of the pieces she has learned in the last 6 months: Six variations (Beethoven, current project), Badinerie (Bach), Mozart's K545, German dance (Tchaikovsky), Waltz in A minor (Chopin), Fur Elise, ... I don't play piano (I play guitar) -- so I can't tell if she is missing out developing a more complete skill set. But she loves to play these pieces, and sounds great playing them. Isn't that what music should be about?

You didn't ask, but I will opine anyway. If she's playing the original versions of these pieces, she's upper intermediate, and that's quite an accomplishment for an 8 year old. OTHO, if she's learning reductions or is not mastering these at tempo, with good control and technique, and musicality, then you may want to reevaluate her learning approach.

As to your question, Isn't that what music should be about? I would say, partly.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1946667 - 08/21/12 01:05 PM Re: What to do with this lovely student of mine! [Re: Beth_Frances]
LadyChen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/25/12
Posts: 521
Loc: Canada
Wow, lots of great stuff being discussed here. This could easily break off into several different topics. I'm a bit behind on my PW reading and read this whole thread just now, so I am also 'late to the party'!

The Monkeys -- I'm totally a supporter of 'growing' our musicians in the church. I play for services all over my little city now, and people ask me if I get nervous, or stressed from all the different music and accompaniments, and I kinda laugh and think, No, I've been doing this since I was 10 years old! I was fortunate enough to grow up in a church that, like yours, encouraged and nurtured children in sharing their gifts with the congregation. When I was 12, I was invited to 'apprentice' as an accompanist for the senior choir, and that has maybe been one of my most valuable learning experiences as a musician. And what a wonderful place to have my first performance experiences -- my church, and most churches I would guess, was always EXTREMELY encouraging and supportive, no matter what happened. Not many of my students attend church, so I'm disappointed that they don't have this opportunity available to them.

John v.d. Brook -- I love your approach to your studio recitals. You never know what parents are doing at home to create performance anxiety (and students, of course, are very good at creating their own performance anxiety!) so any steps you take to creating a 'safe' environment are important! I think for adult students, this is especially true. My voice teacher only takes adult students, and she gives a very similar speech to yours at the beginning of all her recitals. My piano teacher is also very good at making performances seem less scary. Often at my lesson, she will run across the street and drag the neighbour over to listen, or invite another teacher, or her boyfriend (who she says is NOT her boyfriend lol), etc etc. And I liked what you said about figuring out that it's not the end of the world if you do make a mistake. So I figure the more mistakes, or memory lapses you have, the better you get at recovering from them, and realizing that it really isn't that bad.

And back to the original poster -- I think we all have students like this. I have a student who only wants to play Star Wars too. He hates playing anything soft. But we have worked out an agreement -- I still give him soft, lyrical pieces, but I tell him they're just for practice, so he can learn how to play this way, but his big, loud, hero-based music are his 'peformance' pieces, and we spend more time polishing and perfecting the music he loves. It's a balance -- I don't want to neglect any side of his musical studies because of his preferences, but I also don't want him to have to play music he hates. I will do anything to keep his enthusiasm going! It's so refreshing, even if I have to listen to a lot of Star Wars and Batman.

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#1947015 - 08/22/12 01:40 AM Re: What to do with this lovely student of mine! [Re: John v.d.Brook]
rlinkt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 291
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook

If she's playing the original versions of these pieces, she's upper intermediate, and that's quite an accomplishment for an 8 year old. OTHO, if she's learning reductions or is not mastering these at tempo, with good control and technique, and musicality, then you may want to reevaluate her learning approach.


Fair enough. Yes -- she does learn the original versions. She likes to play fast, and its quite a challenge to get her to play slow and get her arms around a piece before moving up to a tempo where she cannot control it. As a dad, and as a non-pianist, I am not in a great position to judge how well she is doing for her age. So here are some links to both finished and in-progress pieces. You be the judge. I would appreciate your thoughts if you PM me.

http://youtu.be/-aiE3dNfBOU
http://youtu.be/EwrATRj3C4A
http://youtu.be/HuiG_8MtskY

Quote:

As to your question, Isn't that what music should be about? I would say, partly.

I guess this is more of a personal preference, and I was representing my view only. I started playing guitar when I was 5 or 6. I don't remember the early years, but what kept my passion alive the last 30 years was finding music that I loved, and playing the heck out of them. I am still just as passionate about the music that I love after all these years -- even though I just don't have the time to play any more. I have huge holes in my skill set -- but I suspect that I would lost the passion and stopped playing a long time back if I had traded what I loved to play in favor of developing a complete skill set.

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#1947103 - 08/22/12 08:51 AM Re: What to do with this lovely student of mine! [Re: rlinkt]
Piano Again Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 1162
Loc: Washington metro
I'm not a piano teacher, but I thought your daughter's playing was very clean and musical -- perhaps more so when she was playing at home vs. the recital, but that's always the case. Also, I didn't hear any rushing, and the important stuff in the music was always in the foreground. She has a nice presence at the piano.
_________________________
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#1947220 - 08/22/12 01:05 PM Re: What to do with this lovely student of mine! [Re: rlinkt]
The Monkeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 399
Loc: Vancouver BC
She seems enjoying it, and as a lay person, I lover her playing.
Thanks for sharing.

Originally Posted By: rlinkt
....but I suspect that I would lost the passion and stopped playing a long time back if I had traded what I loved to play in favor of developing a complete skill set.


Not sure if developing a complete skill set has to conflict with playing what you like.

Originally Posted By: rlinkt
.... She would offer her a wide set of options to choose from, making sure that they are all appropriate for her


I still see guidance here, if the offered options contain the same skills on the development path, then there wouldn't be a problem. Giving options to the students is something quite different from following whatever the student likes at the moment, Star War today and Lady Gaga tomorrow.

And when the teacher sees a concerning weakness:
Originally Posted By: rlinkt

..... Once in a while she will prescribe a specific piece


Of course easier said then done, this is beyond many of the method book teachers I am afraid, requires a very high level of knowledge, experiences and skills from the teacher. It seems your daughter has got a good one.

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#1947420 - 08/22/12 07:13 PM Re: What to do with this lovely student of mine! [Re: rlinkt]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7200
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
I am loath to comment on other teacher's students and their performances. Viewing on tape often opens the possibility for missing significant strengths or problems due to the nature of the media. However, take a look at a similarly aged student playing through the Czerny Op. 839 Etudes. (Not all the videos are public, so the player will skip over the ones which are not).

Notice the superb technique and control, the evenness of the melodic line, the voicing and phrasing. I believe this is what all teachers should be striving for especially with highly talented and motivated students.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1947434 - 08/22/12 07:35 PM Re: What to do with this lovely student of mine! [Re: John v.d.Brook]
The Monkeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/13/12
Posts: 399
Loc: Vancouver BC
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
However, take a look at a similarly aged student playing through the Czerny Op. 839 Etudes.


That is not fair, Yuja Wang was NOT just a similar aged kid. She is one in a million (at least), played piano for all her life and didn't even attend regular school. Today, she is one of the top line performing pianist.

Using her as a standard we better just all quit.

Edit:
Just did a little research, that wasn't casual recordings either, it was recorded as part of teaching program of the Central Conservatory of Music of China, with the deep resource and top teachers of the country behind her.

Enjoy it, but just don't compare you kids to this, it is not fair.


Edited by The Monkeys (08/22/12 08:24 PM)

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#1947517 - 08/22/12 09:56 PM Re: What to do with this lovely student of mine! [Re: The Monkeys]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5271
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys
Just did a little research, that wasn't casual recordings either, it was recorded as part of teaching program of the Central Conservatory of Music of China, with the deep resource and top teachers of the country behind her.

Really? You'd think they'd spend more money to improve the video quality. And why Czerny? Yuja's talent is completely wasted on such worthless writing.
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#1947591 - 08/22/12 11:54 PM Re: What to do with this lovely student of mine! [Re: The Monkeys]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7200
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: The Monkeys
That is not fair, Yuja Wang was NOT just a similar aged kid. She is one in a million (at least), played piano for all her life and didn't even attend regular school. Today, she is one of the top line performing pianist.

Using her as a standard we better just all quit.

Edit:
Just did a little research, that wasn't casual recordings either, it was recorded as part of teaching program of the Central Conservatory of Music of China, with the deep resource and top teachers of the country behind her.

Enjoy it, but just don't compare you kids to this, it is not fair.

If you did a bit more research, you'd know she began lessons at age 7, and had the same teacher from age 7 to 14, when she left China. And she didn't start piano in the conservatory. Her teacher, Ling Yuan, was heavily influenced by the Russian school and Schnabel and Cortot, as is the OP's daughter's teacher.

And who's to say the OPs daughter isn't just as talented and also one in a million?

Definitely use her as a standard, which is why I selected her as an example.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#1948739 - 08/24/12 09:38 PM Re: What to do with this lovely student of mine! [Re: Beth_Frances]
rlinkt Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/08/12
Posts: 291
Loc: CA
Piano Again, The Monkeys,

Thank you for your comments! Regarding your comment about the teacher -- yes, I think we are lucky to have a very dedicated teacher. I am sure that it takes knowledge and a bunch of work to choose pieces for each of your students. She seems to really enjoy teaching kids.

John,

My daughter has looked up Yuja Wang's playing on YouTube in the past, particularly when she was learning K545. If she achieves that level of skill -- I will be thrilled, but I am not going to hold my breath!

Quote:
Her teacher, Ling Yuan, was heavily influenced by the Russian school and Schnabel and Cortot, as is the OP's daughter's teacher.

You certainly know your stuff :-) My daughter's teacher is Russian indeed! I do not know which part of the approach is the russian trademark, but she does refer to the fact she is following a lot of the teaching styles from her russian school.


Edited by rlinkt (08/24/12 10:05 PM)

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