Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) End Stage Fright
End Stage Fright
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 4 of 4 < 1 2 3 4
Topic Options
#1949709 - 08/27/12 09:10 AM Re: Feurich vs Hailun [Re: elil]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4393
Loc: San Jose, CA
Cool shirt, Sam. Scary--- it's me, all right. I'd recognize him anywhere.:)
_________________________
Clef


Top
(ads 568) Hailun Pianos

piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1949734 - 08/27/12 10:07 AM Re: Feurich vs Hailun [Re: pianoloverus]
Pianolance Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 1178
Loc: Nashville, TN
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Mike Carr
Why isn’t post factory prep best done in the customers home as in the case of Steinway and Shigeru?
Because most pianos will not sound/play that good without a reasonable amount of prep and many buyers would not want to choose a piano based on how they hoped it would sound/play.

Shigerus and Steinways are not unprepped when they come from the factory and are also prepped by dealers(Steinway maybe less than some other makes or moe depending on the particular dealer). Shigeru offers additional in home prep by one of their master techs to improve the piano further and customize it more.


I'm going to attempt to get this thread back on track which may prove to be as difficult as steering the Titanic around an iceberg, but her it goes....

In my town the Steinways at the local dearler are not well prepped. I believe it greatly reduces their sales. I used to live in a town where the Steinway dealer did a great job of prepping the instruments. The difference between what the two dealers have on their floor is stunning. That tells me that dealer prep is very important. Now if Feurich (and you should hear how I pronounced that in my head as I typed it) has a special specification for dealer prep that Hailun (another pronounciation in my head that would make Rich roll his eyes) doesn't have I could very well see that there would be a real difference between the two. Maybe I should just consider a Cunningham as it is much easier to pronounce and I know Rich does a great job of prepping his pianos.
_________________________
Knabe 5'2" Louis XV Walnut circa 1927
Very part time piano broker.

Top
#1949741 - 08/27/12 10:22 AM Re: Feurich vs Hailun [Re: elil]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 6032
Loc: Rochester MN
Koo-ning-haahm?
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#1949921 - 08/27/12 04:22 PM Re: Feurich vs Hailun [Re: elil]
BoseEric Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 731
Loc: Fairfield County, CT
Thanks for trying Pianolance.

I really understand the average piano buyers confusion about "prep". Here is one way to think about it:

1 All pianos would benefit from some degree of prep. Sometimes that prep is needed to make the keys work, sometimes it is needed to allow a piano to produce ear-melting levels of pianissimo. However every new piano benefits from some degree of prep, just like every home piano would benefit from work beyond a simple tuning. Where the point of diminishing returns is is a judgement call.

2. Prep costs somebody money, and nobody wants that money to come out of their pocket. It takes time by a trained professional - there is no way around it. The manufacturer, frankly, does as little as they can get away with and wants to pass the rest on to the dealer. The dealer would prefer to do as little as possible to get the piano sold, which, frankly, the dealer cannot be blamed for. To some dealers that idea of "as little as possible" means nothing, to some it means 10 hours.

3. If you can't hear or don't care about the difference, then prep has little value to you and you should seek out the lowest price. You will have lots of choices, so one shouldn't go on a forum and suggest that people who do value it are getting "ripped off".

If you can hear the difference and care about it, then you should seek out a brand and dealer that supports those values.

The problem is that unless you know what a piano should sound like (and few people really do) it is very hard to evaluate the condition of a piano and whether or not it needs prep or if it has had some. Therefore, trust in your manufacturer, dealer and technician is the substitute.

I don't know what Hailun does and don't really care. At Feurich our strategy is to prep each piano to ensure a particular sound and quality standard. Right now it's easy. If sales take off it will be more of a challenge, but we have a plan for that!
_________________________
RPT. In the business: Feurich pianos, Neupert harpsichords, Hidrau benches, piano technician

Top
#1949964 - 08/27/12 05:32 PM Re: Feurich vs Hailun [Re: BoseEric]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19094
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: BoseEric
The problem is that unless you know what a piano should sound like (and few people really do) it is very hard to evaluate the condition of a piano and whether or not it needs prep or if it has had some. Therefore, trust in your manufacturer, dealer and technician is the substitute.
(My bold)Exactly.

IMO unless one has played many different examples of the same make/model at many different dealers and is also a high level pianist or tech, it is extremely difficult to know about the quality of the prep. One might recognize fairly obvious problems but I think most buyers can only get a very general idea of the prep quality at best.

I think many pianists can judge that they "liked" a particular piano's touch or tone, but that might not even be related to how much prep work was done on. Very few would know if an action they like the feel of could be made even better.

This reminds me of a story I think I read in Franz Mohr's book. Some very famous pianist left a few paper notes on the piano in Steinway's basement about which notes he thought needed to be voiced so they did not stand out from the others. Mohr said the pianist missed many notes that needed this adjustment.

When posters write things like "They prepped my piano to the fullest" or "Every piano in the store was prepped to the nines", I think in most cases(including my own)a relevant question would be "How do you know?"


Edited by pianoloverus (08/27/12 05:39 PM)

Top
#1949999 - 08/27/12 06:36 PM Re: Feurich vs Hailun [Re: elil]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4393
Loc: San Jose, CA
"... in most cases(including my own)a relevant question would be "How do you know?""

I read it on the internet. Duh!
_________________________
Clef


Top
#1950041 - 08/27/12 08:37 PM Re: Feurich vs Hailun [Re: elil]
BoseEric Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 731
Loc: Fairfield County, CT
To give an example for perspective, Bosendorfer is known for their out-of-the-box quality. Ask any dealer, they will all have examples of when they unboxed a Bosendorfer and could put it on the floor without having to even tune it! Bosendorfer spends a great deal of time and, therefore, money ensuring this experience.

However, if a Bosendorfer staff technician was tasked with unboxing and preparing this same piano, he (or she, but unlikely in Austria) would spend a MINIMUM of 4 to 6 hours working on the piano. I know this because I not only saw it done many many times, it was my job for 5 years.

While at Yamaha I witnessed the delivery of CFIII's and S4's and S6's at Yamaha Artist Services in NYC, all arrived sounding TERRIFIC. Still the staff concert tech would spend a MINIMUM of 4 to 6 hours making it even better.

Now these pianos all were of high enough quality that this effort paid off in a result. The real challenge is finding the point of diminishing returns for both the piano and the customers budget. Easy to talk about, not so easy to do, especially in the current economic climate.

My own experience confirms that of Franz Mohr. Frequently the specific adjustments requested are the least of the problems a piano might have. That's not to say they weren't noticeable or important..they clearly were. But other needed adjustments weren't specified because the pianist didn't know how to describe it, or simply accepted that the problem with repeating, or the clunky feeling in the key was just a characteristic of that particular piano, rather than jack position or a damper upstop rail that needed attention.
_________________________
RPT. In the business: Feurich pianos, Neupert harpsichords, Hidrau benches, piano technician

Top
#1950056 - 08/27/12 09:22 PM Re: Feurich vs Hailun [Re: BoseEric]
ventil Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/15/11
Posts: 145
Loc: TX
Originally Posted By: BoseEric
unless you know what a piano should sound like (and few people really do)


Can you elaborate on this further? Are you saying there is an objective standard? If I say that, in general, I prefer the tone of Kawai over Yamaha, does that mean I'm a cloth-eared dolt for not preferring the tone of __________? (fill in your favorite piano make here)

Originally Posted By: BoseEric
At Feurich our strategy is to prep each piano to ensure a particular sound and quality standard.


This appears to contradict the previous statement. So I'm confused. (Unless you actually mean all other pianos should sound like Feurich!)

dB
_________________________
David M. Boothe, CAS

Top
#1950075 - 08/27/12 10:20 PM Re: Feurich vs Hailun [Re: elil]
BoseEric Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 731
Loc: Fairfield County, CT
Hi db

Really great point.

I'm talking about piano technology, not piano design. A pianos components need to be constructed and assembled in a particular way to get the best sound out of the design. This means, for example, the keys must be level and travel down a particular and consistent amount. The hammers must be shaped and mated to the strings. The strings must be level, the repetition springs must be adjusted correctly and on and on. These steps, collectively called regulation + voicing, but also called prep when done to a new piano, must be completed, theoretically, to bring out the tone and touch that the designers intended.

These steps are universal to all modern actions and understood to be common practice. It is the degree of finesse employed that can vary.

Before you decide you like Kawai over Yamaha, for example, make sure you are evaluating well prepared examples of each, so the Kawai is as Kawai as it can be, and the same for Yamaha.
_________________________
RPT. In the business: Feurich pianos, Neupert harpsichords, Hidrau benches, piano technician

Top
#1950105 - 08/27/12 11:56 PM Re: Feurich vs Hailun [Re: BoseEric]
ventil Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/15/11
Posts: 145
Loc: TX
BoseEric,

Thanks for the explanation.

Originally Posted By: BoseEric
These steps, collectively called regulation + voicing, but also called prep when done to a new piano, must be completed, theoretically, to bring out the tone and touch that the designers intended.


This makes sense and i see what your meaning was.

BTW, my preference for Kawai over Yamaha is real and based on years of hearing and playing many instruments of both makes. Of course, you'll notice that I own neither.

dB
_________________________
David M. Boothe, CAS

Top
#1950911 - 08/29/12 12:33 PM Re: Feurich vs Hailun [Re: elil]
Campanella12 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/06
Posts: 38
Loc: Seattle
We were recently alerted to this thread and welcome the passionate discussion- including Mr. Carr’s friendship of our brand.

We would like to contribute some nicely recorded music to this conversation. Here are two pieces that hail from Austria. Eric Himy is performing The Forgotten Walse (Valse Oubliee No. 1) and then the Sonetto del Petrarca 123 by Franz Liszt. The piano: a Hailun Grand 218 - and a good example of a well-“prepped” Hailun. The occasion: 200th Liszt Anniversary Concert @ the Landmark Center, St. Paul, MN.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ohrSICZd7E&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lBrpsIck84&feature=plcp


Disclaimer: This video was made in collaboration with the Authorized Hailun Merchant in the Twin Cities, Wells Music. Their name appears in the video – hope that won’t bother anyone.


Hailun USA - www.hailun-pianos.com

Top
Page 4 of 4 < 1 2 3 4

Moderator:  Ken Knapp, Piano World, Rickster 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Download & Print Sheet Music Instantly
sheet music search
sheet music search

sheet music search
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
72 registered (Atrys, ando, adanepst, 36251, BB Player, 15 invisible), 1112 Guests and 48 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
74198 Members
42 Forums
153492 Topics
2249209 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Tired Fingers
by adanepst
Today at 01:45 AM
Bechstein 7
by PhilipInChina
Today at 01:07 AM
Premier Piano of New York
by FenderJazzMan
Yesterday at 11:58 PM
Top selling self-taught pianists?
by Sand Tiger
Yesterday at 11:06 PM
Just got my MP11!
by Dan Clark
Yesterday at 10:18 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission