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#1926580 - 07/14/12 07:33 AM poslishing small scratches
ZBGM0 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 96
Hi!

I have a question about a scratch removing. I read quite a few topics about it, but opinions are quite different, so I decided I will open new topics.

Well, I found few scratches on my piano and I have no idea where they came from. First, I have to say that I am not obsessed with scratches…but the scratches are really so shallow that they could probably disappeared quite fast – at least I think so. I believe that micro scratches it the right term, there is no way that you can feel the scratch if you touch it with your finger nail and they are also not seen if there is not enough light in front of the piano.

Maybe I don’t need a buffing machine for scratches that I was describing. So my questing would be: what kind of wax should I buy to polish the scratches? I heard that car wax could be very good. There is also someone who reported a very good result with "Renaissance - Micro-Crystalline Wax Polish". I would like to get advice (if that is possible) for a specific product that works well for this situation. I don’t want to buy inappropriate wax, I heard that some of them leaves film on the finish etc. I am pretty sure that someone had good experiences with specific wax.

Piano finish: high gloss polyester (there is a sign “hard finish” on the desk).

Thanks and sorry for my English.

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#1926602 - 07/14/12 08:45 AM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1429
Loc: KZ
ZBGM0, it is better to use the wax from the bees (natural). To start a small piece of scrub at the site not visible a part your piano, and set how many need you to press to it's
I usually do this: I pick up soft-tip pen color the piano and drive it on this scratch. Then take a piece of wax, and slowly I drive on it with a little pressure. After I'm drive a piece of chamois here. You will feel when the scratch disappears. But I only work with cheap piano
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1926740 - 07/14/12 03:15 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: Maximillyan]
Robert 45 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/18/06
Posts: 1116
Loc: Auckland New Zealand
I would not use wax of any kind on a polyester finish. The term "Hard Finish" on the music desk, suggests to me that you have a Kawai piano and your piano should have been supplied with a cloth for removing smudges and light marks from the finish.

On this polyester finish, what appear like scratches are not in fact scratches at all and can be removed by careful use of the slightly dampened polishing cloth.

Fine scratches can be caused by rubbing a dusty piano with cloth which gathers the particles of grit and dirt that damage the the polyester and cause a haze of fine scratches. This will eventually dull the gloss finish. Always remove surface dust with a very light dusting, before attempting to polish the piano.

A piano is a precious item and do not experiment with products that could create even more damage to the finish. There are products used by professional tuners/technicians which can rapidly effect amazing results on superficial damage to the polyester.

Simple, commonsense care should keep your piano looking like new. In the event of damage to the finish, always leave it for the professionals to repair.

Good luck!

Robert.

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#1926750 - 07/14/12 04:07 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
Johnkie Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/04/11
Posts: 664
Loc: England
Wax on polyester finishes only builds up to form a surface that eventually attracts dust and makes a mess of the finish. The only thing to use should be a good quality damp wash leather. If the finish does get scratched then professional buffing would be needed as Robert45 has already said. For very slight marks, sometimes very careful use of jewellers rougue will do the trick .... but never wax polish! wink
_________________________
Concert Tuner & Technician for the past 49 years in the United Kingdom
and Member of the Pianoforte Tuners' Association (London)
www.jphillipspianoservices.freeindex.co.uk : E-mail jophillips06@aol.com

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#1926769 - 07/14/12 05:04 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1110
Loc: Qubec, Canada
Do not use wax.

Any good quality rubbing compound can be used. I use 3M and Meguiar's products. Use 100% cotton cloth or microfiber cloth. Don't be afraid to hand rub vigorously until the finish actually warms up. And then just wipe clean.
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

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#1926774 - 07/14/12 05:28 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2328
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
+1 on the Meguirs products. In particular, they make a polish called Meguiar's s Mirror Glaze #9 Swirl Remover which can be found in marine supply stores and auto finishing stores. Also the Meguiar's Mirror Glaze #17 Plastic Cleaner works really well for polishing out slight surface scratches. You can find #17 at most automotive supply places. Motorcycle supply stores also carry a number of plastic polishes used for removing haze and surface scratches in clear motorcycle fairing windshields.

Always completely dust off the piano with a quality duster before wiping with any cloth. It is usually the tiny bits of grit and dirt in this dust that causes the swirly's and scratches in the first place when just going at it with a cloth.


Edited by Emmery (07/14/12 05:29 PM)
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1926776 - 07/14/12 05:32 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: Emmery]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1110
Loc: Qubec, Canada
Originally Posted By: Emmery
+1 on the Meguirs products. In particular, they make a polish called Meguiar's s Mirror Glaze #9 Swirl Remover which can be found in marine supply stores and auto finishing stores. Also the Meguiar's Mirror Glaze #17 Plastic Cleaner works really well for polishing out slight surface scratches. You can find #17 at most automotive supply places. Motorcycle supply stores also carry a number of plastic polishes used for removing haze and surface scratches in clear motorcycle fairing windshields.

Always completely dust off the piano with a quality duster before wiping with any cloth. It is usually the tiny bits of grit and dirt in this dust that causes the swirly's and scratches in the first place when just going at it with a cloth.


+1
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

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#1926778 - 07/14/12 05:36 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1110
Loc: Qubec, Canada
Meguiars final inspection is also great for day to day dusting, plus it smells great!
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

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#1927082 - 07/15/12 12:51 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
ZBGM0 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 96
Thank you (all of you) very much for answers. So, I will not use wax.

You are right, micro scratches are probably result of dusting piano. That’s why I use feather duster now.

I will try with this two Meguiar’s products. I don’t want to complicate about scratches, but because they are not deep and piano is still new, I will try to remove them.

Can you just please confirm that I am looking the right two products:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Meguiars-Swirl-R...47d&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Meguiars-Clear-P...610&vxp=mtr

Thanks

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#1927088 - 07/15/12 01:01 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2328
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Yep, those are the right products. You might want to try the #17 first, as it is the milder of the two from my experience, and may suffice by itself. As with any finishing surface product, try it in a small inconspicuous spot first. Also, cover the tuning pins with a cloth or plastic to prevent any of the powder residue from finding its way in there. These polishers will strip any previous products like wax that may have been on there, and it mixes in with the residue.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1927090 - 07/15/12 01:04 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3244
Beware of feather dustres too. I had one with something sharp in it, and it gave me a scratch (on my computer screen, not on my piano)

I had a very fine haze that seemed to be very fine scratches on one place on my black high polish grand. I used this with good results. it is white stuff so I assume it will work on non-black high gloss pianos as well.

http://www.gtrmusic.co.uk/ghs-guitar-gloss-nonwax-polish-p-143.html

_________________________

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#1927154 - 07/15/12 04:09 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: wouter79]
wayne walker Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 515
Loc: Windsor,Nova Scotia Canada
Originally Posted By: wouter79
Beware of feather dustres too. I had one with something sharp in it, and it gave me a scratch (on my computer screen, not on my piano)

I had a very fine haze that seemed to be very fine scratches on one place on my black high polish grand. I used this with good results. it is white stuff so I assume it will work on non-black high gloss pianos as well.

http://www.gtrmusic.co.uk/ghs-guitar-gloss-nonwax-polish-p-143.html



good for guitars, but not for piano's polyester finish
_________________________
Wayne Walker
Walker's Piano Service
http://www.walkerpiano.ca/

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#1927180 - 07/15/12 05:03 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
ZBGM0 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 96
Ok, thanks again Emmery. I will report about results as soon I get the product. I will see if I can get it in our country, if not, I will order it on E-bay.

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#1927189 - 07/15/12 05:27 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2313
Loc: Lowell MA
Allied Piano sells Konig products.

http://www.alliedpiano.com/

Konig manufactures products specifically for polyester finishes.

For some reason I can not find the German site for Konig ..

Talk to Ruth at Allied, she is very knowledgeable.
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#1927193 - 07/15/12 05:36 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1110
Loc: Qubec, Canada
König makes really high quality products, but I don't think they sell liquid compounds. Their polyester is super, and their pastes for buffing wheels are unsurpassed. But they are products for the shop.

Here is their website.

http://www.heinrichkoenig.de/en/startseite
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

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#1927387 - 07/16/12 07:10 AM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
Larry Buck Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/27/04
Posts: 2313
Loc: Lowell MA
Konig has a complete group of products for use by hand on polyester.

And, they also have liquid compounds.
_________________________
Has Anyone Seen My Glasses ?

E. J. Buck & Sons
Lowell MA 01852
978 458 8688
www.ejbuckpiano.com
www.finepianodevelopment.com

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#1927477 - 07/16/12 11:21 AM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1110
Loc: Qubec, Canada
I stand corrected, thanks.
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

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#1927499 - 07/16/12 11:50 AM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3244
>good for guitars, but not for piano's polyester finish

I asked two techs and both thought it would be OK

It worked OK

What's wrong with it?
_________________________

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#1927643 - 07/16/12 05:15 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: wouter79]
Emmery Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 2328
Loc: Niagara Region, On. Canada
Originally Posted By: wouter79
>good for guitars, but not for piano's polyester finish

I asked two techs and both thought it would be OK

It worked OK

What's wrong with it?


If you read the literature on it, it mentions a lot of finishes like paint, lacquer's, metal, brass ect... it doesn't mention polyester specifically...thats a big red flag for starters.

Polyester is over 2 3/4 times harder than standard lacquers and 4 times harder than a standard nitro-cellulose lacquer. Also, a polish may add sheen to many softer finishes found on guitars that rate in the range of 50-60 degrees, but polyester alone has a sheen of 90-95 degrees by itself and polishes are not needed to add sheen....polishes with fine compound in them are designed to remove surface swirls and scratches within that high sheen.
_________________________
Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region

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#1927687 - 07/16/12 06:50 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: Emmery]
wayne walker Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 515
Loc: Windsor,Nova Scotia Canada
Originally Posted By: Emmery
Originally Posted By: wouter79
>good for guitars, but not for piano's polyester finish

I asked two techs and both thought it would be OK

It worked OK

What's wrong with it?


If you read the literature on it, it mentions a lot of finishes like paint, lacquer's, metal, brass ect... it doesn't mention polyester specifically...thats a big red flag for starters.

Polyester is over 2 3/4 times harder than standard lacquers and 4 times harder than a standard nitro-cellulose lacquer. Also, a polish may add sheen to many softer finishes found on guitars that rate in the range of 50-60 degrees, but polyester alone has a sheen of 90-95 degrees by itself and polishes are not needed to add sheen....polishes with fine compound in them are designed to remove surface swirls and scratches within that high sheen.



and it leaves a greasy film on the polyester


Edited by wayne walker (07/16/12 06:50 PM)
_________________________
Wayne Walker
Walker's Piano Service
http://www.walkerpiano.ca/

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#1927840 - 07/17/12 02:30 AM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3244
Quote:

If you read the literature on it, it mentions a lot of finishes like paint, lacquer's, metal, brass ect... it doesn't mention polyester specifically...thats a big red flag for starters.


Quote:
and it leaves a greasy film on the polyester

Check
http://www.ghsstrings.com/accessories/category/ghs-lubricants-and-cleaners
It says "Polishes and protects modern or traditional lacquers and paints. Shines tuning machines, hardware, knobs, pickguards, pickup covers, pianos, brass instruments. No waxy buildup."

Sounds all right to me. I can testify it leaves no visible greasy film

Quote:
Polyester is over 2 3/4 times harder than standard lacquers and 4 times harder than a standard nitro-cellulose lacquer.


So what?

Quote:
Also, a polish may add sheen to many softer finishes found on guitars that rate in the range of 50-60 degrees, but polyester alone has a sheen of 90-95 degrees by itself and polishes are not needed to add sheen....


My experience with the GHS stuff is that it gives a shine matching the other parts of my grand. So that must be the 90-95 degrees.

Quote:
polishes with fine compound in them are designed to remove surface swirls and scratches within that high sheen.


Yes. and that's what GHS seems to be doing right. And that's what OP askes for?


Edited by wouter79 (07/17/12 02:31 AM)
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#1935900 - 08/01/12 03:34 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
ZBGM0 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 96
One more question. I heard that microfiber cloth is made of polyester and that’s why we should not use microfiber cloth when polishing with Meguiar’s. Explanation is because polyester will scratch polyester. Is that true? And if it is, what should we use than?

Thanks.

P.s.: I ordered the product (Meguiar’s) but I am still waiting for it.

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#1936121 - 08/01/12 11:53 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1730
Loc: Philadelphia area
I remember Meguiar's instructions saying "soft cotton cloth".

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#1936165 - 08/02/12 02:38 AM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
Olek Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 6350
Loc: France
Polishes without silicones . it may be written on the bottle.

I believe some are water based actually (3M)

A polish is scratching the surface, then a finer one is used then a finer, but the foam used to pass the polish have to be adapted to its strenght.

WHen too much micro scratches , polishes containing silicones are used, so once every 6 months is yet largely enough (and you cannot avoid finger prints) the silicone quantity matters, of course.
Yamaha was providing a heavily loaded product 20 years ago, given to the customer with any new piano.

Deer skin is ideal as long as the case is clean of scratches, if you can keep it without any "oily" product that is far better in the long run IMO.
_________________________
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#1949966 - 08/27/12 05:35 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
ZBGM0 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 96
Thanks for answers.

I tried Meguiar’s Mirror Glaze Plastic Cleaner 17 and Swirl Remover 9. No result. There was technician at my house and accidentally he also had buffer machine (I don’t know if this is correct word in English to describe this thing) in his car. I ask him to polish this small scratches and they were immediately gone.

The scratches were micro of the micro-scratches, they were only seen if you put the light at the right angel and you also had to look at the right angel, but the reason that Meguiar’s 17 and 9 don’t work is probably because the finish is “hard finish” – no matter how hard you rub with your hand it just doesn’t go away.


OK, I have a question about microfiber cloth. I have to say that I am quite confused here. Members of this forum are always talking about HIGH QUALITY microfiber cloth. I am looking for a good microfiber cloth but there is description on almost every cloth:” high quality” and it can costs only 3 $. How can I know if it is really high quality? I used search function and tried to find some specific “high quality” microfiber cloth. I only found so called “Ultimate Wipe Detailing Polish Cloth” but google says it doesn’t exist. What I found is “Meguiars Car Care Ultimate Wipe Detailing Cloth«,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Meguiars-M9910-C...c05&vxp=mtr

I don't know if this is the same thing. It costs only 2,59 $ but in description it is mentioned that this is very special high quality cloth. Suspicious again – very low price.

I also found this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fender-Guitar-Me...=item35bf42bf1b

What do you suggest me to buy? I need specific brand and model. I have Cory cleaner cloth but it looks exactly the same as some cheap Chinese rubbish (I have both and I even have a feeling that Chinese cloth is more gentle and soft – opinion based on touch).

Thanks.

P.s.: Kamin, clicked your link below and looked the pictures that you put on the internet. It was interesting to watch your work.



Edited by ZBGM0 (08/27/12 06:22 PM)

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#1949979 - 08/27/12 06:02 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
accordeur Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1110
Loc: Qubec, Canada
100% cotton is hard to beat, especially after having been washed a few times. Old worn white t-shirts are the best. Fruit of the loom etc...


Edited by accordeur (08/27/12 06:03 PM)
_________________________
Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

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#1950166 - 08/28/12 01:50 AM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: accordeur]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1429
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: accordeur
Old worn white t-shirts are the best.

yes
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1950453 - 08/28/12 03:25 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
ZBGM0 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 96
But I heard that it is easier to scratch with cotton? I hear every time different story. What is now the truth:)? All I need is to buy a quality cloth for keeping it clean.

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#1951486 - 08/30/12 12:09 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
eightyeight_keys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/20/08
Posts: 383
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
I have the same scratches on my new Kawai RX6. It was in the shop 2 or soy ears before I bought it and some idiot " polished" it with a dirty cloth and rubbed in all the dust and grit resulting in micro and some dealer scratches. These can be seen mainly when the light is shone at certain angles. When the light is right I am horrified by the amount of scratching on this piano!

I have been told NOT to use those microfiber cloths by a piano polisher and restorer. You must use soft cotton cloth, like terry cloth. Those yellow cotton car polishing cloths which can be purchased at car parts shops.

I am yet to attempt a re polish of my piano. Previous polishing attempts have failed. The micro swirl scratches are still there and very obvious.

One product that's been suggested is Brasso. Followed by Turtle Wax Scratch and Swirl remover, followed by Turtle Wax colour cure plus black. By the way, Turtle Wax is a brand name, there is no "Wax" in these products.

Any comments are welcome.

Thanks
_________________________
Kawai RX6G Grand
Bernstien/Hailun Europa BH - 1EP Upright
Roland HP-335 Digital Piano
Yamaha W7 Synthesizer
Roland E09W Interactive Arranger

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#1951678 - 08/30/12 07:18 PM Re: poslishing small scratches [Re: ZBGM0]
Jeff Clef Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 4393
Loc: San Jose, CA
Darlene uses cotton baby diapers, many-times-washed, to dust the pianos in her store.

Similarly, I use soft, 100% cotton bandannas when waxing my piano or cleaning the keys. I say "wax" but it's Cory's, and they call it "Piano Polish," not wax. I don't know what's in it exactly.

As far as I can tell, there is no power in heaven or earth to keep those tiny scratches off a poly piano finish in dusty California. But the only place they show much is on the horizontal pieces of wood at the ends of the music rack, and even there not enough for me to start grinding the polish with an abrasive product. I would call an experienced refinisher.

Turtle Wax does, by the way, list carnuba wax as one of its main ingredients. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnuba_wax

http://www.turtlewax.com/detail--Carnauba-Cleaner-Wax-Paste-0-46.aspx
"Wash and dry car. Apply on a cool clean surface, not in direct sunlight. Apply a small amount of product onto a damp applicator and spread evenly on one section at a time. Allow to dry to a haze. Remove excess with a soft cloth. Buff lightly for maximum shine. Not intended for use on vinyl, wood, or flat paint."
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