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#1951448 - 08/30/12 10:41 AM Yamahas
joe80 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 957
OK, So I'm on the hunt again, for a new piano.

My Brodmann is good, very good actually, and considering the price etc, but, it's just not refined enough. I need something that can go much softer, much faster, and will be a bit more reliable and robust.

So far I've tried the latest Yamaha C7, C6 and C3XA. The most refined of the bunch was the C3XA - with the widest dynamic range. The C6 was excellent, and comes up trumps on the bass, but doesn't have the qualities of the C3XA.

The C7 is beautiful, but perhaps just a bit too big for what I need, and again, not quite as refined as the C3XA. I'm going to try the C6XA when there is one in London and then take it from there.

I tried the Avantgrands, all models, but they weren't for me. Good pianos, but not when I can have a grand. Perhaps I'll get the silent version of whatever I go for, perhaps I'll just stick with the digital I have.

Anyway it DOES mean that I'm soon going to have to start thinking about selling or trading in my Brodmann, so I'll see what the better option is over the next year or so.

I'm also going to look at Kawais. I was very impressed with the Yamahas but I should give both a fair hearing as I'll only get one shot at this.

Does anyone else have any other ideas about what I should be looking at in the price range?

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#1951460 - 08/30/12 11:07 AM Re: Yamahas [Re: joe80]
jawhitti Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/01/12
Posts: 234
Can you say a bit more about the C3XA? It's far our of my price range but I've heard it's a much more mellow sound than the stock C3? (which in turn is mellower than it used to be)? It sounds like a wonderful piano. How did its tone compare to the C6? As I posted the other day I really admire the feel and sound of the C6.

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#1951505 - 08/30/12 12:50 PM Re: Yamahas [Re: jawhitti]
joe80 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 957
Originally Posted By: jawhitti
Can you say a bit more about the C3XA? It's far our of my price range but I've heard it's a much more mellow sound than the stock C3? (which in turn is mellower than it used to be)? It sounds like a wonderful piano. How did its tone compare to the C6? As I posted the other day I really admire the feel and sound of the C6.


How can I put it. It's much more responsive, much more intuitive. It's not a matter of brighter or mellower, since a certain amount of voicing, and playing over time, can push a piano either way within reason.

The XA has a longer sustain, a new level of clarity, so that you can hear every note exceptionally well - yet it is even more cohesive as an instrument than the other C class, which are very good pianos.

The action responds differently - but it's the same action as in all the other C3s, it's just that the whole piano is responding differently.

Also, the control that you gain in the XA class gives you an unparalleled level of pianissimo control, and STILL the ability to sound every note. Yet, of course, it can be as loud as you could want.

The ONLY advantage the C6 has over the C3XA is that it is a bit warmer in the bass. That's why I want to try the C6XA. I think that's the one I might end up going for - although maybe not, because these things can surprise you.

Play it, it's the only way.

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#1951522 - 08/30/12 01:11 PM Re: Yamahas [Re: joe80]
Melodialworks Music Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/05
Posts: 1309
Loc: Canada
Very interesting. Tomorrow I will be comparing a C3 (which I have played, and like) side-by-side with a C3XA (which I have not played. I do a lot of solo contemporary piano favouring a softer, and more sustained style. So, the comments you have made about the XA would seem to be right up my ally!

Lawrence


Edited by Melodialworks Music (08/30/12 01:19 PM)
_________________________
Melodialworks Music
Yamaha C3X
Yamaha CP300 + Omnisphere
Yamaha NU1 + Production Grand

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#1951602 - 08/30/12 04:00 PM Re: Yamahas [Re: joe80]
Entheo Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 1111
Loc: chicago, il
the c3xa that i played completely turned me around to yamahas (i now own a c7). the c3xa had such beautiful color; i just kept coming back to it. i did also play a c6xa, but it didn't make the same impression, possibly because it had just arrived and hadn't had a chance to settle in.
_________________________
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#1951636 - 08/30/12 05:41 PM Re: Yamahas [Re: joe80]
master88er Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/15/07
Posts: 790
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Originally Posted By: joe80
OK, So I'm on the hunt again, for a new piano.

My Brodmann is good, very good actually, and considering the price etc, but, it's just not refined enough. I need something that can go much softer, much faster, and will be a bit more reliable and robust.

So far I've tried the latest Yamaha C7, C6 and C3XA. The most refined of the bunch was the C3XA - with the widest dynamic range. The C6 was excellent, and comes up trumps on the bass, but doesn't have the qualities of the C3XA.

The C7 is beautiful, but perhaps just a bit too big for what I need, and again, not quite as refined as the C3XA. I'm going to try the C6XA when there is one in London and then take it from there.

I tried the Avantgrands, all models, but they weren't for me. Good pianos, but not when I can have a grand. Perhaps I'll get the silent version of whatever I go for, perhaps I'll just stick with the digital I have.

Anyway it DOES mean that I'm soon going to have to start thinking about selling or trading in my Brodmann, so I'll see what the better option is over the next year or so.

I'm also going to look at Kawais. I was very impressed with the Yamahas but I should give both a fair hearing as I'll only get one shot at this.

Does anyone else have any other ideas about what I should be looking at in the price range?


Considering the size of the pianos you are contemplating, have you tried a Brodmann 212? As you know, action geometry changes significantly in pianos larger than 6' and you will get more dynamic sensativity in larger instruments. To fairly compare the C7 and C6, or even the larger CX3A to a Brodmann, the 212 would be the closest comparable model,not your BG-187 (which today is the vastly different PE-187).
_________________________
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SF Area Dealer: Steingraeber•Grotrian•Sauter•Estonia•Kayserburg•Baldwin•Brodmann•Ritmüller
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#1951649 - 08/30/12 06:08 PM Re: Yamahas [Re: joe80]
Gatsbee13 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 462
Loc: So Cal
I just played the Brodmann PE-187 over the weekend at a store.. What a fine piano! they had it next to a smaller ritmuller, yamaha c7, steinway B, and bechstein..

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#1951842 - 08/31/12 02:51 AM Re: Yamahas [Re: joe80]
joe80 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 957
I'm intrigued. What is vastly different between the BG187 and the PE187?

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#1951846 - 08/31/12 02:58 AM Re: Yamahas [Re: joe80]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13976
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
BG 187 is actually the PE 187, this has caused some confusion before.
I also concur with master88: apples have to be compared to apples meaning equivalent size pianos. The new Yamaha C3XA sounds interesting, unfortunateley I've never seen one of them before.
Presuming you are shopping at Chris Venables: consider yourself in best of hands! thumb
I had always particularly impressed with the recording quality of the various pianos on his website,
best wishes and very best luck yo you,
Norbert smile


Edited by Norbert (08/31/12 03:09 AM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1951903 - 08/31/12 06:39 AM Re: Yamahas [Re: joe80]
joe80 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 957
So there is no difference between the BG 187 and the PE 187 (other than, not two pianos are the same)? I mean, the Brodmanns are excellent pianos, of course they are or I wouldn't have bought one. I just feel that it's time to get something that I can get more out of, and, will get more out of me. The better the piano, in my experience, the better the pianist becomes - if they are really listening. This is because the possibilities are greater.

Faziolis and Steinways for instance, show up every flaw in the playing because they are built to such high tolerances. The C3XA is just about matching that level of response. I can't afford a Steinway or Fazioli. No way.

I was actually in Chappell of Bond Street, by virtue of the fact London is much easier to get to for me.

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#1951945 - 08/31/12 08:48 AM Re: Yamahas [Re: joe80]
joe80 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 957
Anyway I shouldn't go to Chris Venables because I'd only come back with a CF6 bought from our savings and credit cards, and then I'd be found dead floating off the coast of Holland in three weeks time. My partner would have a lovely piano, however.

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#1951977 - 08/31/12 09:39 AM Re: Yamahas [Re: joe80]
Chopinlover49 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/11
Posts: 612
Loc: NY and NC
Our local Yamaha dealer got in a C3XA and it was a very fine piano. Nice tone, fairly smooth touch. Quite a bit more money than the regular C3 however. Yamaha is just not quite the sound I like, but it was a very pleasant playing experience, more refined than most Yamahas I have tried.
_________________________
2004 Mason-Hamlin polished ebony BB.
Working on jazz standards and Chopin nocturnes, preludes, and mazurkas (the easier ones.)

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#1951997 - 08/31/12 10:17 AM Re: Yamahas [Re: joe80]
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Originally Posted By: joe80

How can I put it. It's much more responsive, much more intuitive. It's not a matter of brighter or mellower, since a certain amount of voicing, and playing over time, can push a piano either way within reason.,,,,


The action responds differently - but it's the same action as in all the other C3s, it's just that the whole piano is responding differently.


If you were in the US, price and spotty availability would probably rule it out, but since Sauter prices in Europe are much more realistic than here, I'd suggest you tyr a Delta 185 from Sauter. It doesn't punctuate the notes like the Yamaha (not as much percussive vitaility), but really what does -- certainly not the Brodmann 187. However, IMO the Delta's action response to the whole piano is even more intuitive and can take you even further and deeper.

On your Brodmann, since many who read here seem to choose a piano by a process of elimination, it might be fair to mention that you've probably packed twenty years of average use into a few short years on your Brodmann.

Another thing I've observed is that though many shop for the piano of a lifetime (and rationalize a high budget based on that approach), it doesn't work out that way for working musicians and other heavy users. No matter the quality of the instrument, boredom eventually sets in and swapping out refreshes creativity.
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#1952005 - 08/31/12 10:36 AM Re: Yamahas [Re: turandot]
joe80 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 957
Originally Posted By: turandot
[quote=joe80]


Another thing I've observed is that though many shop for the piano of a lifetime (and rationalize a high budget based on that approach), it doesn't work out that way for working musicians and other heavy users. No matter the quality of the instrument, boredom eventually sets in and swapping out refreshes creativity.


That's a fair point, we get used to the same sounds every day, and then playing a different piano is like a breath of fresh air.

I've never actually fallen in love with a piano, not fully. I'm in love with music, and with piano music, and with playing piano, but for that reason, I like pianos which open up sound worlds.

As well as the slightly brighter Yamaha, I love really mellow Bluthners and Bosendorfers. They are a completely different voice, and I love them for the fact that they are different. I love the sound of the big American pianos - like the old Baldwins and Steinways, because they are again, different.

My Brodmann is a decent all rounder, I guess you could say, but it isn't a true artists piano.

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#1952030 - 08/31/12 11:38 AM Re: Yamahas [Re: joe80]
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13976
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Quote:
As well as the slightly brighter Yamaha, I love really mellow Bluthners and Bosendorfers. They are a completely different voice, and I love them for the fact that they are different. I love the sound of the big American pianos - like the old Baldwins and Steinways, because they are again, different.


Your perception is correct - there still is a divide of sorts.
For people with limited budgets, there is an amazing array of very good pianos on the market today. Most or all of them are either made in China, Indonesia, Japan or Korea.

Some of the more expensive Japanese pianos are now in same or similar price class as some proven Euro performers or American pianos like CW for example.

The question is if the former group has transgressed or transgressed enough the divide into those pianos with more complex and fundamental type sounds.

Only in this case can they be expected to keep their owners, especially advanced players among them, musically satisfied in the long run.

From my own observations I believe that, aside from some of the high end Japanese pianos, the divide still exists today.

best of luck

Norbert smile


Edited by Norbert (08/31/12 08:06 PM)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#1952053 - 08/31/12 12:26 PM Re: Yamahas [Re: joe80]
joe80 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 957
It's true that even the standard Yamaha C3 is knocking on the door of the Sauters and Schimmels price wise, although the C6 and C7 are still priced quite far below the European competition. The larger grands, in otherwords, are priced a bit less than you'd expect. Perhaps that's because they save the high prices for the S and CF series pianos. The S and CF pianos are excellent though, and the S series competes in quality with most other high end pianos but is much lower in price than the equivalents from Steinway.

I suspect with the CF4 and CF6 Yamaha haven't built to a price, but have just decided to build the best possible instruments that they can, and then priced them accordingly. I think that's why they've taken the decision to make them look so different from the rest - and rightly so. I've tried the CFX, but not the CF4 or 6 yet. It goes without saying that the CFX is wonderful. Whether it's the ultimate concert grand I don't know, there are pianists on here with far more experience in concert halls with concert grands who could say more.

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#1952231 - 08/31/12 06:11 PM Re: Yamahas [Re: joe80]
Kurtmen Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 632
Loc: San Mateo, CA
I have tried a C3XA and C6XA. Both were very nice but also well built quality instruments. I did like the texture of the keyboard besides the tone and action.
By far some of the best pianos built by Yamaha.


Edited by Kurtmen (08/31/12 06:16 PM)
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#1952327 - 08/31/12 09:59 PM Re: Yamahas [Re: joe80]
j&j Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/09
Posts: 438
Loc: Southwest
I tried the C3XA and later the C6XA. Wow, gorgeous sound and very responsive. The treble was clear and bell-like and the bass was deep but mellow. I thought both compared beautifully with the Schimmel Konzerts.

**If I piano shop again I'm going to find myself divorced and sleeping under an underpass! shocked
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#1953263 - 09/03/12 06:30 AM Re: Yamahas [Re: j&j]
xentis Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/09/11
Posts: 13
Loc: Munich, Germany
I also like the C3XA very much. I tried 2 of them and both were very impressive, much better than the normal C3. I also tried a C6XA, but it was not so much better than the normal C6.

An absolutely awesome instrument is the CF6. The touch of the mechanic is the best i ever played on a grand piano. The tone is in a way i ever wished to hear from a Steinway B or C, but i never found one. cool

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#1953377 - 09/03/12 01:03 PM Re: Yamahas [Re: joe80]
Wzkit1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 21
Loc: Singapore
What's the difference between the C3X and C3XA? I presume the CX series is completely different from the CF series?
_________________________
Sauter 185 Delta, Shigeru Kawai SK6

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#1953381 - 09/03/12 01:10 PM Re: Yamahas [Re: joe80]
Wzkit1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 21
Loc: Singapore
When I was in the market back in 2005, the S4 was priced about the same as the Sauter Delta 185 back here in Singapore, and the S6 was even more expensive.
By comparison, the equivalent sized Shigeru SK6 was priced almost a third less than the Yamaha S6. No doubt, the S6 is a very nice piano with the very reliable action - though in my opinion not yet with a refined enough tone to justify paying 30% more than the Shigeru and as much as a Sauter.

I'm looking forward to seeing the new CF series and see how they are priced relative to the S series and other German makes
_________________________
Sauter 185 Delta, Shigeru Kawai SK6

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#1953385 - 09/03/12 01:13 PM Re: Yamahas [Re: turandot]
Wzkit1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 21
Loc: Singapore
Originally Posted By: turandot


If you were in the US, price and spotty availability would probably rule it out, but since Sauter prices in Europe are much more realistic than here, I'd suggest you tyr a Delta 185 from Sauter. It doesn't punctuate the notes like the Yamaha (not as much percussive vitaility), but really what does -- certainly not the Brodmann 187. However, IMO the Delta's action response to the whole piano is even more intuitive and can take you even further and deeper.


I'm certainly biased, but can't agree more on the tone of the Sauter. On the touch, the meatier touch does take a little bit more getting used to, but if you do manage to master it, the range of colours and control that it offers the player - especially on the pianissimo end of the dynamic range - is quite unequalled in my experience, even compared to many Steinways I have tried.
_________________________
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#1954602 - 09/06/12 05:18 AM Re: Yamahas [Re: joe80]
joe80 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 957
The other pianos I'm going to give a fair hearing to, when I get the opportunity are the two larger Brodmann grands. The 212 and 228. I haven't played them yet so I don't know what they're like, and at their price point, I could keep Brodmann 1 as my pounder piano. Perhaps the Brodmann Artist series will give me the range I'm looking for?

Does anybody else have experience with them?

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