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#1955355 - 09/07/12 10:37 AM Taking Advantage of YouTube
TromboneAl Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 781
Loc: Northern, Northern California
I've found that YouTube is an amazing resource for jazz piano ideas, tunes, and concerts.

Here are some ways that I use Youtube to help with my playing. I'm leaving aside issues of copyright and fairness. The content downloading that I do is for personal, non-commercial use.

Audio

Whenever I'm working on a new tune, I find several instances of it on YouTube and download them to see how others interpret the tunes. I might then use "Best Video Downloader" to download the audio for listening away from the computer.

http://www.bestvideodownloader.com/

It's very easy to use: once installed, a "Download" button appears below all youtube videos, and you simple click it and select what format you want to download. If you choose "mp3" of "m4a" it will download an audio file that you can burn to disk.

If you don't want to install anything, you can go to http://www.mediaconverter.org/ , and enter the URL of the youtube video you want, then follow the instructions.

You can then import the audio into your iPod or iPhone, enter tune title and artist, etc.

Video

I recently discovered that I can download high-def concert videos from youtube, burn them to DVD then watch them on my large flat-screen TV from the comfort of my couch. This beats sitting at my laptop. Even the non-HD videos look pretty good on the big TV.

This is a good one:



To do this, download the video as described above (but choose the MP4 video format), then use DVDFlick (dvdflick.net) to convert it to DVD format and burn it to a DVD.

Hope that works for you!
_________________________
- Al

My Book: Becoming a Great Sight-Reader -- or Not!
My Blog: The Year of Piano Sight-Reading

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Piano & Music Accessories
#1955396 - 09/07/12 11:56 AM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: TromboneAl]
R0B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 1432
Loc: Australia
Or, if you have a laptop and tv, equipped with HDMI ports, save yourself the hassle and cost of a blank DVD, and connect directly.
_________________________
Rob

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#1955762 - 09/08/12 04:28 AM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: R0B]
Steve Nixon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/18/10
Posts: 216
Loc: Chicago
The problem is Diana is not getting paid for her performance. The original source file was taken illegally.

Just because the technology exists to rip her gig doesn't mean it's fair.

I personally know she's put in years of hard work and dedication to her craft and that should be respected from an economic standpoint.

So, why don't you buy the performance instead of ripping it for free? It's not very much money. http://www.amazon.com/Diana-Krall-Live-Rio-Blu-ray/dp/B001VS46DM

Money circulates in this industry..it's not static. When we buy music and keep money circulating through the arts it leads to more gigs, more support for the arts, more music fans, and better music...and we all win that way.

There are less gigs for everybody if we continue to bleed money out of the industry like this.

IMO musicians need to respect other musicians in this way. I know it's not the big picture solution to the problem but it's a start at least. As musicians we know better and should do more.


-----------------


One more thought....now some people may say, "Well Diana's rich and famous so she won't miss the extra money." To that I would say...what about the other musicians on stage?

I can assure you they'll miss the extra money. They're working musicians with families and bills to pay just like the rest of us.

_________________________
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#1955790 - 09/08/12 09:08 AM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: TromboneAl]
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3158

Great post, Steve. Thank you.
_________________________
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#1955818 - 09/08/12 09:57 AM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: TromboneAl]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Steve

While I understand where you are coming from, I feel like you are Over simplifying message by saying support the artist by buying their CD/DVD. The problem is that with the current model of distribution, money isn't really circulating to the musician, it's mostly going to the middle man.

This infograph shows just how much money musicians actually make from their CD's and DVDs on major labels. For every $1000 of music being sold, the musician makes about $23.40

http://i.imgur.com/aTBIS.png

Here's an article by Courtney Love on this issue. She also quotes figures on how much bands make per album (which is around 10-15 cents/CD
http://www.salon.com/2000/06/14/love_7/

So if this is true, the out of the $14 you pay for Diana Krall's DVD on amazon, she is going to get maybe .25 on it. And let's not forget, she makes nothing if you buy a used copy.

Finally this is the worst case scenario.

http://imgur.com/HK3ER

I know this is a lot of legwork for us, but If you want to support an artist we really need to make sure the money is going to where it's supposed to.


IMO if you really want to support the artist, you should go see them live, because more of your money goes directly to the artist. Also, the music industry is changing, so I think it's important that we be on the lookout for for these musicians and see if they are distributing music through different channels. Some musicians sell their music directly from their websites and they profit more that way. I know Louis CK(Comedian), Radiohead and other entertainers/musicians have tried different methods and have been very successful. It may be rare now, but we might be seeing more of this in the near future.

Louis CK
http://buy.louisck.net/news/a-statement-from-louis-c-k

EDIT: Just be clear, this is mainly about someone on Major record label like Diana Krall. But either way, I think consumers have to be more aware


Edited by etcetra (09/08/12 10:17 AM)

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#1956084 - 09/08/12 06:54 PM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: Steve Nixon]
TromboneAl Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 781
Loc: Northern, Northern California
Originally Posted By: Steve Nixon
The problem is Diana is not getting paid for her performance. The original source file was taken illegally.


Maybe you know the answer to the question I've had about this: If it's true that Diana Krall would not want this illegally uploaded content on YouTube, why hasn't she (or Verve) instructed YouTube to take it down?

One possible answer is that there are just too many videos, and it would take too much time to do that. However, I'd think Verve could do it pretty efficiently, even have an app to notify youtube of the copyright infringements.
_________________________
- Al

My Book: Becoming a Great Sight-Reader -- or Not!
My Blog: The Year of Piano Sight-Reading

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#1956105 - 09/08/12 07:30 PM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: TromboneAl]
Steve Nixon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/18/10
Posts: 216
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: TromboneAl
Originally Posted By: Steve Nixon
The problem is Diana is not getting paid for her performance. The original source file was taken illegally.


Maybe you know the answer to the question I've had about this: If it's true that Diana Krall would not want this illegally uploaded content on YouTube, why hasn't she (or Verve) instructed YouTube to take it down?

One possible answer is that there are just too many videos, and it would take too much time to do that. However, I'd think Verve could do it pretty efficiently, even have an app to notify youtube of the copyright infringements.



Excellent question Al. I think all of this is happening in the background as we speak...

There are so many lawsuits going on behind the scenes w/ record labels and content distributors it's almost dizzying.

For example:

record labels suing youtube downloader site
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/ar...ng-site/244037/

Viacom's $1,000,000,000 lawsuit
http://mashable.com/2007/03/13/viacom-youtube/

Also, the Verve UK office was just forced to close as a result of money.
http://www.jazzwisemagazine.com/news-mai...office#JOSC_TOP

Here's record labels suing Grooveshark
http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ng-grooveshark/


Here's the thing...like I said before we as musicians know deep down what is involved in making great music...time, blood, sweat, tears, emotions, money, sacrifice, discipline, etc.

It's only fair that we respect our fellow artists.
_________________________
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www.freejazzlessons.com

Blues Piano Masterclass on DVD
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Learn Piano Online
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#1956113 - 09/08/12 07:53 PM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: etcetra]
Steve Nixon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/18/10
Posts: 216
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: etcetra
The problem is that with the current model of distribution, money isn't really circulating to the musician, it's mostly going to the middle man.

EDIT: Just be clear, this is mainly about someone on Major record label like Diana Krall. But either way, I think consumers have to be more aware


Totally agree here. Whether or not major labels create fair contracts is definitely an excellent question and a valid debate.

Even if it's diluted there is still money involved that artists should be receiving.

Independent artists that aren't on major labels are being taken advantage of as well. The problem is even worse for them.

_________________

Here's a different way of looking at taken from my own life.

I'm a full time musician. I happen to be an internet geek too. So, I know at least 15 different ways of getting free Barry Harris recordings online.

Would it be nice to not spend that $7 bucks on his album and spend it on something else?

Maybe, but the thing is though I've learned so much from Barry's music that I feel indebted to him as a musician. I feel like I should pay him and so I do.
_________________________
Free Jazz Piano Lessons Online
www.freejazzlessons.com

Blues Piano Masterclass on DVD
http://www.learnbluespiano.net/

Learn Piano Online
http://www.pianolessonsonline.com

Online Jazz, Blues, & Rock Piano Lessons
http://stevenixonmusic.net/lessons.cfm

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#1956131 - 09/08/12 09:05 PM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: TromboneAl]
TromboneAl Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 781
Loc: Northern, Northern California
The ethics of the issue are clear: You should not listen to a minute of youtube video content that was uploaded without the artist's permission. I'm saying that seriously and not sarcastically.

But that's such a hard standard to live up to. Let's say I'm going to play Bye Bye Blackbird. I search on Youtube and see this video:



Should I not listen to it?

If I decide it's OK to (a) listen to it, where do I draw the line? Can I (b) listen to it any time I'm on the Internet? Can I (c) download it so that I can listen when I'm not online? (d) Can I put it on my iPod? (e) Can I burn a CD to share it with the other guys in my band?

Note that b, c, d and e are simply more convenient options than a.

What if my library has that CD, and I can take it out any time and listen?

Then I find these:







Saying that the artist doesn't get much money, or that I'm not going to buy those albums anyway, or that Keith Jarrett ruins the recording by making noises with his mouth are justifications for something that is clearly wrong.

I think most of us will decide that we will at least listen on youtube even though it is not ethically right.

I guess the rewards are just too tempting.
_________________________
- Al

My Book: Becoming a Great Sight-Reader -- or Not!
My Blog: The Year of Piano Sight-Reading

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#1956146 - 09/08/12 10:10 PM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: TromboneAl]
Steve Nixon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/18/10
Posts: 216
Loc: Chicago
I agree that in today's society the line is not as clear as it could be.

_________________________
Free Jazz Piano Lessons Online
www.freejazzlessons.com

Blues Piano Masterclass on DVD
http://www.learnbluespiano.net/

Learn Piano Online
http://www.pianolessonsonline.com

Online Jazz, Blues, & Rock Piano Lessons
http://stevenixonmusic.net/lessons.cfm

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#1956220 - 09/09/12 05:11 AM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: TromboneAl]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Tromboneal and Steve Nixon,

Here's my take on it. I remember my teachers bootlegged A LOT of music, and they had no problem sharing that with us. They were always lending out CD's to students to listen to. A lot of the CD's and bootlegs are of people he's worked with, or something he bootlegged himself, but as far as I know, his musician friends didn't mind either.

I think the benefit we got is that we were able to absorb more music than we were able to because the music was free to us. It also allowed us to go see live music instead of buying CDs.

This is a difficult issue because different musicians have different take on file-sharing. Some bands like Radiohead embrace it, and feels that the exposure they get from it helps them more than it hurts them. Some might actually appreciate the fact that you are listening to them on youtube!

Besides copyright laws are kind of messed up, and it seems like the original creator of art really isn't rewarded enough for their work, and it can easily be exploited by people who's sole purpose is to make profit.

Here's a brief history of Amen break that's relevant to the issue.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SaFTm2bcac

If it was up to me, I wish I could just donate $ directly to the artist. I feel ambivalent about paying for CD, knowing that how the industry works, and I am feeding into that system. I guess that's why for me, I'd rather focus on supporting live music in general. I am much more inclined to buy a CD if I know it's self-produced.

So tromboneal, to answer you question, if we are going to listen to all that music for free(and everyone here is guilty of it I suppose), then maybe we should just be more active supportive live music, where musicians are making most of their money. It's not the perfect solution, but at least you are contributing somehow. Besides considering how cedar walton is playing in half empty venue last time I saw him jazz does need more audience.


On the other hand, I think it's musicians' responsiblity to figure out better method of distribution too.

I think this comic shows how the music industry change, and how it can change for the better.
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/music_industry


Edited by etcetra (09/09/12 05:38 AM)

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#1956516 - 09/09/12 04:50 PM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: etcetra]
mmart Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/24/12
Posts: 2
Hello all,

regarding the Diana Krall and Youtube discussion,
let's not forget that Youtube make money from advertisement that are shown along the videos and it's quite possible that they share this revenue with the artists.

More here
YouTube Ads Turn Videos Into Revenue

just a quote:
When someone uploaded a recording of the Eminem song “Not Afraid,” for instance, instead of taking down the recording, YouTube ran pop-up ads that let people buy the song or the ring tone and shared the revenue with the copyright owner.

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#1957221 - 09/11/12 01:21 AM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: Steve Nixon]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Steve Nixon
The problem is Diana [and the combo, and the orchestra] is not getting paid for her performance. The original source file was taken illegally.

Just because the technology exists to rip her gig doesn't mean it's fair.


Bravo, Steve! And you are not the only one who is voicing the concerns. Here is a thread I started on the Teachers' Forum. It would be nice to keep it in the forefront of folk's minds.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1935590

Ed
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1957307 - 09/11/12 06:53 AM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: TromboneAl]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: TromboneAl
The ethics of the issue are clear: You should not listen to a minute of youtube video content that was uploaded without the artist's permission. I'm saying that seriously and not sarcastically.


I can't agree with that. Who do you think owns the publishing rights to these videos? Do you think it is the artists? Of course it isn't, it is the record companies, many of whom have licensing deals with youtube which allows their content to be shown. Even the big companies seem to be close to a licensing deal (as far as I can tell - not that I am any kind of expert).
If the owner of the copyright is allowing youtube to show the content then there is nothing remotely unethical about watching it.

In short the ethics are far from clear in my view. The issues are beyond complicated.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#1957391 - 09/11/12 10:55 AM Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: beeboss]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: beeboss
. . . Who do you think owns the publishing rights to these videos? Do you think it is the artists? Of course it isn't, it is the record companies, many of whom have licensing deals with youtube which allows their content to be shown. Even the big companies seem to be close to a licensing deal (as far as I can tell - not that I am any kind of expert).
If the owner of the copyright is allowing youtube to show the content then there is nothing remotely unethical about watching it.

I agree, BeeBoss, that the issues are complex, but in this case, Steve is not complaining about the arrangements that are made “above board”.
Originally Posted By: Steve Nixon
The problem is Diana is not getting paid for her performance. The original source file was taken illegally.


We recently had a similar thing happen to “one of our own” on this Forum. There is a highly skilled player and teacher who has his instructional material professionally published, and it is for sale. Many on this very Forum have purchased such material, including me. Suddenly, and without any sort of official agreement, one of his DVDs has been pirated, and is appearing “for free” on YouTube.

Every bit of this “everything is free” mentality adds to the dilution and decay of the music profession as we know (knew) it. Every single bit!

Ed
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1957403 - 09/11/12 11:18 AM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: TromboneAl]
Kbeaumont Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 242
Loc: Virginia, USA
It is not up to the watcher to police YouTube and assume everything commercial is not to be watched. That's ludicrous, it's the copyright holder's responsibility. And YouTube does remove content that it has received notice of.

Since it is much easier for the copyright holder to search their stuff and get it removed than have YouTube check every single upload and verify it only makes sense. And as pointed out, having stuff on YouTube can be as valuable as having it on the radio. Radio has been hit time and time again for 'Pay to Play' which is illegal. So obviously for commercial success its best to get stuff out there. Ask Justin Bieber where he would be without YouTube.
_________________________
A long long time ago, I can still remember
How that music used to make me smile....

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#1957425 - 09/11/12 12:11 PM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: LoPresti]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
[quote=Steve Nixon]The problem is Diana is not getting paid for her performance. The original source file was taken illegally.


But my point was that we have no idea if the source file was taken illegally because we have no idea about the relationship between the copyright holder and the licensing agreement they may or may not have with youtube, and we have no details about the person who has shared this content or of the views of the copyright holders about that.
In this particular case we know nothing about any of this so it is impossible for us to make any assessment about the legality (or ethicality).

The reality is that many companies are happy for this kind of content to be available because some people see the video then go on to buy the dvd, which leads to profits for the record company (but probably not for Diana's band).

Originally Posted By: LoPresti

We recently had a similar thing happen to “one of our own” on this Forum. There is a highly skilled player and teacher who has his instructional material professionally published, and it is for sale.


If I remember correctly didn't this member provide a link to that video?
My point is that frequently the record companies do not act in the interest of their artists. I personally know of musicians who have been trying to buy back the rights of the own music that was recorded many years ago from labels that just leave it in the vault (there being no real money in re-releasing it). The musicians often want their music to be available rather than sitting in the vault, even if it is for free, but record companies are not interested in anything but profits.

Originally Posted By: LoPresti


Every bit of this “everything is free” mentality adds to the dilution and decay of the music profession as we know (knew) it. Every single bit!


I don't think there is a decay of the music profession. I believe that standards of musicians and the availability of live music for the audience have never been higher (this a bit of a generalisation, local conditions vary). It certainly is harder to make a living now for many musicians but this is mainly because there are so many amazing musicians around chasing not enough jobs. The systems are changing that is for sure, and there is no way back to the old model. Who knows where it will lead but I am all for getting information into the public domain. I think is just amazing that we can now see endless videos of old concerts and tv material that we could have never dreamt of seeing only a decade ago. Many of these performances by the great musicians deserve to be heard and should be available for all eternity in the great library of human culture (and not controlled by a few self-serving global entertainment corporations).
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#1957444 - 09/11/12 01:00 PM Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: beeboss]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: beeboss
I don't think there is a decay of the music profession. I believe that standards of musicians and the availability of live music for the audience have never been higher (this a bit of a generalisation, local conditions vary). It certainly is harder to make a living now for many musicians but this is mainly because there are so many amazing musicians around chasing not enough jobs. The systems are changing that is for sure, and there is no way back to the old model. Who knows where it will lead but I am all for getting information into the public domain. I think is just amazing that we can now see endless videos of old concerts and tv material that we could have never dreamt of seeing only a decade ago. Many of these performances by the great musicians deserve to be heard and should be available for all eternity in the great library of human culture (and not controlled by a few self-serving global entertainment corporations).


Well, BeeBoss, we certainly think about this subject very, very differently. Without going point-for-point with you, which most will not take the time to read or digest, I’ll leave it simply with a question:
*Is YouTube (for example) really “the public domain”, as you suggest, or is it just another of your “few self-serving global entertainment corporations”?

. . . and with an old saying:
*When you have everything, you cherish nothing.
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1957492 - 09/11/12 03:17 PM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: LoPresti]
beeboss Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1171
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
*Is YouTube (for example) really “the public domain”, as you suggest, or is it just another of your “few self-serving global entertainment corporations”?




Youtube of course is in it for the profit (google are taking over the world), but the videos on youtube are in the public domain in the sense that anybody (more or less) can access them and view them for free. They are not owned by youtube and youtube does not control the content
(except when copyright owners complain and videos get removed).
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/davebeeboss

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#1960662 - 09/18/12 12:44 PM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: Steve Nixon]
TromboneAl Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 781
Loc: Northern, Northern California
--- I deleted some text here, because it did seem argumentative - Al

I'm not trying to be argumentative here -- just exploring the issue.



Edited by TromboneAl (09/18/12 08:00 PM)
_________________________
- Al

My Book: Becoming a Great Sight-Reader -- or Not!
My Blog: The Year of Piano Sight-Reading

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#1960761 - 09/18/12 05:30 PM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: TromboneAl]
Steve Nixon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/18/10
Posts: 216
Loc: Chicago
Sounds like a plan.


Edited by Steve Nixon (09/18/12 08:14 PM)

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#1960833 - 09/18/12 08:03 PM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: TromboneAl]
TromboneAl Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/12/04
Posts: 781
Loc: Northern, Northern California
Hey, Steve, I'm sorry that my post seemed argumentative, and I removed it for that reason. I respect your ethics, and ideas on this fascinating topic.

I guess my bottom line is that I agree that copying illegally uploaded youtube videos or even sharing them on the web is indeed ethically wrong. It's also ethically wrong to drive a few miles per hour above the speed limit, but it's hard to resist those kinds of things.


Edited by TromboneAl (09/18/12 08:14 PM)
_________________________
- Al

My Book: Becoming a Great Sight-Reader -- or Not!
My Blog: The Year of Piano Sight-Reading

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#1960840 - 09/18/12 08:08 PM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: TromboneAl]
Steve Nixon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/18/10
Posts: 216
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: TromboneAl
Hey, Steve, I'm sorry that my post seemed argumentative, and I removed it for that reason. I respect your ethics, and ideas on this fascinating topic.


Likewise Al! I respect your opinion as well.

One of the reasons I love this particular forum is that people are friendly 99.9% of the time smile

There are lots of great players here and good people too.

_________________________
Free Jazz Piano Lessons Online
www.freejazzlessons.com

Blues Piano Masterclass on DVD
http://www.learnbluespiano.net/

Learn Piano Online
http://www.pianolessonsonline.com

Online Jazz, Blues, & Rock Piano Lessons
http://stevenixonmusic.net/lessons.cfm

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#1962056 - 09/21/12 12:13 PM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: TromboneAl]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Just found this interesting article.

http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/permalink/2012/120919jamestaylor

"In 2007, James Taylor initiated an audit of his royalty payments dating back to 2004. In that three-year span, Taylor and his accounting firm, Gelfand, Rennert & Feldman, LLC, found underpayments totaling $1,692,726." and

"(3) Warner Bros. subsequently paid only $97,857 of that balance."

As I pointed out earlier, we don't know whether artists are making money when people put music on youtube, but the same thing can also be said about buying their CDs. They are not even getting the 10-15% cut of they are supposed to get and they have to fight tooth and nail to get a portion of it back.

Again I am not against supporting the artist, but I don't buy the whole idea that piracy is primarily responsible for destroying the financial well-being of these artists.


Edited by etcetra (09/21/12 12:24 PM)

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#1962134 - 09/21/12 03:04 PM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: etcetra]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: etcetra
"In 2007, James Taylor initiated an audit of his royalty payments dating back to 2004. In that three-year span, Taylor and his accounting firm, Gelfand, Rennert & Feldman, LLC, found underpayments totaling $1,692,726." and

"(3) Warner Bros. subsequently paid only $97,857 of that balance."


. . . And exactly how much do you suppose Taylor may have recovered from YouTube under the same conditions?

In fact, etcetra , I am inclined to agree with you, in that artists have been grossly taken advantage of for years. Unscroupulous business practices depend upon the non-business mind-sets of artists, and greed takes over in some cases. But I still contend that this everything-free-for-everyone mentality of YouTube has not only facilited the non-payment to these serious artists, but has actually INVITED the pirating of their work.

There are many other implications, not the least of which is this: If I have virtually everything that McCoy Tyner (for example) has ever played available at all times for me to view and listen, I will probably be less inclined to pay $75++ to hear and see him live, at a real venue, with real sound. That situation might seem good to you -- it seems bad to me.

Ed
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1962158 - 09/21/12 03:49 PM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: LoPresti]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Originally Posted By: LoPresti
[quote=etcetra]has ever played available at all times for me to view and listen, I will probably be less inclined to pay $75++ to hear and see him live, at a real venue, with real sound. That situation might seem good to you -- it seems bad to me.

Ed


Actually based on my experience, most people I know are the exact opposite. They founded out about McCoy Tyner through listening youtube and other forms of legal/illegal downloads. If it wasn't for those things they would probably never have went to a single jazz concert let alone McCoy Tyner.

Like I said, as music students with very limited budget, most of my friends borrowed music and ripped them, In fact the teachers were giving out mp3s of his/her bootlegs!! If it wasn't for that we wouldn't have went to see all those live jazz shows either.

In either case, Most people who went to see live performances end up going to see their favorite artists pretty regularly. You'll be hard pressed to find someone who wouldn't go see a live concert because they can listen to the mp3s at home.


Originally Posted By: LoPresti

. . . And exactly how much do you suppose Taylor may have recovered from YouTube under the same conditions?



I know I've mentioned this, but some artists believe that the exposure they got from youtube and other places actually helped them more in the long term. So unless there is a tangible study on pros/cons of piracy vs the current model(i.e John Taylor's situations), then I am not going to say which one is better or worse. As Neil Young puts it "Piracy is the new radio. That's how music gets around" Some see it as a threat, some see it as an opportunity.

I've read Gabe Newell(Valve) saying how "Piracy(in video games) is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem.", and it's amazing how he is able to generate a lot of profiting through his Steam service. Likewise Louis CK and Radiohead made a huge profit selling their stuff on their own.

I think the attitude of these people I mentioned above is that they don't mind piracy as long as they are getting exposure. There will always be people with free-for-all mentality but they trust that those who really enjoy their work with support them and buy their products, and having that kind of attitude is far better than treating their potential customers like freeloaders and punishing them for it.

While I think it's important to spread the message of supporting the artists, I also think that the music industry will have to somehow find a different way of distributing music. You are not going to stop piracy and change the mentality that is already there. "STOPPING online piracy is like playing the world’s largest game of Whac-A-Mole."

"http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/05/sunday-review/internet-pirates-will-always-win.html?_r=1"



Edited by etcetra (09/21/12 04:00 PM)

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#1962212 - 09/21/12 05:33 PM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: etcetra]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Does anyone other than me remember the term propaganda? Propaganda is a most powerful tool, and has been around for a very long time. Propaganda was the primary method used to marshall the citizens of one of Europe’s most intelligent and advanced countries, behind one of the most brutal and heinous dictators of all time.

Propaganda makes things APPEAR different than they really are. It puts a different slant on bad things to make them seem good, and visa versa. It uses rhetoric to convince people that they are not as powerless as they feel.

Depending upon what it is attempting to “prove” at the time, propaganda can make folks believe things are getting better, when all the facts point to the exact opposite.

With the current proliferation of “media”, propaganda has never before been so widely used (and abused!) In its highest, most artistic form, propaganda not only makes people believe that wrong is right, but it then gets those same duped people to actually acclaim in unison how right things are! Pretty powerful stuff . . . and the really insidious part is that we take it so much for granted, it is almost transparent to us.

Ed
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1962246 - 09/21/12 06:51 PM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: TromboneAl]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
Great, so you are reducing my side of argument are merely a propaganda? Do you realize I can just as easily say your argument is propaganda that is fueled by the Big Record Companies?

I am merely presenting an argument from a different side. There are legitimate cases for and against piracy, and I think I've cited sources from different well-known musicians, entertainers, businessmans, who doesn't embrace the whole piracy=evil view and actually came out ahead in their field because of that.

Let's face it, I doubt that anyone here has legal purchased all the music they've listened to. Most of the well-known musicians I know do own quite big collection of bootleg stuff. Did musician's cry foul when people were recordings stuff off the radio from cassette tape?

I am not going to go into too much detail about piracy but often times, piracy happens partly because the market is not responding the demand out there. If it was up to the record companies, we would still be selling singles for $5 a pop still. Napster forced the change in market which eventually led to creation of itunes.

Next time if you want to argue, please stick to actual arguments and ideas that you can support with some kind of evidence, rather than using an empty rhetoric about propaganda. The "Truth" as you call it, isn't so black and white as you'd like to believe.



Edited by etcetra (09/21/12 07:10 PM)

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#1962349 - 09/22/12 12:01 AM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: etcetra]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: etcetra
Great, so you are reducing my side of argument are [sic] merely a propaganda? Do you realize I can just as easily say your argument is propaganda that is fueled by the Big Record Companies?

He protesteth too much, methinks!

I was not referring specifically to you, or any of your arguments, but rather to the wide-spread belief that things among musical artists, and in the music business in general, are better now than in the past. The facts contradict that notion, yet we are told to believe it. That is textbook Propaganda.

I would have made the same assertion about cassette tapes being "better" than LP vinyl. I would have had the same complaint about CDs being "superior" to reel-to-reel. In mildest form, it is advertising, and in the extreme it is grand-scale brainwashing. And it is usually targeted to make the unsuspecting firmly believe that the latest thing is undenyably the best ever.

Does the profile fit?
_________________________
In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.

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#1962367 - 09/22/12 01:39 AM Re: Taking Advantage of YouTube [Re: TromboneAl]
etcetra Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 1446
I don't think anyone here is saying that things are better, Some things are changed for the better, some changed for worse. Some people are actually better off because of the change. Where I live, there are more people listening to jazz thanks in part by availability of music on internet.

It's about things not being what they used to be and you probably can't expect things to work like they used to. A lot of professions do become obsolete if you don't move with time, and music is no exception.

I am not sure what you mean about the second paragraph either. Of course all those media formats have their advantages/disadvantages, but one thing that can be said for sure is that the newer generations of media format are more portable&convienient. People aren't buying mp3's over CD's and cassettes because they are brainwashed, but in a society that values portability, mp3's are the preferred format. It's just meeting the demand of the market.


Edited by etcetra (09/22/12 01:41 AM)

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