Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome

http://www.casiomusicgear.com/sounds

The sound samples from the Privia sound good. Though they may be samples for the higher end PX-850

No. All of those audio samples are of the current PX-130, PX-330, PX-830.

Hi Mike!

When will be available the new audio samples of the new digital pianos?

Neither model is available to try yet, but the Casio is offering a multi layered paino sample. The Yahama has only a single layer piano sample which will offer less dynamic range. The Casio also has an Ivory matted keys which should allow your fingers to grip the keys better. It seems on paper, the Casio has newer and more technology than the Yahama. Casio tends to offer a lot of bang for the buck. From what Mike Martin of Casio says, the action on their new models is new and is improved over the previous generation of Privias. In the end it all comes down to what you as an individual like so make sure you try before you buy.

I am actually tempted just to order a 350 this week without trying it- but will wait. I think it offers a nice amount of variety and editing functions as well

We don't know that the P105 is single layer. Also, the number of layers, technically, has no impact on the dynamic range, though it does allow for greater timbre variation between strikes at different velocities.


Based on the P95 and PX130/PX330, I'd probably disagree... but it's kinda like disagreeing about which tastes better, worms or maggots. (Actually, the way I remember is is that the Yamaha tone was better, but the velocity mapping made it unsatisfying to play.)

Please sir, I want some more.

Scott,
I'm pretty sure, the P-105 is a single layer sample it's just using a CF sample. I actually like the way a Yahama piano sounds, but unfortunately the GHS action kills this model for me. Yahama could go toe to toe with Casio, I just don't think they care much about the sub $1000 price range. They know they can sell their product line on their name alone, and know they can make more money on their upper end models that have more margin.

In the owners manual though on the description of each sound, it does imply that there are different levels on the grand piano sound- from my recollection it does mention change in possibly timbre was the term they used across different levels.
However, as you said they did not upgrade their action, and I am not sure they upgraded the non AP sounds, it does seem they added perhaps a Wurlitzer as Casio has them.
I am eager to hear how the speakers are.

I don't know where you got that impression, but I just checked the manual, and it clearly says that the Grand PIano 1 preset "uses different samples depending on the playing strength."

http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=en&site=au.yamaha.com&asset_id=57343

RE: Product Support [ ref:_00D105HEf._50010B9IlA:ref ]

The information you are seeking is propriety information and hence we cannot help you with an answer in this regard.

Thank You

Yamaha Customer Support

--------------- Original Message ---------------
Subject: Product Support

Wanted to know how many layers of sound sample are there in the newly launched P-105 and the P-95 digital piano. Is it a single layer or 3-4 layer sample.


ref:_00D105HEf._50010B9IlA:ref


This is Yamaha's reply on asking them about the sample layers in the P-105.

Propriety Information!!!!!! When its available in the manuals and public domain......

Layers is another example where I've come to decide that knowing the answer just doesn't matter. I've played "4 layer" pianos that I thought did not play as well or sound as good as pianos with fewer layers. So while knowing how many layers is of some academic interest to me, the actual knowledge turns out to be of no practical use in selecting a piano.

For example, Dewster says his tests show the P95 to have a single layer, yet even that single layer piano plays better to me than some multi-layer pianos.

Along the same lines, I remember playing a Korg SP-170 and discerning, I believe, three velocity layers... but the shift from the lowest to the second lowest was so abrupt that the piano would have been better if they had eliminated the lowest layer level and simply continued making the next layer up quieter instead!

Good catch!

Cue Sargent Schultz. Honestly, it's like a comedy show every time you ask the simplest questions of Yamaha Customer Support. With a single (non)response to every conceivable question, those guys must have the easiest job in the world.

I don't believe it's fair to criticise Yamaha on this point - I expect asking Roland, Kawai, Casio, Korg, etc. the same question would result in a similar answer. Technical support staff exist to provide usability assistance or resolve issues with a product - not to answer countless queries from tech geeks. Indeed, Yamaha in particular are highly regarded for their excellent technical support.

Cheers,
James
x

Casio is over on another thread telling us how many bits they get from the keyboard action. Roland has entire multimedia extravaganzas telling us that SN doesn't loop and the layers are blended. Korg is pretty up-front about layers and sample size. Kawai is completely sampled (no stretching) and talks about it. It's been my experience as well that Yamaha is particularly bad about clamming up completely when faced with reasonable questions about their technology. From potential customers no less. At this point layers are old hat, I can't imagine they'd reveal anything proprietary by telling us the count in any of their DPs (though for some models it might be embarrassing for them).


Gosh, I think layer count is pretty important and not at all geeky. It's like asking how many pistons are in the car you're considering buying. Synth companies used to shout this stuff (ROM size, layers, etc.) from the rooftops. What changed?

Software pianos.

Not sure I follow.

I'm guessing they don't want you to realize how archaic the on-board stuff is. As a cpu engineer, I badly want to gut one of these slabs, and develop my own dp brains, lol.

The companies that you say are upfront are upfront with the things that they think will show them off, it's usually very selective. Casio will tell you about their layers and bit resolution because it makes their board sound more impressive for the money. But how many megabytes is Casio's piano sample? I doubt you can find out. (They do, however, say that it is 3x what it was before!)

Roland is among the most secretive, Sure, Roland tells you that their modeled piano has no layers and no loops and so forth, but they are not giving you specs, they are telling you why typical specs don't matter. Back when they ostensibly did, I don't think they told you how many layers they had. In fact, even today, they won't tell you which, if any, of the piano sounds on the RD-700NX are on the FP-4F, or Jupiter 80 (among others). Do they have sounds in common or not? The same piano name on two models may not have the same sound; different names on different models may refer to the same sound; who knows? Trade secret, apparently.

Yamaha has promoted how many layers their pianos have numerous times in the past. Probably, they will do it when they think it will give them a competitive advantage, they will avoid it if they think it might not. With Casio promoting 4 layer pianos, it is no longer in Yamaha's interest to publicize that theirs is anything less, regardless of whether it is one, two, or three, as it will prompt someone to look more seriously at their competitor.

Apple doesn't tell you how much RAM is in an iPad, either. They don't need to. It distracts from their strengths (the actual operation of the device) and gives competitors a way to try to convince consumers that their device is better than Apple's. Likewise, if Yamaha has fewer layers than their competitors, it distracts from their potential strength (the actual sound) and gives a selling point to their competitors.


I actually do think that, for most who are not geeks like us, the information really isn't all that useful anyway. As I always say, specs don't matter, sound does. It helps Casio to promote some of their specs because it may prompt people to take an extra look at them. But often specs are provided to convince you something is good. If it really is, you'll know when you play it. Maybe the new Casio will sound better than the new Yamaha, maybe not... but either way, the fact that it may have, say, four layers instead of three, would not be a reason to buy it, although Casio may like to persuade you otherwise!

edit: I do think that, all else being equal, more layers should be better than fewer, but all else is never equal. If a new Yamaha piano has more layers than its predecessor, it will probably represent an improvement. But whether it has more or fewer layers than some other brand's pianos is where I feel the comparison is pretty meaningless, in that there are likely so many other kinds of sonic differences between the different brands' pianos, that the difference between, say, three or four layers would probably not be among the biggest causes of differences in how they sound.

To be clear, I personally am a keyboard geek so I do like to know this stuff! But I don't think most of it is really relevant to a buying decision, and I do understand why sometimes companies are shy about releasing the info.