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#1957974 - 09/12/12 05:24 PM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: anotherscott]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8891
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
bsl100, I expect an update to the Yamaha P155 will be announced at NAMM or Musikmesse, and will likely include an LCD display to compete with the Roland FP-7F and Kawai ES7.

For your employer's sake, I hope Yamaha does not come out with a $1000 P155 replacement that can really compete with the $2000 Rolands and Kawais. ;-)

At the moment, I guess their FP-7F/ES7 competitor is the CP-300. It has been a while, I wonder if they will come out with a new high end portable with speakers.


Don't forget that the P155 is far cheaper in the US than other parts of the world. In Europe, for example, the P155 is almost the same price as the ES7. Therefore, I still believe the P155 is Yamaha's closest competitor to the ES7 (outside of the US, at least) - actually, the FP-7F is considerably more expensive.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1957975 - 09/12/12 05:37 PM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: Kawai James]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Don't forget that the P155 is far cheaper in the US than other parts of the world.

Ah!

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#1958064 - 09/12/12 09:40 PM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: anotherscott]
bsl100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/10
Posts: 131
IMHO the CP300 does not offer the bells and whistles of the ES7/FP-7F. It does have better speakers though. But the weight is a disadvantage.

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#1958065 - 09/12/12 09:47 PM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: Possum SP280Krome]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8891
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
bsl100, have you heard the ES7's speakers?
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1958069 - 09/12/12 10:09 PM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: Kawai James]
bsl100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/10
Posts: 131
No, I haven't. Its the output specs that I was referring to. What I was implying was that the CP300 is in a different category compared to the other two boards.

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#1958071 - 09/12/12 10:22 PM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: Possum SP280Krome]
bsl100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/10
Posts: 131
I'm in the market for a lighter alternative to the P-155 for Church use for my daughter. With a few bells and whistles if possible. The P-105 is an option, though I'll be compromising on the key action. As I had mentioned, we have a Clavinova CVP503PE for home use. Wanted to remain in the Yamaha universe as others also use the same styles and rhythms and practice at home will be easy on the Clavinova. The DGX 640 is a bit heavy to cart around. That's the reason I was hoping that Yamaha can come up with something like the PX-350, which is like a lightweight option of the DGX with better polyphony and connectors.

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#1958075 - 09/12/12 10:33 PM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: bsl100]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8891
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: bsl100
No, I haven't. Its the output specs that I was referring to. What I was implying was that the CP300 is in a different category compared to the other two boards.


Ah, I see. Yes, you're right, the CP300 occupies a slightly different category to the FP-7F, ES7, and P155. Actually, it's something of a cult board for this reason.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1958148 - 09/13/12 04:56 AM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: Possum SP280Krome]
Carlos Almeida Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 10
Loc: Portugal
Hi everyone!

In your opinion, what is the best buy: Yamaha P105 or Casio Privia PX-150?
Which one has better piano sounds and keys?

Cheers,
Carlos
_________________________
Yamaha P-105 (+ L-85 and Proel GF01 Damper Pedal)

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#1958154 - 09/13/12 06:09 AM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: Carlos Almeida]
Possum SP280Krome Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 616
Originally Posted By: Carlos Almeida
Hi everyone!

In your opinion, what is the best buy: Yamaha P105 or Casio Privia PX-150?
Which one has better piano sounds and keys?

Cheers,
Carlos

Good morning Carlos and welcome to the forum!
Although neither board has been out yet here is my speculation:
The speakers on the PX-150 might be better based on the speakers from the previous models.
The PX-150 will have simulated ebony and ivory touch.
In terms of the keys-you would have to try them out yourself and decide- this is the most subjective area.
The PX-150 will offer a few more variations of the main piano sound and a brilliance setting to make it darker or brighter.
The Yamaha will typically offer one piano sound and then a brighter version of it while Casio will offer a bright,mellow,classic,modern and then a 5th one.
*In my opinion though the Rhodes is better on the Casio.
_________________________
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Korg Krome 61
Korg SP280

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#1958161 - 09/13/12 07:08 AM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: Possum SP280Krome]
Carlos Almeida Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 10
Loc: Portugal
Thanks for the reply, Possum P95! It is a pleasure to be here in the forum. I'm really undecided on which one to buy, so all your opinions are welcome. You're right, the PX-150 has more variations off the main piano sound... +1 for Casio laugh


Edited by Carlos Almeida (09/13/12 07:09 AM)
_________________________
Yamaha P-105 (+ L-85 and Proel GF01 Damper Pedal)

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#1958173 - 09/13/12 08:03 AM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: Possum SP280Krome]
bsl100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/10
Posts: 131
http://www.casiomusicgear.com/sounds

The sound samples from the Privia sound good. Though they may be samples for the higher end PX-850

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#1958214 - 09/13/12 10:04 AM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: bsl100]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
Originally Posted By: bsl100
http://www.casiomusicgear.com/sounds

The sound samples from the Privia sound good. Though they may be samples for the higher end PX-850


No. All of those audio samples are of the current PX-130, PX-330, PX-830.
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Casio America

Casio Music Forums
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#1958230 - 09/13/12 10:45 AM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: Mike_Martin]
Carlos Almeida Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/06/12
Posts: 10
Loc: Portugal
Hi Mike!

When will be available the new audio samples of the new digital pianos?
_________________________
Yamaha P-105 (+ L-85 and Proel GF01 Damper Pedal)

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#1958544 - 09/13/12 08:59 PM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: Carlos Almeida]
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 852
Loc: Lakewood, CA
Neither model is available to try yet, but the Casio is offering a multi layered paino sample. The Yahama has only a single layer piano sample which will offer less dynamic range. The Casio also has an Ivory matted keys which should allow your fingers to grip the keys better. It seems on paper, the Casio has newer and more technology than the Yahama. Casio tends to offer a lot of bang for the buck. From what Mike Martin of Casio says, the action on their new models is new and is improved over the previous generation of Privias. In the end it all comes down to what you as an individual like so make sure you try before you buy.

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#1958563 - 09/13/12 09:50 PM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: galaxy4t]
Possum SP280Krome Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 616
I am actually tempted just to order a 350 this week without trying it- but will wait. I think it offers a nice amount of variety and editing functions as well
_________________________
Roland Juno Gi
Casio PX-130
Korg Krome 61
Korg SP280

Rokit KRK 6 monitors
MXL V67G microphone

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#1958572 - 09/13/12 10:13 PM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: galaxy4t]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
Casio is offering a multi layered paino sample. The Yahama has only a single layer piano sample which will offer less dynamic range.

We don't know that the P105 is single layer. Also, the number of layers, technically, has no impact on the dynamic range, though it does allow for greater timbre variation between strikes at different velocities.

Originally Posted By: Possum P95
In my opinion though the Rhodes is better on the Casio.

Based on the P95 and PX130/PX330, I'd probably disagree... but it's kinda like disagreeing about which tastes better, worms or maggots. (Actually, the way I remember is is that the Yamaha tone was better, but the velocity mapping made it unsatisfying to play.)

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#1958576 - 09/13/12 10:20 PM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: anotherscott]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2691
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
... but it's kinda like disagreeing about which tastes better, worms or maggots.
Please sir, I want some more. sick grin
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PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
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#1958661 - 09/14/12 02:19 AM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: anotherscott]
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 852
Loc: Lakewood, CA
Scott,
I'm pretty sure, the P-105 is a single layer sample it's just using a CF sample. I actually like the way a Yahama piano sounds, but unfortunately the GHS action kills this model for me. Yahama could go toe to toe with Casio, I just don't think they care much about the sub $1000 price range. They know they can sell their product line on their name alone, and know they can make more money on their upper end models that have more margin.

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#1958696 - 09/14/12 05:35 AM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: galaxy4t]
Possum SP280Krome Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 616
Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
Scott,
I'm pretty sure, the P-105 is a single layer sample it's just using a CF sample. I actually like the way a Yahama piano sounds, but unfortunately the GHS action kills this model for me. Yahama could go toe to toe with Casio, I just don't think they care much about the sub $1000 price range. They know they can sell their product line on their name alone, and know they can make more money on their upper end models that have more margin.


In the owners manual though on the description of each sound, it does imply that there are different levels on the grand piano sound- from my recollection it does mention change in possibly timbre was the term they used across different levels.
However, as you said they did not upgrade their action, and I am not sure they upgraded the non AP sounds, it does seem they added perhaps a Wurlitzer as Casio has them.
I am eager to hear how the speakers are.
_________________________
Roland Juno Gi
Casio PX-130
Korg Krome 61
Korg SP280

Rokit KRK 6 monitors
MXL V67G microphone

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#1958705 - 09/14/12 06:26 AM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: galaxy4t]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
I'm pretty sure, the P-105 is a single layer sample

I don't know where you got that impression, but I just checked the manual, and it clearly says that the Grand PIano 1 preset "uses different samples depending on the playing strength."

http://download.yamaha.com/api/asset/file/?language=en&site=au.yamaha.com&asset_id=57343

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#1958732 - 09/14/12 08:11 AM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: Possum SP280Krome]
bsl100 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/03/10
Posts: 131
RE: Product Support [ ref:_00D105HEf._50010B9IlA:ref ]

The information you are seeking is propriety information and hence we cannot help you with an answer in this regard.

Thank You

Yamaha Customer Support

--------------- Original Message ---------------
Subject: Product Support

Wanted to know how many layers of sound sample are there in the newly launched P-105 and the P-95 digital piano. Is it a single layer or 3-4 layer sample.


ref:_00D105HEf._50010B9IlA:ref


This is Yamaha's reply on asking them about the sample layers in the P-105.

Propriety Information!!!!!! When its available in the manuals and public domain......


Edited by bsl100 (09/14/12 08:12 AM)

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#1958741 - 09/14/12 08:45 AM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: bsl100]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3159
Layers is another example where I've come to decide that knowing the answer just doesn't matter. I've played "4 layer" pianos that I thought did not play as well or sound as good as pianos with fewer layers. So while knowing how many layers is of some academic interest to me, the actual knowledge turns out to be of no practical use in selecting a piano.

For example, Dewster says his tests show the P95 to have a single layer, yet even that single layer piano plays better to me than some multi-layer pianos.

Along the same lines, I remember playing a Korg SP-170 and discerning, I believe, three velocity layers... but the shift from the lowest to the second lowest was so abrupt that the piano would have been better if they had eliminated the lowest layer level and simply continued making the next layer up quieter instead!




Edited by anotherscott (09/14/12 08:47 AM)

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#1958850 - 09/14/12 01:08 PM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: Possum SP280Krome]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4339
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Possum P95
In the owners manual though on the description of each sound, it does imply that there are different levels on the grand piano sound- from my recollection it does mention change in possibly timbre was the term they used across different levels.

Good catch!
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#1958854 - 09/14/12 01:21 PM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: bsl100]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4339
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: bsl100
The information you are seeking is propriety information and hence we cannot help you with an answer in this regard.

Thank You

Yamaha Customer Support

Cue Sargent Schultz. Honestly, it's like a comedy show every time you ask the simplest questions of Yamaha Customer Support. With a single (non)response to every conceivable question, those guys must have the easiest job in the world.
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#1958960 - 09/14/12 05:33 PM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8891
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: bsl100
The information you are seeking is propriety information and hence we cannot help you with an answer in this regard.

Thank You

Yamaha Customer Support

Cue Sargent Schultz. Honestly, it's like a comedy show every time you ask the simplest questions of Yamaha Customer Support. With a single (non)response to every conceivable question, those guys must have the easiest job in the world.


I don't believe it's fair to criticise Yamaha on this point - I expect asking Roland, Kawai, Casio, Korg, etc. the same question would result in a similar answer. Technical support staff exist to provide usability assistance or resolve issues with a product - not to answer countless queries from tech geeks. Indeed, Yamaha in particular are highly regarded for their excellent technical support.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1958987 - 09/14/12 06:27 PM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4339
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
I don't believe it's fair to criticise Yamaha on this point - I expect asking Roland, Kawai, Casio, Korg, etc. the same question would result in a similar answer.

Casio is over on another thread telling us how many bits they get from the keyboard action. Roland has entire multimedia extravaganzas telling us that SN doesn't loop and the layers are blended. Korg is pretty up-front about layers and sample size. Kawai is completely sampled (no stretching) and talks about it. It's been my experience as well that Yamaha is particularly bad about clamming up completely when faced with reasonable questions about their technology. From potential customers no less. At this point layers are old hat, I can't imagine they'd reveal anything proprietary by telling us the count in any of their DPs (though for some models it might be embarrassing for them).

Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Technical support staff exist to provide usability assistance or resolve issues with a product - not to answer countless queries from tech geeks.

Gosh, I think layer count is pretty important and not at all geeky. It's like asking how many pistons are in the car you're considering buying. Synth companies used to shout this stuff (ROM size, layers, etc.) from the rooftops. What changed?
_________________________
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#1958990 - 09/14/12 06:38 PM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Online   content
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8891
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: dewster
Synth companies used to shout this stuff (ROM size, layers, etc.) from the rooftops. What changed?


Software pianos.
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1958996 - 09/14/12 06:46 PM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4339
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Software pianos.

Not sure I follow.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1958998 - 09/14/12 06:55 PM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: dewster]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 570
Loc: Mt View, CA
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Software pianos.
Not sure I follow.
I'm guessing they don't want you to realize how archaic the on-board stuff is. As a cpu engineer, I badly want to gut one of these slabs, and develop my own dp brains, lol.


Edited by xorbe (09/14/12 06:55 PM)

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#1959036 - 09/14/12 08:39 PM Re: P105 or PX350? Advice and input needed/welcome [Re: dewster]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3159
Originally Posted By: dewster
Casio is over on another thread telling us how many bits they get from the keyboard action. Roland has entire multimedia extravaganzas telling us that SN doesn't loop and the layers are blended. Korg is pretty up-front about layers and sample size. Kawai is completely sampled (no stretching) and talks about it. It's been my experience as well that Yamaha is particularly bad about clamming up completely when faced with reasonable questions about their technology.

The companies that you say are upfront are upfront with the things that they think will show them off, it's usually very selective. Casio will tell you about their layers and bit resolution because it makes their board sound more impressive for the money. But how many megabytes is Casio's piano sample? I doubt you can find out. (They do, however, say that it is 3x what it was before!)

Roland is among the most secretive, Sure, Roland tells you that their modeled piano has no layers and no loops and so forth, but they are not giving you specs, they are telling you why typical specs don't matter. Back when they ostensibly did, I don't think they told you how many layers they had. In fact, even today, they won't tell you which, if any, of the piano sounds on the RD-700NX are on the FP-4F, or Jupiter 80 (among others). Do they have sounds in common or not? The same piano name on two models may not have the same sound; different names on different models may refer to the same sound; who knows? Trade secret, apparently.

Yamaha has promoted how many layers their pianos have numerous times in the past. Probably, they will do it when they think it will give them a competitive advantage, they will avoid it if they think it might not. With Casio promoting 4 layer pianos, it is no longer in Yamaha's interest to publicize that theirs is anything less, regardless of whether it is one, two, or three, as it will prompt someone to look more seriously at their competitor.

Apple doesn't tell you how much RAM is in an iPad, either. They don't need to. It distracts from their strengths (the actual operation of the device) and gives competitors a way to try to convince consumers that their device is better than Apple's. Likewise, if Yamaha has fewer layers than their competitors, it distracts from their potential strength (the actual sound) and gives a selling point to their competitors.

Originally Posted By: dewster
I think layer count is pretty important and not at all geeky.

I actually do think that, for most who are not geeks like us, the information really isn't all that useful anyway. As I always say, specs don't matter, sound does. It helps Casio to promote some of their specs because it may prompt people to take an extra look at them. But often specs are provided to convince you something is good. If it really is, you'll know when you play it. Maybe the new Casio will sound better than the new Yamaha, maybe not... but either way, the fact that it may have, say, four layers instead of three, would not be a reason to buy it, although Casio may like to persuade you otherwise!

edit: I do think that, all else being equal, more layers should be better than fewer, but all else is never equal. If a new Yamaha piano has more layers than its predecessor, it will probably represent an improvement. But whether it has more or fewer layers than some other brand's pianos is where I feel the comparison is pretty meaningless, in that there are likely so many other kinds of sonic differences between the different brands' pianos, that the difference between, say, three or four layers would probably not be among the biggest causes of differences in how they sound.

To be clear, I personally am a keyboard geek so I do like to know this stuff! But I don't think most of it is really relevant to a buying decision, and I do understand why sometimes companies are shy about releasing the info.


Edited by anotherscott (09/14/12 11:02 PM)

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