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Thank you.

Practicing left hand is for spreading the work load of right hand. For higher register, its easier for left hand in seating position. For base notes I use right hand. This is ergonomic. Base string leaned leftward. Play with left and tune with right hand have better posture. For treble note is just opposite. I also found use left hand, the hammer in ten o'clock is easier to raise pitch little by little.

The slow speed is due to low proficiency level. Take time to check interval directions. Evaluate tuning by playing chords in all keys. Then diagnostic for inconsistent colors and correction.

Although I think practice can improve speed, still looking for faster procedure.

For F3 - G#3 and A#4 - B4, I keep the thirds beat rate progressiveness.

After submitting last post, tuned all octaves.

For base notes use intervals. 10ths, Octave + 5ths, extended chords and dominant 7ths.

For double wound notes are difficult to align the intervals. C1 - A#0 tune with ETD then correct aurally.

For treble octaves, I use fifths, fourths and thirds to confirm tuning. Interval wider than octave not used.

No tuning tomorrow. Just enjoy the harmony. Away a few days let the brain cell to growth. Next week drop pitch and tune again. Or may be continue 6-Sept's tuning. Which one is better?

Regards,
Weiyan

..."Practicing left hand is for spreading the work load of right hand. For higher register, its easier for left hand in seating position. For base notes I use right hand. This is ergonomic. Base string leaned leftward. Play with left and tune with right hand have better posture. For treble note is just opposite. I also found use left hand, the hammer in ten o'clock is easier to raise pitch little by little."...

Thank you, Weiyan, for answering my question.

..."After submitting last post, tuned all octaves.

For base notes use intervals. 10ths, Octave + 5ths, extended chords and dominant 7ths.

For double wound notes are difficult to align the intervals. C1 - A#0 tune with ETD then correct aurally.

For treble octaves, I use fifths, fourths and thirds to confirm tuning. Interval wider than octave not used.

No tuning tomorrow. Just enjoy the harmony. Away a few days let the brain cell to growth. Next week drop pitch and tune again. Or may be continue 6-Sept's tuning. Which one is better?"...

If I may suggest, continue the 6-Sept's tuning, explore/relate high register 12ths, 15ths and 17ths with today's octaves. Alternatively, follow your inspiration. ;-)

Where have those lovely birds gone?

Regards, a.c.

In summer, a lot typhoon and always rainy. The birds are gone.

That's tune the high register similar to base? Never tried before. Let me try and may have questions.

Always thank you.

Hi Weiyan,

..."That's tune the high register similar to base?"...

Yes, it is similar to the base, mainly proceed with three Slow-Beating-Intervals intervals and further check (and perfect) with Fast-BI's. I use 8's, 12ths and 15ths... and check with 17ths. C7-C8... also check fifths, I like to hear them (apparently) pure.

..."Never tried before. Let me try and may have questions."...

You're welcome. Have a nice w.e.,

Alfredo
.

Hi Happy Monday.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/a-4-10-sep-2012

Tuned A#4.

First part is 10th chromatic down.

Then intervals, 5ths, 8ths, 10ths, 15ths, 17ths.

Is tuning this way?

Thank you;

Today's A4 is 441HZ, I dropped to 399Hz.

Objective of today's exercise:
Build up Ear / hand coordination.
Learn to trust my ear.

This can have faster tuning.

Tuning F3-B4 within 10 minutes.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-11-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-11-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-11-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-11-sep-2012

Hi Weiyan,

In order to reply properly I have to wait until tonight. For the time being, have a nice afternoon.

Alfredo

Hi Alfredo,

Thank you.

No hurry.

Hi Weiyan,

Let's see what follows:

..."Hi Happy Monday.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/a-4-10-sep-2012

Tuned A#4.
First part is 10th chromatic down.
Then intervals, 5ths, 8ths, 10ths, 15ths, 17ths.
Is tuning this way?"...

Yes, tuning requires going through chromatic intervals, interrelating (getting the most correct (univocal/coherent) relation amongst) all intervals and their chromatic beat-curves, all across the keyboard. This (only) can really shape a sound-whole.

If possible, listen to the 10ths again, you'll notice that the 10th on A4 is much slower than the previous (F#3-A#4, this beats fast) and equal beating with the next down (E3-G#4). Now, in this sequence (going down the bass)... beats must slow down progressively. See, in the case above, we have the first 10th very fast and the following two 10ths are much slower (and equal beating). Please, let me know if you can notice that.

The other intervals:

5th, D#-A#, make it closer to just
8th, as above
10th, Ok... tense
15th, 17th, Ok. Please note, in this range 15ths (on their own) are not much significant, as our ear is pretty "generous" here.

On your latest samples:

..."Today's A4 is 441HZ, I dropped to 399Hz.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-11-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-11-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-11-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-11-sep-2012

The base:

A3-A4: Ok...
A3-E4: make it narrow-closer to just
E4-A4: Ok
A3-D4: this beats about 2 bps, make it (wide) closer to 1 bps
D4-A4: as above, too much "movement", make it almost just (you want to invert the fifths beat rate progression)

Thirds:

A3-C#4: Too slow, about 3 bps, check C#4-F#4… very "salty" (very tense), raise C#4
A#3-D4: Ok, much faster than previous, let me know if you can hear that (we will correct your next tuning)
B3-D#4: Slower than previous, around 6 bps, more typical of E3-G#3
C4-E4: Ok, a bit too tense
C#4-F4: Ok, as above
D4-F#4: Ok, sweeter than previous (try to "feel" this difference)
D#4-G4: Ok, it gets less tense, make it go the other way around
E4-G#4: As above
F4-A4: Ok

..."Objective of today's exercise:
Build up Ear / hand coordination."...

Yes, it is "hands and ear (and breath/rythm)" coordination. Strangely enough, it may be more difficult when you go down in pitch. In general, make (feel) the pin rotate counter-clock and get to "just/narrow"; play a "forte" (for spreading the string's tension); now that your pitch is flat, (step one) get close to "just" only under pin torque/bending; then make the pin rotate (wide-clock-wise (*)) at its bottom (you may clearly feel that), change the hammer's position (on vertical at 12/11) and counter-charge the pin by exerting some steady/continuous force onto the hammer, towards the string and try to get to the "spot" with one more "forte".

(*) How much should the pin rotate... depends on the pin's elasticity, which you can evaluate in step one. In time, step-one will allow your brain to calculate the exact pin-rotation needed in order to get the wanted-pitch-as-the-result of pin-counter-charge.

..."Learn to trust my ear."...

You are right, and we can use two ears, one for intonation (meaning color, taste, feelings etc...) and one for beats rhythm, the latter being absolutely real and shareable.

..."This can have faster tuning."...

Yes, Weiyan, I agree. Can you get other pianos to work on?

Regards, a.c.
.

Thank you.
I can hear that. I am preparing for real production, so emphasis on speed.

This morning rasied about 6 cents. Pure aural except A4.

Finished in a few minutes.

D4 and G4 raised a little bit after recording.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-12-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-12-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-12-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-12-sep-2012

The next stage will be the most difficul: getting many pianos to practice.

Hi Weiyan,

You wrote:

…"I can hear that. I am preparing for real production, so emphasis on speed."…

That's good. Today we can compare also the two latest samples:

The base:

A3-A4: Ok, it moves a bit much
A3-E4: Ok
E4-A4: Ok
A3-D4: Ok, slow
D4-A4: Ok, moves a bit much, is A4 inverted?

Thirds:

A3-C#4: Fast
A#3-D4: Slow, check A#3-D#4… Ok, check A#3-F4… too narrow (about 3 bps), perhaps raise D#4 and F4 (and D4? and A4?)
B3-D#4: slow (about 6 bps), check B3-E4… Ok, confirm D#4 up
C4-E4: Ok...
C#4-F4: Slow (compare with C4-E4), confirm F4 up
D4-F#4: Ok, pretty tense, confirm D4 up
D#4-G4: Slow, sweet (compare with D4-F#4), check C4-G4… too narrow (about 3 bps?), raise G4
E4-G#4: Ok
F4-A4: Ok, sweeter than previous

Get ready, next time you may try this kind of self-correction.

Have a nice day,

Alfredo
.

Hi Weiyan (good morning!),

I can now compensate for the relative little time I had this morning. I was saying "...we can compare also the two latest samples"...; in fact, if we listen to the second last "Thirds" sample,

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-11-sep-2012

and the last one,

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-12-sep-2012

it should be evident how A3-C#4 and A#3-D4 have swapped their beat-rates.

Perhaps less evident is the (small) difference (between those two samples), when it comes to C4-E4. If you like, you can exercise your ears ((intonation/flavor) and (beat/speed)) by re-listening and comparing both a few times. At some stage we'll have to be able to manage that.

One more thing... once you refine your middle-octave, expand every time with octaves and check every time 10ths, 12ths and 15ths (going treble) and 4ths, 5ths, 6ths and 10ths (towards the bass). So doing you may better balance your ear-training and the overall straining of the pins.

Regards, a.c.
.

It always perceive too slow BR is too fast to hear the BR. Have to learn to trust intonation.

Today's practice. Emphasis on listening intonation on top of beat rates.

Dropped C#4 a little after recording. Not suppose to be very precise, its going to develop the responsiveness to intonation and beat rate change.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-15-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-15-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-15-sep-2012

Hi Weiyan,

This time, let's listen to 4ths and 5ths in the (flow-chart) sequence order, we will try to spot over-beating intervals and relate them to the thirds progression.

The base:

A3-A4: Ok
A3-E4: Ok, is it inverted? Always get sure...
E4-A4: Too close to just, is E4 inverted?
A3-D4: Ok, it moves a bit much...
D4-A4: Ok, always make sure A4 and D4 are not inverted

A3-E4: Ok...
E4-B3: Too just (always compare with A3-D4...)
B3-F#4: Ok, right now check your 1st third D4-F#4... it is very tense due to B3 (too high in pitch)
F#4-C#4: Too just (always compare with A3-D4 and E4-A4 (*)), check your 2nd third A3-C#4... it is very tense due to C#4 (too high)
C#4-G#4: Too much beating, check your third E4-G#4... it is sour, make sure C#4-G#4 is not inverted
G#4-D#4: Too much beating (compare E4-A4), check your third B3-D#4 and compare it to A3-C#4... what do you hear? Their progression is inverted, in fact A3-C#4 is much faster.

Here you could go back and check/see what is wrong... In fact, you want B3-D#4 faster than A3-C#4.

D#4-A#3: Too much beating, check your third A#3-D4 and compare with adjacent A3-C#4 and B3-D#4... A#3-D4 is the slowest (no good)
A#3-F4: As above, check your third C#4-F4... very sweet (about 5 bps)
From D4 tune G4: Too much beating (compare adjacent fourths)
G4-C4: Too much beating, is this inverted?

"Join" C4 with F4: Too wide (about 7 bps)

(*): A3-D4, C#4-F#4 and E4-A4 must be in progression

It happened that the initial fourths B3-E4 and C#4-F#4 (too just) have pushed C#4 very high; the next D#4-G#4 and A#3-D#4 (too wide) have somehow balanced that.

..."Dropped C#4 a little after recording. Not suppose to be very precise, its going to develop the responsiveness to intonation and beat rate change."...

Weiyan, you are doing well already. Considering intonation, you could let me know...

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-sep-2012

...Which thirds sound strange/wrong for you?

Regards, a.c.
.

Thank you.

I think missed the relationship between thirds BR and fourths BR.

I have difficult to here the intonation of fifths. Sometimes I need ETD to confirm if a fifth interval in right side, even I count the beat rate correct.

Following is sequence I remembered.
A4->A3
A3->E4
A3->D4
E4->B3
B3->F#4
F#4->C#4
C#4->G#4
G#4->D#4
D#4->A#3
A#3->F4
F4->C4
D4->G4



A3-C#4 : OK
A#3-D4 : slow
B3-D#4 : ok
C4-E4 : too tense
C#4-F4 : slow
D4-F#4 : too tense
D#4-F#4 : Too tense
E4-G#4 : sweet. BR not determined
F4-A4 : sweet. BR not determined.

Hi Weiyan,

You wrote:

..."I think missed the relationship between thirds BR and fourths BR."...

Never mind, now consider that all intervals are related to each other, in time you'll be able to mentally draw a "beat-map" and administrate those relationships in the strictest way.

..."I have difficult to here the intonation of fifths."...

Don't worry, you are not alone... bi-chords (only two notes played together/simultaneously) have a fairly large leeway, meaning that our ear may accept, say, F3-A3 at a beat-rate from (anything close to) zero to perhaps 10 bps. It is only when we (and orchestras and chorus) play complex chords that intervals need to be tempered into a (complex) whole.

..."Sometimes I need ETD to confirm if a fifth interval in right side, even I count the beat rate correct."...

I too need to confirm that, and I do that with my tuning hammer: I move it either drop-wise (anti-clock) or raise-wise (clock-wise) and see if the beat gets faster or slower. For example, if a fifth is on the narrow side, ACW will produce some (more) beating, CW will make it still.

..."Following is sequence I remembered.

A4->A3
A3->E4
A3->D4
E4->B3
B3->F#4
F#4->C#4
C#4->G#4
G#4->D#4
D#4->A#3
A#3->F4
F4->C4
D4->G4

- . - . - . -

Ok, perhaps you can look at it this way:

A4 -> A3 // A3-> E4 -> A4 // -> A3 -> D4 -> A4

The above five intervals represent the basic relation (and reference), even if you need to further correct them subsequently (*).

E4->B3, cannot be slower than A3-D4, not faster than E4-A4
B3->F#4, cannot be narrower than A3-E4, not "juster" than D4-A4
F#4->C#4, wider than A3-D4, less wide than E4-A4
C#4->G#4, very very close to D4-A4, a "hair" narrower
G#4->D#4, very very close to E4-A4, a hair slower
D#4->A#3, very very close to A3-D4, a hair wider
A#3->F4, very very close to A3-E4, a hair less-narrow

Now tune G4 from D4, very very close to G#4->D#4, a hair slower;

and tune C4 from G4, in-between B3-F#4 and C#4-G#4. Check C4-F4, possibly in-between B3-E4 and C#4-F#4.

(*): Tuning is dynamic, so keep memory of any (due) approximation, actually go "by" approximations and solve them along the way. As for "thirds relations", refer to our previous post.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-15-sep-2012

You wrote:

A3-C#4 : OK
A#3-D4 : slow
B3-D#4 : ok
C4-E4 : too tense
C#4-F4 : slow
D4-F#4 : too tense
D#4-F#4 : Too tense
E4-G#4 : sweet. BR not determined
F4-A4 : sweet. BR not determined.

- . - . - . -

This is what I hear:

A3-C#4: Fast, beats are in a flow
A#3-D4: Slow, about 6 bps
B3-D#4: As above
C4-E4: Too tense
C#4-F4: Slow, about 4 bps
D4-F#4: Too tense
D#4-F#4: Tense and close to correct
E4-G#4: Tense, close to correct
F4-A4: Sweet.

Good for you, your estimations were mostly correct.

Regards, a.c.

Hi Alfredo,

Thank you.

Following the tuning sequence to check thirds beat rates seems easier to correct tuning. Eg., if A3-C#4 not in question, then check C#4-G#4.

When hear a fifth have correct wave form, then I stretch the pin clockwise little, without turning the pin to confirm the direction. Fouths seems have larger movement, is easier to confirm directon.

I also compare triads from A3 up to D4 chromatically. Mistakes are reflected in inconsistent. color.

Took more than half hour to tune A3-A4. A lot faster than 3 hours, but still too slow in production.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/chas-18-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-18-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-18-sep-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-18-sep-2012

Hi Weiyan,

Good job indeed. Although thirds are not all precisely progressive, you have managed to make some adjacent thirds very similar, which is good.

Let's listen together.

The base:

A3-A4: Nice, it may be inverted
A3-E4: It moves too much...
E4-A4: It moves too little. Two main possibilities: first p., E4 is too narrow and A3-A4 is narrow; second p., E4 wide! and A3-A4 correct
A3-D4: Ok, it moves a lot (about 2 bps, make it about 1 bps)...
D4-A4: It moves too much (almost 3 bps), it should sound almost still. Perhaps (first p.) E4 is too narrow and A3-A4 is narrow

Following the (Flow-chart) sequence order:

A3-E4: It moves too much...
E4-B3: Too just (always compare with A3-D4)
B3-F#4: It beats too much (about 2 bps, it should beat less than A3-E4, more than D4-A4), right now check your 1st third D4-F#4… it is nice/sweet, it must be nice/tense... a "hair" difference that you will mature in time. Here also check your first 6th A3-F#4, you want to develop the taste.

F#4-C#4: Too just (compare with A3-D4 and E4-A4), check your 2nd third A3-C#4 and compare with D4-F#4… D4-F#4 is sweeter, not in progression, so I would quickly go back and improve previous intervals.

C#4-G#4: Nice, still, check again adjacent D4-A4... very different, I would go back and improve the base;

G#4-D#4: Too much beating, check your third B3-D#4 and compare it to A3-C#4... what do you hear? B3-D#4 is sweeter, their progression is inverted;

D#4-A#3: Quite still, check adjacent A3-D4... very different, check your third A#3-D4 and compare with adjacent A3-C#4 and B3-D#4...

A#3-F4: Nice, check your third C#4-F4… Ok/slow (about 7 bps), compare with D4-F#4, this is sweeter/slower;

From D4 tune G4: Ok, compare the other (adjacent) fourths and evaluate their progression;
G4-C4: compare with (and check) the other fifths, C4-F4 (too still) and adjacent fourths, C4-E3 (too tense) and adjacent thirds.

You wrote:

..."When hear a fifth have correct wave form, then I stretch the pin clockwise little, without turning the pin to confirm the direction."...

That's good.

..."Fouths seems have larger movement, is easier to confirm direction."...

Ok, when tuning the base, make sure A3-A4 and A3-D4 are wide, make A3-E4 very slowly (narrow) beating and E4-A4 sensibly faster than A3-D4.

..."I also compare triads from A3 up to D4 chromatically. Mistakes are reflected in inconsistent. color."...

I too like doing that and find it useful.

..."Took more than half hour to tune A3-A4. A lot faster than 3 hours, but still too slow in production."...

That's ok, try not to hesitate... Tune your note, compare quickly with other available intervals, do not aim at "static" perfection, get close from above and ready to improve all (improvable) points you could memorize.

Buona serata, a.c.
.