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I am looking to get a new grand piano and was looking at a 5'4" Boston, but when visiting another dealer I found a 6'5" Hailun for considerably less. The Hailun dealer assures me of their quality (plus a 15 year warranty), but when I mention this to the dealer of the Boston I was looking at I was told they (the Hailuns) were junk and no reputable dealer would carry them and that the piano wouldn't last five years! I really loved the Hailun and it played as good, if not better then the Boston. The Boston dealer was also saying the Hailun had plastic parts in the action, but I can find nothing that would make this true - I think he's sour over a lost deal. Any thoughts about this? Could I go wrong by choosing the Hailun.

Thanks

Dear Piano Tee,

Either this dealer does not know or he is lying. The 6'5" Hailun is a nicely built piano. Very nice quality components and a nice design. Nicely prepped, I think I would choose it over a 5'4" Boston hands down.

Having said that, the Boston is not a bad piano, it is just a pricey piano for what you are getting, IMHO.

You've just encountered your first dose of sales poop. Glad you survived it;-)

There's a "Hailun pianos" thread a few down from yours. Lots of good info there.

The thing that's really agitating the Boston rep - and is a problem for many others - is that pianos from China and Indonesia introduced serious pressure on prices.

BTW Bostons are made in Japan by Kawai.

IMO there's no reason to be concerned about Hailun's quality - especially on a value-per-dollar basis.

Re those plastic action parts, the rep is referring to Kawai's actions! As far as I know, Kawai will not license other manufacturers to use those parts. Others may have more current info. You can read Kawai's touting of their actions by clicking on this link.

Longer pianos should sound richer and that richness should be most apparent in the bass register.

Please take the time to read the "Hailun pianos" thread.

Isn't it a shame that dealers have to sell their piano brands by bashing the other guy's piano and usually this is done with bold face lies as was the case here with the Boston dealers comments about the Hailun. Maybe it is just ignorance.

Everyone -

Thanks for your comments. I feel better. I'm on a tight budget and want to get the best/most I can for my dollar. This is a major purchase for me and I want to make the correct choice and I think the Hailun will soon be finding a place in my home.

Choosing a piano is ultimately an emotional decision and we often react differently on different days. That Hailun was appealing when first audtioned. Even if it disappoints when next you audition it, it deserves a third audition.

Most people on PW recommend using the List Prices in Larry Fine's, The Annual Supplement To The Piano Book as the basis for beginning negotiations. You can get a downloadable PDF copy of the most recent supplement by clicking on this link. The goal is to get 30% off Fine's List Prices. Twenty-five percent is still very good.

Markets vary, dealers' situations vary, and there can be manufacturers' price increases which are not reflected in the list prices. Nevertheless Fine's supplement, which also includes info about industry trends and manufacturers, is the single best source for the next info that you'll want.

I think that you'll be pleased with his list price for that Hailun.

In my own piano shopping experience, the Steinway/Boston/Essex dealer was the ONLY one who tried to sell me a piano based on badmouthing the competition, with similar lines to the ones used on PianoTee. I went to many piano stores, too. It is really sad--I suppose that the Steinway, etc., dealers feel threatened by the competition. The threat must be different from the threat felt by dealers in other brands, however, because the dealers in pianos other than Steinways whom I met did not adopt similar badmouthing sales techniques. (One or two were rude, but they did not try to trash the competition.) I wonder why Steinway/Boston/Essex dealers are so dependent on such unfortunate techniques to sell pianos? It is interesting to note that the badmouthing PianoTee heard, like the sales nonsense recited to me, had nothing to do with the sound of the pianos. Apparently Steinway/Boston/Essex dealers lack confidence in the sound quality of their pianos, relying instead on other factors to sell them. At least this is one conclusion one can draw. . . . And if this sounds like an old refrain on my part, it is indeed--my trip to the Steinway dealership was the most unpleasant experience I have ever had as a customer.

Hailuns will be slanted by many dealers in the future.

For good reason......

Norbert

Slanted?

I think that a small amount of the sales people who sell Steinway only for many years live in an Ivory Tower are very insulated to what is really going on in the piano universe. I am not saying this is true of all, and I don't want mail from the well informed ones saying I am disparaging them. But in the past I have hired sales people who were top Steinway sales people who absolutely crashed when they had to really sell a piano based on knowing nuts and bolts of the piano they were selling and the competitive brands.

Steinways don't need 'selling' but are simply *chosen* - handpicked if you will- by the world's finest pianists.

Their multi volume sales brochures were a waste on money from the very beginning....

Norbert

Can a top Steinway salesperson really make more money by moving on to other pianos?

The Boston is a much higher quality piano, but is very over-priced. The Hailun is just a slightly better than average Chinese piano. I think you would be best if you kept looking. I would suggest one of the Japanese pianos. (ie. Kawai, Yamaha) We sell Kawai so I am obviously biased, but either of the 2 Japanese pianos would be a better purchase for the price range you are looking in.

Yes

Bear

Making me curious - you must be ahead of me this time.

Have only seen the 6'5 Hailun once as a Wendl & Lung and it created quite a buzz on this year's Frankfurt Messe. Amazing piano - many people said that...

Worldpiano, since you seem to know even more about this particular piano, what makes the Boston 5'4 a better piano than the 6'5 Hailun?

Eager to learn - I mean it......

Norbert

Pianotee: I have nothing against the Hailun, but this comparison with a 5' 4" Boston is not fair because the Hailun is almost a foot longer. If you really want to see how the Hailun stacks up against the Boston, you should play a Hailun of equal or similar size.

I can't say I've played a Hailun piano, but I have played quite a few Boston pianos and in my opinion they have a very nice tone and touch. As for the Steinway employees, having bought my piano from them, not once did anyone degrade any other piano make or lie about where the Boston or Essex pianos are made. This is very opposite from my experience there. My last advice is to pick the piano that speaks to you more, if it should be the Boston or the Hailun. I wouldn't pick the other piano just to spite the opposite sales people.

Good luck getting a new piano!

If the buyer has a budget constraint but not room size constraint, then comparing pianos of the same price (as opposed to pianos of the same size) makes perfect sense.

Personally, I think comparing pianos dollar-for-dollar is a lot more practical than comparing pianos inch-for-inch most of the time.

I agree that comparing pianos dollar-for-dollar is practical. However, the idea that it is more practical than comparing pianos inch-for-inch is not automatic for me because that depends on what kind of a pianist one is and what one needs. I remember a while back choosing a 5' 4" Estonia over the 6' 3". I found the smaller Estonia to have a much better sound quality and touch(better scale design?). Things just worked together better with that smaller piano than it's larger brother. Of course, if there are budget constraints, I can understand and appreciate comparing pianos of the same price. It's just natural to do that.

To Pianotee: Even if the Hailun is better sounding than the Boston, I will still have trepidation buying it because it hasn't proven itself long enough. The Boston has. But then again, if you love the Hailun, get it! Why would you get something you don't love? That just doesn't make sense. Just be sure you get a good warranty and buy the Hailun from a reputable dealer.

Oh, and try to remember Larry Fine's 'very generalized' comment(absolutely debatable) on pianos and their warranties:

the longer the warranty, the worse the piano.

"Oh, and try to remember Larry Fine's 'very generalized' comment"

He says himself that this is just a vague affirmation, in my eyes he wants more to point out that a very high quality producer might not feel the necessity of a long warranty period, without Fine's feeling obliged to down rate him for that.

Yup, that's what it is, a vague affirmation, but borne out of Larry Fine's years of experience and contact with many, many technicians.

mozartian18 said:


mozartian,

You might want to search comments from musicians and college profs. here about how the Boston holds up in a challenging environment. I am not so sure many with experience would say they have proved themselves, at least in a positive way.

Mozartian,

You make it sound like you have to be careful who you buy a Hailun from in Toronto. Are you implying that dealers of this particular brand are apt to be disreputable? Or maybe you have streetcorner hustlers hawking Hailuns in Toronto.

Regarding the warranty, how do you make sure you get a good one in this case? Should you negotiate the length of the warranty term down instead of the price....maybe tell the dealer you only want 5 years ?

Just a personal note: Larry Fine has quite the love affair with Steinway who incidently has the poorest warranty offered in our industry (5 years) while several years ago Mr. Fine had a legal battle with Baldwin who incidently had the best warranty at the time on their artist grands and higher Hamilton uprights(25 years).

I wish the people touting Larry Fine could at least be objective. The piano book is Mearly ONE MAN'S OPINIONS! Any reputable piano technician can give you quality advice without having a product "for sale".

Incidently, the now defunct Baldwin company always did make a good artist grand. Obviously, Larry missed on that one. But, I guess if you write a book, you can be an expert.

Now defunct?

Did I miss something?

Corrected. Although I am not sure Larry Fine would categorize himself as an "expert" on anything other than his own opinions.

If the book were nonsense, we'd have known that a long time ago. I think this is a lot like Robert Parker's writings on wine... if the reviews did not correspond to people's experiences, people wouldn't continue to read. As it is, idiots like myself find the information useful, that is testimony in and of itself.

You guys! I didn't say that the Boston has a good track record. I only said it has proven itself - it has history, bad or otherwise. Whereas the Hailun is pretty new to the market and does not have a proven track record yet. It's not an attack on the Hailun.

turandot,
I am uncomfortable buying a piano, or anything for that matter(whether it's a washing machine, or an LCD TV,etc), that doesn't have a history. As a consumer, I need to know how the merchandise I'm buying will perform with use over time. As a consumer, don't you feel the same way?

Oh, and I'm not implying that Hailun dealers are somehow disreputable! Gosh, that didn't even cross my mind when I wrote my take on the Hailun/Boston thing! That's the problem with the written word - it can be easily misunderstood. And yes, if Pianotee really loves the Hailun, he/she should make sure that the 15 year warranty is explicit in its coverage for parts and labour.

Oh, and I love the image of streetcorner hustlers hawking Hailuns in Toronto! That`s hilarious!


Pianopro,
I understand your dissatisfaction over Larry Fine's book because it's just a one person's opinion. But please understand that for us who are not piano rebuilders or sellers, who are just a part of the regular buying public, we only have Larry Fine's book to refer to, outside of getting assistance from our piano tuners/techs, our own searches on the internet, such as the Bluebook of Pianos, and this forum. Fine's book has to be taken with a grain of salt, of course, just like with anything else subjective, but it helps a lot in demystifying the confusing process of knowing what's out there and understanding how to buy one. It is an important reference, whether one agrees with Larry Fine or not. And from my experience here, the book is commonly suggested to new buyers by many people in this forum. That alone says something important about the book and Larry Fine's opinions.

This was about 2 specific pianos.

So far nobody has been given a comparative assessment of these 2 particular grands.

I would have appreciated one myself.

Norbert

Hailun or Boston? This is like comparing KIA to Toyota. Let me appeal to common sense. A 6'5" Hailun for less than a 5'4" Boston. Does that ONLY tell you that pianos can be built for less in China?

I agree with the statements made regarding Boston/Kawai being a well documented track record. The Hailun is PROBABLY going to prove to be a decent piano for the hobbiest in the home. In my opinion, it will have to go through some "proving" before you see them on concert stages and with that, I would suggest it has no place in the church/school market. After all, has anyone seen a 25 year old Hailun?

Time will tell on the Hailun. I saw them at the NAMM show in January and was impressed with the sound and the way they play. I have no idea how much service went into the floor models to get them to play as well as they did. When I asked that question of their sales rep, he responded as every other company does. "These were just set up and tuned." Since they are so new on the scene, who can speak to longevity, tuning stability, and structural integrity?

For a more fair comparison, compare Boston, Kawai, and Yamaha. They will be similar in price and quality, and all have YEARS of history to draw information from. Compare Hailun with Sohmer, Kohler and Campbell, Pearl River, Hamilton (from China), George C. Steck, Story and Clark, and for fun the Cable Nelson pianos from Yamaha built in China.

These cheaper pianos will provide bigger pianos at modest prices. you'll have longer overall string lengths and square inches in soundboard area. In the Sohmer, you can even get walnut hammers! However, the chinese pianos are all fairly new to our industry. Experimental if you will. We don't know what they will be in 20 years, and frankly with some of these, they may prove to be disposable. I am confident that will be the case for some.

These are my opinions only. I wish you the best of luck!

Peter Valetsky from Wendl&Lung can.

He has not only helped design Hailun pianos but sold thousands of them.

Several universities in Austria [Graz] and other institutions are using them.

After having spoken to a number of people there, we decided to become dealers ourselves.

Completely confident - for those who are not, they are very welcome to shop something else.

It's a free world....

Norbert

After all, has anyone seen a 25 year old Boston (designed by Steinway, manufactured by Kawai)?

schwammerl.

Norbert:
I'm happy for you that you feel good about what you sell, which is essential in promoting a product. And it's good that the Hailun has some track record already in Austria. However, here in the US and Canada, that still has to happen. As Pianopro suggested, time will tell if Hailun succeeds. Judging from the positive playing experience of many people, the Hailun may become one of China's future high-end pianos. You'll never know! It may happen!

from world piano which way do you want this quote interpreted?

1) slightly better than average comparing Chinese pianos only?

2) slightly better than average comparing all pianos

No piano that is 25 yers old, especially without good service, is gonna be a dynamite piano.

If Japanese or even German pianos at that age, were to be ripped out of one's hands, few dealers would bother to offer new ones.

Considering the abundance of used Japanese product on the market and the increasing difficulty to sell them, things appear to be working somewhat differently today.

Norbert

I didn't say a 6'5" Hailun is better than a 5'4" boston. I was stating that the Boston brand is a much better piano than the Hailun is. That you can't argue. I'm not a huge Boston fan, but just in general I'd take a piano made in Japan over a piano made in China any day.

"Larry Fine has quite the love affair with Steinway"

Larry Fine put the Steinway NY in class 1c, surpassed by pianos which cost half the price, to the dismay of the various more or less colorful Steinway clients and sellers who appear here.

If this is love, better be hated.

You certainly can - or at least could.

As everybody knows, Bostons are basically Kawai made pianos which, like most other Japanese makers, will have to increasingly compete against the new climbers in the industry.

Let's see where the road leads in the future.

We might just be in for a surprise...

Norbert

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since they are so new on the scene, who can speak to longevity, tuning stability, and structural integrity?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote From Norbert:

Peter Valetsky from Wendl&Lung can.

Wendl & Lung Since 2003? This is exactly what I am trying to say! I'm going to try and stay objective even if it kills me. We don't know what these pianos will be in 25 years.

Quote from Norbert:
No piano that is 25 yers old, especially without good service, is gonna be a dynamite piano.

Well, I like the qualifier. You can ruine a Bently by never changing the oil as well.

As I stated, I liked what I saw in the Hailun at NAMM in January. I just hate to see people jump on a bandwagon that in the past has been propelled by other products that eventually were proven to be a flash in the pan.

Quote:
He has not only helped design Hailun pianos but sold thousands of them.

So sell through has become the litmus test to quality? Hmmm.

BTW, there are MANY 25 year old pianos out there that are still outstanding.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After all, has anyone seen a 25 year old Hailun?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After all, has anyone seen a 25 year old Boston (designed by Steinway, manufactured by Kawai)?

schwammerl.


Well as a matter of fact, yes.

Today's Boston is essentially the old Kawai scale designs for the KG1, KG2, GS40, and so on that Kawai dealers sold prior to the new RX series pianos being released in about 1991 if memory serves me correctly. In reality, these pianos have been around a long time and is well documented. (BTW, I am not a Kawai dealer). To say they are designed by Steinway is even a stretch. It is true they didn't allow Kawai to put plastick jacks in them! Sorry, I couldn't resist.

You could look at it like this. If the Hailun cost wise is 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of a comparable Japanese piano and it sustains half the life expectancy at MINIMUM it is a better value. A comparable Japanese piano when it's longevity runs dry is not exactly a candidate for restoration so...... to me for the $ the Hailun is the better value. From assessing the sound,touch and the structural integity one can say that it is built pretty well for a production piano,definitely better than Yamaha or Kawai lower end mdls. Nothing is a sure thing, but assessing the build quality at present it is 10 times better than Young Chang and Samicks 25-30 years ago and they are not quite land fill candidates yet.(close)

Quote:If the Hailun cost wise is 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of a comparable Japanese piano and it
sustains half the life expectamcy at minimum that it can be a better value.


Did someone just admit to selling disposable pianos?

pb, +1 re value per dollar and likelihood of Japanese pianos being restored.

Pianos from China and Indonesia are changing the way we have to think about "Piano." One of the sadnesses is that they are ripping the guts out of the used market for American pianos. I think that they are also a big part of why it doesnt make economic sense for you to restore many pianos other than Steinways.

Quote:I think that they are also a big part of why it doesnt make economic sense for you to restore many pianos other than Steinways.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, I guess I can't go quite that far with you. There are many high quality pianos being built today as well as in the last 150 years that are worthy of rebuilding. They are unlikely, however, to appeal to a great cross section of our customers because of the cost versus the price of even the Japanese pianos (ie. Yamaha/Kawai).

Hand built pianos 100 years ago from Mason Hamlin, steinway, Grotrian, Seiler, Schimmel, Baldwin, Bosendorfer, Bechstein, Bluthner...I could keep going. Many of these are worthy of rebuilding. The truth is, you couldn't replace some of these for what a rebuild would cost. And rebuilding isn't cheap. Then again, neither is any of these premium pianos from Germany.

Peter Valetsky is not just another salesman but happens to be one of Austria's foremost piano technicians as well as a very experienced piano designer.

When this guy *sells*, his name goes with it.

P.S. Ever met him?

Norbert

Peter Valetsky is one of Austria's foremost piano technicians as well as piano designers.

When this guy *sells*, his name goes with it.

--------------------


Norbert, please don't miss the spirit of my message. I mean no disrespect to you or Mr. Valetsky. I would just remind that Joseph Pramberger actually DID put his name on a piano. A good piano. Not a world class piano. Obviously his name was for sale at the right price to be put on retainer with Young Chang.

So, what is the Hailun? A good piano? A world class piano? A Disposable piano? TIME WILL TELL.

I second this memo. My recent trip to the Steinway-Hall dealership was a truely unpleasant experience. All I got was how much superior Essex was to all other 5'8" grands because it was "designed by Steinway." I left and didn't even get a chance to play the instrument!

Can some out there tell me the MSRP of a Hailun model 178? Then, can someone out there tell me a reasonable "street price" to offer a retailer? There's little transparency in piano prices. If you are going to haggle it's nice to have a benchmark starting point. Can someone suggest a "fair" price in the US market?

Hi Boregard - Welcome to piano world!

Do you realize this thread is five years old? Much has changed with the Asian builders in that time period.

The current MSRP of the HG-178 is $23,349 and the "street price" would be $17,333 or lower. Much depends on where you are located and your local market.

The prices I quoted are from the Spring 2013 edition of "A&D Piano Buyer" by Larry Fine. It is an excellent resource on all facets of piano shopping and the free online edition is linked from this page.

Have fun in your search.

I was going to suggest the PianoBuyer online here at PW http://www.pianobuyer.com/

This is an older thread... hey, what ever happened to "Pianobroker" (Tony Hamm?)? I always enjoyed his posts and he seemed like a very knowledgeable fellow.

Rick

I agree with most of the rest of your post, but the above line should say SMP instead of List Price. It's very important not to use the List Price.

In my experience I have occasionally heard(at some of the most prestigious stores in NYC)even pianos like Mason Hamlin and Estonia denigrated by dealers who sell pianos competing with those two makes.

PLU - that quote is over five years old.

In the UK most people would agree that the Boston is a higher quality piano in general, but it is more expensive.

Obviously you get a longer piano for your money with the Hailun. The Hailun is clearly well designed and so will sound good at least when new.

You have to decide based on whether you like the sound, how much you have to pay and what kind of use it will get. I would think that the Boston will last longer under strain than the Hailun, and they have been used in many music colleges for many years. That said, in the 1990s I had to practise on some pretty terrible Bostons that were at that time only 6 or so years old. Things have changed for the Boston since those days and it is a better piano.

Things are also changing for Hailun and the Chinese market for the better, so give it some thought. If you're not practising for hours and hours every day, perhaps the Hailun would be ideal. You could widen the net to look at other brands. Boston are comparable in price and quality to Yamaha and Kawai for instance, and then if you want to look at the lower priced pianos there are lots to choose from including Brodmann and Samick.

I've always found Steinways in the UK to be a pleasant company. Perhaps things are different with them in the USA!

Thanks, Marty.

BOREGARD

First, thank for recommending Piano Buyer.

The comment that "The goal is to get 30% off Fine's List Prices. Twenty-five percent is still very good." is not at all the intention of our pricing model. The reason we suggest a range of 10%-30% off SMP is due to the fluctuating costs of doing business in the wide variety of markets.

While getting 30% (or maybe even a tad more) off in some markets still leaves a dealer with a survivable margin, it would not be profitable in others.

Bravo, innominato!

Whoa Steve,

That quote from FogVilleLad is Five Years Old! The Supplements back then didn't have the "SMP." All that was listed was the MSPR and the buyer used that as the starting point to figure approximate "street price."

Yes, I've watched them do that too, and more than once.

I also heard a salesman decades ago tell me about the amazing quality and crystalline sound of the Steinway I was testing out. When I tried out the Schimmel next to it, I heard all about the "amazing quality and crystalline sound" all over again. And then he felt morally obligated to tell me about the "amazing quality and crystalline sound" yet again when I moved over to a Boesendorfer 220. I thought I was being stalked.

Oy.

I swear that salespeople in this industry generally don't know 1- when they have it good, or 2- how to even talk to a customer.

You can say that again! Young Changs from the 80s were TERRIBLE pianos! They sounded bad, played worse, and fell apart if you pretty much looked at them. I'm sorry they all haven't been chopped up for firewood yet.

It can only go up from there!

Funny to hear that. In our case it's always customers telling us about the sound of our pianos.

Not the other way around.

Norbert

I didn't notice the date of the post.

Thanks for the correction.

Fine used the exact equivalent of SMP in the older Supplements to the Piano Book but just hadn't used/introduced the term SMP yet.

The whole idea of the Fine prices for at least the last 15 years (probably from the very beginning but the earliest supplement I have is 1998) was to use one formula to calculate those figures from the wholesale cost so customers could really compare prices in a meaningful way.

In the 2008-2009 Supplement, for example, this is all explained on page 118. Even though they are called "list" prices on the pages where the figures are given, Fine is very careful to explain these are not the MSRP prices.

Which means absolutely nothing since there was no "SMP" at the time. What I pointed out is that a statement made five years ago did not, and could not, use the same discount percentages as indicated in the newer "Piano Buyer" as opposed to "Supplements" to the "Piano Book."

Read Steve Cohen's reply.

I keep pointing out that this thread is FIVE YEARS OLD. The current Hailuns are a much improved product and their prices are higher. It is silly to compare old to new and long ago pricing in 2013, no matter how you compute a reasonable cost.

But there was an "SMP" for the last 15 years. It just had a different name. The idea behind the figures in the older supplements are exactly the same as SMP. The numbers in the older supplements are not the MSRP as you said. Fine says this in each edition of the supplement as far back as at least 1998. If you have any of the supplements you can read this in each one.

There was no "SMP." The only listing is "List Price*"

"*For explanation of terms and prices, please see pages 117-121."

"2008-2009 Annual Supplement to The Piano Book"


Get over it!

Seems like you never read the explanation on page 118 you just referenced .

Fine says:

"The term "list price" as used in this Supplement is a standard or normalized price computed from the published wholesale price according to a formula commonly used in the industry. Some manufacturers use a different formula for their own MSRP, usually that raises that price by ten to fifty percent so that their dealers can advertise a largest discount without losing profit....To provide a level playing field for comparing prices, most prices in this book are computed according to a uniform standard formula, even though it may differ from the manufacturer's own suggested retail prices."(Fine's own italics)

In the next paragraph, Fine gives a detailed example with specific numbers to show why using the MSRP is not a good way to compare prices. If the "list prices" he gives were actually the MSRP's as you seem to think, his entire line of discussion would be illogical.

All the above is exactly the same idea as the later term SMP. Fine's wording in the explanation about SMP and MSRP in the more recent Piano Buyer books is virtually the same as what I quoted from the 2008 Supplement.

In the earlier Supplements(1998-1999, for example)Fine uses the term "price*" and gives virtually the same explanation as in the 2008-2009 Supplement. His idea, approach, and thinking has been consistent from the beginning.

For Fine, "price"= "list price" = "SMP" Only the names changed.

Norbert,

I absolutely adore you! And yes, piano salespeople say "n'importe quoi" (disent-ils les francais) all the time. Most of them do. Yes, my perspective is particularly bilious and jaundiced. If it's happened, I've probably seen it at least twice.

That conversation took place with a manager at the Steinway franchise dealer in Orange County CA at the time, if you can believe it.

Do you regularly beat your salespeople and force-feed them a restricted diet to get them to listen to you clients?

Just wondering...

Please don't.

Adorations, adulations, congratulations, infactuations - even capitulations - restricted to our pianos only....

Norbert

The key issue in the ongoing SMP pricing is that the 10%-30% range of discounts from the SMP is not intended to lead shoppers to believe that if they were only able to get, for example, a 15% discount, that would be overpriced, if it is similar to discounts from other similar dealers in the same market.

High volume dealers in major metropolitan markets can often make a living selling at 30% off the SMP, while a dealer in a rural market who sells far fewer pianos might only be able to survive with a 10% discount.

If you are considering a Chinese piano such as Hailun, I would ask for a Rainforest Alliance certification that the wood is not from the black market. There are too many articles in the news about how whistleblowers trying to protect national forests in the tropics are getting murdered, and these articles say that ships buying the wood are going to China.

Also, top makers (I think of Steinway) say that they pay more more for materials than the total cost of the Chinese pianos. The cost of materials figures in their publicly stated cost of goods sold and their gross margin figures. My vague recollection is that these figures are roughly self-consistent with Steinway's statement about their high cost of materials. I expect that commodity products including high quality woods should have global marketplace prices.

So, please verify Rainforest Alliance certification of the wood or reduction of cost by lower quality materials.

With all due respect, that sounds like advice from somebody (a Steinway owner) for whom money is not a big concern. You want people at the bottom end of the market to go looking for certificates of wood origin? That just isn't going to happen. Also, if you are going to question the legitimacy of these pianos, you would have to question people like Rich Gallasini and his Cunningham pianos which are made by Hailun. Perhaps you should ask him if they have knowledge of thus issue, but I don't think this info is so easy to get for a consumer at the bottom end of the market. I think you would be better served to ask dealers/importers about this than the end buyer. You can then disseminate this information on fora like this and let people's consciences be their guide.

This thread should get some sort of award. Maybe in the Bizarre Category?

I would be more concerned about whether the workers in the factory are kind to animals.

Please look into that before making any decision.

Not so fast you guys

I think Phacke has a point, though I would have made the point differently.

This calls up, for me, the Home Cheapo/Walmart syndrome. My take on this syndrome is that the short term consumer gains, which admittedly are hard to resist sometimes, eventually drag all commerce to the same low point in a feverish race to the bottom.

In producing and selling these instruments, which as I said in an earlier post, are, right now, nice sounding instruments, just how is that price point achieved?

Wages which resemble indentured servitude, a culture of 3rd world corruption, environmental regulations which are completely and cynically ignored, as they exist or have existed only to shut up the 1st world, artificially low corporate subsidized wholesale prices, supply chains which are unreliable as to parts point of origin or adherence to specifications, central government business subsidies creating artificial cost structures...etc.

As the Chinese people begin, as they are beginning, to see things more as an educated lot wanting something other than servitude, these prices will have to be history. Add to that the fact that Hailun is in the process of going public and serious questions about where the quality they have achieved as of now, goes from here. Combine short term investor gain, with the Chinese business culture of corruption, and I would be hard pressed to have confidence in the continuation of and commitment to high quality...as is evidenced by the power of the Walmart syndrome.

These artificially low price points then train the 1st world consumer to look at the 1st world technicians who have to maintain these instruments...at 1st world prices...saying "I paid xyz for the whole instrument and you want to charge what just to fix it"???

It is a self-replicating loop. We are well in the loop, all of us, and I'm not at all sure where or if it ends.

Jim Ialeggio

Hello Mr. Ando,

1) I can understand your speculation that as a Steinway owner, money isn't a concern, but referring to my situation, your speculation is wrong. My Steinway is purchased quite used, under a budget, after much searching. I wish you were correct thought!

2) Your alternative ideas for bring this issue to the forefront are good; however, don't underestimate the power of the consumer. Grand piano buyers are usually not dumb guys; they ask questions. Further, the piano makers that buy wood ethically could form a consortium, much like the authentic German piano consortium and co-market their advantage.
http://www.pianos.de/en/association/index.php?id=3
maybe it isn't really a problem, I don't know what Hailuns are made of; however, a third party audit with an international agency could be to their benefit.

Phacke,

Exactly what is a "Steinway YM?"

Hi Marty,

The story according to "The Official Guide to Steinway Pianos" By Kehl and Kirkland, is that is these were M designs sent to the Aeolian Co. for player devices to be installed, but due to the great depression, the player devices were never installed. They were returned to Steinway for selling as regular pianos. The YM looks just like and is the same size as an M (not anything like a duo art). I have been, over a period, trying to figure the differences between the YM and the M of the period. Things I noticed that may be different are as follows:

Una-chorda peddle: In addition to the sideways action as in standard grands that this piano has and makes use of, there is also an unused lateral bar existing in the piano action by which the hammers can be brought closer to the strings. Presumably, a player system would have used that bar to make the piano sound softer.

The diagonal support brackets for the peddle trapwork are brass.

The top of the piano rim body has a nice finishing molding instead of being bare. I think older As and the like had this (you probably know better).

I think you can see where the beams supporting the player system would have been placed under the piano, but there are no extra beams.

There were 201 YMs put out by Steinway; 39 YLs and 1 YA exists in the world somewhere!

The M models before the depth of the great depression that did get the players installed were called XYs. I feel fortunate mine never had the player installed as I read they put a lot of wear and tear on the action if regularly used.

Any other X or Y owners out there ?

Good evening -