Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 12 of 14 < 1 2 ... 10 11 12 13 14 >
Topic Options
#1981207 - 11/01/12 03:14 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Weiyan Online   happy
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 748
Loc: Hong Kong
Tuned the octaves up to G#4-G#5
A4 drop down a little before tuning the rest.

Octaves from F3-F4 to G#4-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-1-nov-2012

Tenths from F3-A4 to E4-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/tenths-1-nov-2012

Fifths from F3-C4 to C#5-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-f3-c-5-1-nov-2012


Edit:
The method for tuning the octaves is tune it as wide as possible and sense the tone like A3-A4. Then record the tests after tuning.

Thank you.


Edited by Weiyan (11/01/12 03:16 AM)
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

Top
(ad PTG 568) Win a Year Journal Subscription
PTG 57th Annual Convention - Atlanta
#1986677 - 11/14/12 02:59 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Weiyan]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Sorry for not review last tuning.

For preparation of higher octave, retune the temperament and add two more test.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-1-nov-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-1-nov-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-1-nov-2012
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-1-nov-2012

A3-C#4, A3-F#4, D4-F#4. Should they progressive in C.HA.S?
A forum friend suggest this test. Not sure if this test valid for C.HA.S.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/3th-6th-test-1-nov-2012

Four sixths within A3-A4. They should be progressive.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sixths-1-nov-2012

Not review above tuning yet. Going to higher octaves and post tenths later.

Thank you.


Hi Weiyan,

Let's see the above recordings:

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-1-nov-2012

Yes, A3-A4 is a bit too wide, but it is better a-bit-too-wide than any narrow octave. Nice A3-E4 (a hair too narrow), E4-A4 is fast but... you would remember that and adjust A4 later. A3-D4, make it a hair wider... D4-A4 might be reversed.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-1-nov-2012

All together you have done well, please listen to the first five thirds and comment.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-1-nov-2012

Ok, in general. I am sure you too can spot fourths that are too close-to-just or too wide. Do you want to try?

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-1-nov-2012

Nice job. You can hear they are quite similar.. (apart from A3-E4 and D4-A4) now it gets challenging, you want to hear that both fourths and fifths are progressive. Fourths progressive-wider, fifths progressive closer to "just". Let these intervals "sound" a little bit longer and do not hesitate, evaluate how the interval's sound evolves and, in case, make your correction. To get it "dirty" or "exact" takes the same time! Stay a hair on the "tense-salty" side and map your small pitch approximations in your mind.

You wrote:..."A3-C#4, A3-F#4, D4-F#4. Should they progressive in C.HA.S?
A forum friend suggest this test. Not sure if this test valid for C.HA.S.
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/3th-6th-test-1-nov-2012 "...

I never compare intervals in that way, I evaluate every single interval's beat-curve and its chromatic progression. Of course, D4-F#4 will be faster than A3-C#4.

http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sixths-1-nov-2012

Well, not bad. Would you like to comment (faster/slower)?

Tomorrow... 10ths and your latest posting.

When will those lovely birds be back?

Have a nice day, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1986994 - 11/15/12 08:52 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Weiyan]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Tuned the octaves up to G#4-G#5
A4 drop down a little before tuning the rest.

Octaves from F3-F4 to G#4-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-1-nov-2012

Tenths from F3-A4 to E4-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/tenths-1-nov-2012

Fifths from F3-C4 to C#5-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-f3-c-5-1-nov-2012

Edit:
The method for tuning the octaves is tune it as wide as possible and sense the tone like A3-A4. Then record the tests after tuning.

Thank you.


Hello,

Let's see:

Octaves from F3-F4 to G#4-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-1-nov-2012

Well done, in general. If I were to refer to my musical ear, I may say that none of the above octaves sounds offensive. In fact, also with octaves, our ear is fairly good-tempered and may not complain for small approximations. But then, when we play complex chords.. approximations can/will add up, so reducing the harmoniousness of the whole. Let's focus on how the beat appears, on "when" beats show up; you may check from F3-F4 to C4-C5 and let me know what you hear.

Tenths from F3-A4 to E4-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/tenths-1-nov-2012

G3-B4 is much faster than previous, G#3-C5 is slower than previous... I am sure you can hear that. Would you like to review the rest?

From C4-E5, where beats get very fast, you may evaluate sweet/calm // sour/tense. Normally, when I get to E5 I stop comparing chromatic 10ths and evaluate the first 12th (A3-E5): considering centre-string, we want the octaves and 10ths "correct" progression lead to/confirm A3-E5 "just" (as a practical/general case), i.e. apparently no-beating. 12ths are not difficult to evaluate and can indicate the stretch-curve we are choosing. You only need to remember that, after left/right string unisons, you may get a variation in pitch. Try to anticipate that variation by choosing the appropriate stretch for all intervals.

Fifths from F3-C4 to C#5-G#5
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-f3-c-5-1-nov-2012

I do not think we need to review that. Now I'd rather say this: when expanding my partition towards the bass, I mainly relate 4ths, 5ths and octaves and check the thirds and 10ths progressions. When expanding towards the trebles, I use octaves (and perhaps fifths) up to C#5; then I relate C#4-C#5 (and previous octaves) to A3-C#5, this works as the first octave-stretch indication; then octaves and 10ths, up to E5; then octaves and 12ths, up to A5, where I can also check the 12th/15th relationship.

Regards, a.c.


Edited by alfredo capurso (11/15/12 08:59 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2006963 - 12/31/12 10:03 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Weiyan Online   happy
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 748
Loc: Hong Kong
Thank you.

I am still improving my tuning.

This is my last tuning for the year 2012:
forget to record the base.

A3-A4 with 3rd/10th, M3/m6 test
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/a3-a4-28-dec-2012

Thirds
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-28-dec-2012

Fourths
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-28-dec-2012

Fifths
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-28-dec-2012

Use check points in between the tuning. This is near one pass tuning.

A4->A3, check M3/M10, M3/m6 make sure its wider octave
A3->E4, Check
A3->D4, E4-A4 faster than A3-D4, D4-A4 calmer than A3-E4
E4->B3, compare with A3-D4, E4-A4
B3->F#4, Evaluate A3-F#4,
F#4->C#4, Evaluate A3-C#4, also compare with A3-F#4
C#4->G4, compare A3-F#4, B3-G#4, should progressive
G#4->D#4, evaluate the thirds
D#4->A#3, evaluate the thirds
A#3->F4, evaluate the thirds available. F4-A4 is fastest, but can still hear the beat rate.
F4->C4,
D4->G4,

Best wishes and have a year with harmony.
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

Top
#2013439 - 01/12/13 01:13 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Weiyan]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi Weiyan,

Thank you for your wishes... indeed, be this 2013 a year with harmony.

I have listened to the last recordings and would like to make sure that you can notice the same, as I do. Please, let me know.

Thirds go Ok/slower/faster/slower etc...;

Fifths: A3-E4 sounds fine, also D4-A4 is Ok; in general, try to keep the others (beat-wise) in between, progressive; C4-G4 and C#4-G#4 are too narrow;

Fourths:
A3-D4 is slow, make it (at least) 1 bps, better a hair wider, you will correct later on;
A#3-D#4 beats too much;
B3-E4 is too still, etc...

Originally Posted By: Weiyan


A3-A4 with 3rd/10th, M3/m6 test
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/a3-a4-28-dec-2012

Thirds
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-28-dec-2012

Fourths
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-28-dec-2012

Fifths
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-28-dec-2012

Use check points in between the tuning. This is near one pass tuning.

A4->A3, check M3/M10, M3/m6 make sure its wider octave
A3->E4, Check
A3->D4, E4-A4 faster than A3-D4, D4-A4 calmer than A3-E4
E4->B3, compare with A3-D4, E4-A4
B3->F#4, Evaluate A3-F#4,
F#4->C#4, Evaluate A3-C#4, also compare with A3-F#4
C#4->G4, compare A3-F#4, B3-G#4, should progressive
G#4->D#4, evaluate the thirds
D#4->A#3, evaluate the thirds
A#3->F4, evaluate the thirds available. F4-A4 is fastest, but can still hear the beat rate.



A3-A4, the M3/m6 test does not help my practice; go for beat spead and hammer control; tune A4 like D4, a hair wider;

B3->F#4, Evaluate A3-F#4, (add: place B3-F#4 in between A3-E4 /!/ D4-A4);
F#4->C#4, Evaluate A3-C#4, also compare with A3-F#4 (place F#4-C#4 in between A3-D4 /!/ E4-A4); do the same with all other ready-available (but temporary) intervals.

The Chinese New Year is February the 10th, I've discovered, more joy to come.

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2023306 - 01/29/13 07:32 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Weiyan Online   happy
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 748
Loc: Hong Kong
Thank you.

Harmony seems too far from here. The Gini coefficient is very high. The house price is sky high for a tuner. 27 tunings for 1ft sq floor area(gross, net useable area should at least discount 30%). For a 600 ft sq 20 years old apartment, 16200 tunings. If 1000 tunings per year, 16.2 years non stop working, no food, no drink, no traffic, no medicine, no inflation, then I can afford a flat.

For the CHAS tuning, I think its time to try different pianos. For on site tuning, the psychological state and the quality of the piano play important role.

Today I tuned a aKwai and have surplus time to take record. Will post on next post.
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

Top
#2023323 - 01/29/13 08:36 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Weiyan Online   happy
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 748
Loc: Hong Kong
today I tune a Kawai K-5. This is second tuning. Half year ago I tuned it with Verituner.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octave-29-jan-2013
The A3-A4 octave, with 3rd/10th, M3/m6 testing.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-29-jan-2013
A3-E4, higher partial seems beats ok, lower partial seems beats very fast. Not sure if its false beat.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-jan-2013
A3-C#5 OK
A#3-D4 OK
B3-D#4 slow, same as previous interval
C4-E4 faster than previous interval, actually its too slow
C#4-F4 fast
D4-F#4 ok
E4-g#4 fast
F4-A4 ok

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-jan-2013
A3-D4 ok
A#3-D#4 little bit slow
B3-E4 beats same as previous, too slow
C4-F4 very fast. Had compromised F4 after recording
C#4-F#4 OK
D4-G4 OK
D#4-G#4 slow
E4-A4 ok

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-jan-2013
A3-E4, refer to base
A#3-F4 OK
B3-F#4 OK
C4-G4 fast
C#4-G#4 initially ok, the tail has wave?????
D4-A4 OK

Thank you for comments
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

Top
#2024546 - 01/31/13 10:07 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Weiyan
today I tune a Kawai K-5. This is second tuning. Half year ago I tuned it with Verituner.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octave-29-jan-2013
The A3-A4 octave, with 3rd/10th, M3/m6 testing.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-29-jan-2013
A3-E4, higher partial seems beats ok, lower partial seems beats very fast. Not sure if its false beat.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-jan-2013
A3-C#5 OK
A#3-D4 OK
B3-D#4 slow, same as previous interval
C4-E4 faster than previous interval, actually its too slow
C#4-F4 fast
D4-F#4 ok
E4-g#4 fast
F4-A4 ok

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-jan-2013
A3-D4 ok
A#3-D#4 little bit slow
B3-E4 beats same as previous, too slow
C4-F4 very fast. Had compromised F4 after recording
C#4-F#4 OK
D4-G4 OK
D#4-G#4 slow
E4-A4 ok

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-jan-2013
A3-E4, refer to base
A#3-F4 OK
B3-F#4 OK
C4-G4 fast
C#4-G#4 initially ok, the tail has wave?????
D4-A4 OK

Thank you for comments


Hi Weiyan,

In general, you have done a very good job.

Before we go on with other details, I need your answer (from my previous post, third line):

Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Hi Weiyan,

Thank you for your wishes... indeed, be this 2013 a year with harmony.

I have listened to the last recordings and would like to make sure that you can notice the same, as I do. Please, let me know.

Thirds go Ok/slower/faster/slower etc...;

Fifths: A3-E4 sounds fine, also D4-A4 is Ok; in general, try to keep the others (beat-wise) in between, progressive; C4-G4 and C#4-G#4 are too narrow;

Fourths:
A3-D4 is slow, make it (at least) 1 bps, better a hair wider, you will correct later on;
A#3-D#4 beats too much;
B3-E4 is too still, etc...




If possible, let me know if you can hear what I hear. Let me know what you do not notice, and if some intervals are easier (for you to evaluate) than others. This will help me decide how and where to direct your attention.

About the Gini coefficient, also in Milan, perhaps like in Paris or London, it is pretty hard... Anyway, perhaps that is only.. outer harmony.

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2029716 - 02/09/13 08:01 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Weiyan Online   happy
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 748
Loc: Hong Kong
Hi, today is last day of the year of dragon. A few hour later will be year of snake.

Regarding post #2013439

Fourths:
A3-D4: slow, near 0.5bps
A#3-D#4: Fast, near 2bps
B3-E4: Slow, 1bps
From B3-E4: The beat rates are progressive. Sicne B3-E4 is too slow, the whole range is slow.

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK
A#3-D4: Slow
B3-D#4: fast
C4-E4: Ok
C#4-F4: Fast
D4-F#4: slow
D#4-G4: br same as previous interval
E4-G#4: Ok
F4-A4: Ok

Fifths:
A3-E4: too calm, should a hair wider
A#3-F4: near perfect fifth
B3-F#4: fast, this should be br for A3-E4
B3-F#4: fast
C4-G4: br same as previous interval, with the feel of progressive
C#4-G#4: OK
D4-A4: ok

Thanks

Best wishes for new year.
Kung Hei Fat Choi
恭 喜 發 財
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

Top
#2030355 - 02/10/13 09:38 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi Weiyan,

I wish you and your family all the best, and... be this '13 "snake's" a very special year for all of us.

I will soon be back to your technical comments.

Regards, a.c.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2032675 - 02/13/13 07:50 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Weiyan Online   happy
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 748
Loc: Hong Kong
Hi Alfred,

Happy New Year and best wishes in this year of Snake.

Regards
Weiyan
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

Top
#2034270 - 02/16/13 01:38 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Weiyan]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Hi Weiyan,

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Hi, today is last day of the year of dragon. A few hour later will be year of snake.

Regarding post #2013439

Fourths:
A3-D4: slow, near 0.5bps
A#3-D#4: Fast, near 2bps
B3-E4: Slow, 1bps
From B3-E4: The beat rates are progressive. Sicne B3-E4 is too slow, the whole range is slow.

Thirds:
A3-C#4: OK
A#3-D4: Slow
B3-D#4: fast
C4-E4: Ok
C#4-F4: Fast
D4-F#4: slow
D#4-G4: br same as previous interval
E4-G#4: Ok
F4-A4: Ok

Fifths:
A3-E4: too calm, should a hair wider
A#3-F4: near perfect fifth
B3-F#4: fast, this should be br for A3-E4
B3-F#4: fast
C4-G4: br same as previous interval, with the feel of progressive
C#4-G#4: OK
D4-A4: ok

Thanks

Best wishes for new year.
Kung Hei Fat Choi
恭 喜 發 財


Fourths (my comment between brackets):
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-28-dec-2012

A3-D4: slow, near 0.5bps (yes)
A#3-D#4: Fast, near 2bps (yes)
B3-E4: Slow, 1bps (please note, this is slower than A3-D4)
From B3-E4: The beat rates are progressive. Sicne B3-E4 is too slow, the whole range is slow. (C#4-F#4 is much faster than C4-F4, E4-A4 is much faster than D#4-G#4)

Thirds (my comment between brackets):
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-28-dec-2012

A3-C#4: OK (yes)
A#3-D4: Slow (yes)
B3-D#4: fast (yes)
C4-E4: Ok (this is sweet/slow - it sounds sweeter than A3-C#4
C#4-F4: Fast (yes, very much)
D4-F#4: slow (yes, sloweer than C#4-F4, but quite Ok)
D#4-G4: br same as previous interval (yes, quite Ok)
E4-G#4: Ok (Ok)
F4-A4: Ok (sweeter than E4-G#4)

Fifths (my comment between brackets):
http://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-28-dec-2012

A3-E4: too calm, should a hair wider (E4 should go "a hair" up, you also improve C4-E4 and E4-A4)
A#3-F4: near perfect fifth (yes, near perfect, this is how 5ths should sound; this one is quite good)
B3-F#4: fast, this should be br for A3-E4 (please, double check, this is quite good, perhaps B3 can go up a bit, as E4)
C4-G4: br same as previous interval, with the feel of progressive (please, double check,
almost 2 bps, C4 can go down a bit?)
C#4-G#4: OK (check, slower than C4-G4 but too narrow - G#4 can go up a bit?)
D4-A4: ok (too much movement, too narrow, this really must be "near perfect")

- . - . - . -

Very good, Weiyan. Now, in general, we will remember that "progressive" must be "smooth", and chromatic intervals "progress" differently. The beat rate of chromatic Thirds, for example, accelerate sensibly between F3-A3 and C4-E4.

And now, if you like, we can also address wider intervals, like 6ths, octaves, 10ths and 12ths. Be confident, your ear can "read" beats very well, and you want to refine your "eye" for drawing a wider beat-map and correct consequently. So doing we will temper the form.

Next:

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
today I tune a Kawai K-5. This is second tuning. Half year ago I tuned it with Verituner.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octave-29-jan-2013
The A3-A4 octave, with 3rd/10th, M3/m6 testing.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-29-jan-2013
A3-E4, higher partial seems beats ok, lower partial seems beats very fast. Not sure if its false beat.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-jan-2013
A3-C#5 OK
A#3-D4 OK
B3-D#4 slow, same as previous interval
C4-E4 faster than previous interval, actually its too slow
C#4-F4 fast
D4-F#4 ok
E4-g#4 fast
F4-A4 ok

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-jan-2013
A3-D4 ok
A#3-D#4 little bit slow
B3-E4 beats same as previous, too slow
C4-F4 very fast. Had compromised F4 after recording
C#4-F#4 OK
D4-G4 OK
D#4-G#4 slow
E4-A4 ok

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-jan-2013
A3-E4, refer to base
A#3-F4 OK
B3-F#4 OK
C4-G4 fast
C#4-G#4 initially ok, the tail has wave?????
D4-A4 OK

Thank you for comments


Thank you. Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2035950 - 02/19/13 04:01 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi Weiyan,

Let's check:

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octave-29-jan-2013
The A3-A4 octave, with 3rd/10th, M3/m6 testing."...

That's fine. As mentioned, I do not use the M3/m6 test.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-29-jan-2013
A3-E4, higher partial seems beats ok, lower partial seems beats very fast. Not sure if its false beat."...

The octave is Ok;
A3-E4: almost 1 bps, can be closer to just; if possible, record longer (for both of us and others), double the time; lower partials are louder and here they are slower than high partials (3 bps, like E4-A4);
A3-D4: too just, no beat
D4-A4: inverted? Double check, always;

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-jan-2013

Weiyan, right now I must leave, but I'll be back soon.

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2036466 - 02/20/13 02:27 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi Weiyan,

Here we go (my comment between brackets):

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-29-jan-2013

A3-C#4 OK (yes)
A#3-D4 OK (slower than A3-C#4, I know you can hear that)
B3-D#4 slow, same as previous interval (yes)
C4-E4 faster than previous interval, actually it's too slow (yes, a bit sweet)
C#4-F4 fast (yes, fast-Ok)
D4-F#4 ok (yes)

Missed: D#4-G4... (Ok, sweeter than D4-F#4)

E4-G#4 fast (Ok)
F4-A4 ok (yes)

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-29-jan-2013

A3-D4 ok (too just)
A#3-D#4 little bit slow (too just, like A3-D4)
B3-E4 beats same as previous, too slow (yes, no beat as above)
C4-F4 very fast. Had compromised F4 after recording (well done)
C#4-F#4 OK (slow, make it a little bit faster than 1 bps)
D4-G4 OK (slow)
D#4-G#4 slow (better than D4-G4)
E4-A4 ok (yes)

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-29-jan-2013

A3-E4, refer to base (commented yesterday)
A#3-F4 OK (yes, F4 down a bit, as you did, all these fifth must "breathe")
B3-F#4 OK (as above, a hair too just)
C4-G4 fast (please, record fifths for longer time, 4 secs each)
C#4-G#4 initially ok, the tail has wave????? (yes, it beats about 2 bps)
D4-A4 OK (see previous post)

- . - . - . -

Few words, in general: be strict with the base, if you tune A3-E4 too narrow and A3-D4 too just... you cannot use two main references; beyond that, you are doing great and you are able to compare beats, even for "insidious" intervals.

On this, I suggest you to expand beyond the first 13 notes span, without expecting some "static perfection". On purpose, evaluate and make use of some approximations (on the "higher" side) - no more than what you can trace - and move up towards the trebles, double checking also the notes you have just tuned. Stay a little bit (a hair) higher, and remember that.. especially between C4 and C6 the pitch will more likely go down/flat.

Once you have tuned a larger span, you will be able to evaluate more easily how beats progress and their coherence, by checking intervals like chromatic 10ths, 12ths, 15ths and 17ths. More intervals make the beat-map more complex, and this is why I suggest you to exercise and refine your "wider" eye, try to visualize the beat-geometry in your mind.

I do not think a set of sounds can be "transferred" on a piano like if it was a decal (decalcomania), simply because the piano's structure and the strings are continuously moving, say "adjusting" in force of new tensions and loadings (and playing), especially during the act of tuning. I think I am dealing more with a dynamic phenomenon, with a growing form, something that is "becoming" under my eyes. I prefer to consider all the "adjustments" (that are going to take place) as part of a game… "who will have the last word" over the form?

Regards, a.c.


Edited by alfredo capurso (02/21/13 07:22 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2038948 - 02/25/13 10:49 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Weiyan Online   happy
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 748
Loc: Hong Kong
Hi Alredo,

Thank you.

Will try to expand the temperament to two octaves on next tuning.

This is today's exercise. The hammer skill improved. The listening and hammer movement dependent. In this tuning also try to align lower partial and higher partials.

Will post analysis tomorrow.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-25-feb-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-25-feb-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-25-feb-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-25-feb-2013

Regards,
Weiyan
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

Top
#2039520 - 02/26/13 10:14 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Weiyan Online   happy
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 748
Loc: Hong Kong
Self critic:
Base
A3-A4 two narrow.
A3-E4: OK
E4-A4: slow
A3-D4: OK
D4-E4: fast

Fourths:
A3-D4: OK
A#3-D#4: OK
B3-E4: Slow
C4-F4: OK (begin to progressive, considered slow)
C#4-F#4: OK
D4-G4: fast
D#4-G#4: fast
Above two intervals: seems ok if listen to the piano. In the audio file they are very fast.
E4-A4: OK(compare to previous, should faster up to 2bps)

fifths
A3-E4: OK
A#3-F4: fast, for CHAS should tune fifths regressive
B3-F#4: OK
C4-G4: OK
C#4-G#4: OK
D3-A4: fast

Overall impression:
This is more likely a stander ET than C.HA.S.

Regards,
Weiyan
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

Top
#2041271 - 03/01/13 10:03 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Weiyan Online   happy
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 748
Loc: Hong Kong
Hi Alfredo,

Re-arrange the tuning sequence. Tune temperament from F3-A4.
Firstly,
A3->E4, A3->D4,
then E4->B3,
Tune the F temperament. Then tune the octave, align fifths to regressive br after A3-E4. I found F temperament is easier to tune. The strings in F temperament is longer so have larger hammer movement.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-1-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-1-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-1-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-1-mar-2013

Fifths from F3-C4 to D4-A4. The br progressive then regressive.
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-f-2-mar-2013

Octaves F3-F4 to A3-A4, octaves are marginal, not solid.
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/octaves-1-mar-2013

Thank you.
Weiyan
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

Top
#2041801 - 03/02/13 10:39 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Weiyan]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Hi Alredo,

Thank you.

Will try to expand the temperament to two octaves on next tuning.

This is today's exercise. The hammer skill improved. The listening and hammer movement dependent. In this tuning also try to align lower partial and higher partials.

Will post analysis tomorrow.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-25-feb-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-25-feb-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-25-feb-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-25-feb-2013

Regards,
Weiyan


Hi Weiyan,

Below your "self critic" and my comments (between brackets):

Self critic:
Base
A3-A4 two narrow. (yes)
A3-E4: OK (yes, try to make it closer to just)
E4-A4: slow (yes)
A3-D4: OK (slow, try to make it wider, 1 bps)
D4-A4: fast (yes)

Fourths:
A3-D4: OK (slow, see base)
A#3-D#4: OK (slow)
B3-E4: Slow (yes)
C4-F4: OK, begin to progressive, considered slow; (OK)
C#4-F#4: OK (slow)
D4-G4: fast (yes)
D#4-G#4: fast (yes)
Above two intervals: seems ok if listen to the piano. In the audio file they are very fast.
E4-A4: OK, compare to previous, should faster up to 2bps; (slow, next time go for 2.5 bps)

fifths
A3-E4: OK (play/record fifths for longer... easier to evaluate, fifths must breathe, no real beating)
A#3-F4: fast, for CHAS should tune fifths regressive (correct)
B3-F#4: OK (too just, no breathing)
C4-G4: OK (fast, beating)
C#4-G#4: OK (as above)
D4-A4: fast (better than C4-G4 and C#4-G#4)

- . - . - . -

I have listened to your unisons and will post more, on hammer/lever and pin control. If possible, you may comment those thirds as well:

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-25-feb-2013

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2042154 - 03/03/13 04:08 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Weiyan Online   happy
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 748
Loc: Hong Kong
Quote:
I have listened to your unisons and will post more, on hammer/lever and pin control. If possible, you may comment those thirds as well:

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-25-feb-2013


A3-C#4: OK
A#3-D4: slow, near perfect
B3-D#4: same as above
C4-E4: fast
C#4-E#4: slow
D4-F#4: slow
D#4-G4: fast.
E4-G#4: slow
F4-A4; slow

There are many slow beating thirds, does it mean that the octave is too narrow?

Regards,
Weiyan
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

Top
#2042179 - 03/03/13 06:12 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7264
Loc: France
Weivan, I am sorry to interfere in your discussion, but let me suggest that you need to master the tuning pin better, (work your unisons more).

I suspect that what you record and what you tuned may differ as you are not setting the pin well enough (so the wire and the pin may move immediately, and you record something different from your initial intention)

Learn first to set the pin really firmly and precisely, even on a not perfect unison aint the problem.

You must be able to bump on the hammer handle, relatively firmly) and have the note spring back exactly where it was (or eventually not move at all).

I see you feel some pin setting , but it is not well related to the wire work.

ALl the best. You seem to progress on intervals anyway...
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

Top
#2042189 - 03/03/13 06:51 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Weiyan Online   happy
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 748
Loc: Hong Kong
Issac,
Thank you.

I agree need to improve hammer skill.
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

Top
#2043170 - 03/05/13 03:05 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Weiyan Online   happy
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 748
Loc: Hong Kong
Today's C.HA.S tuning session.

1. Use new hammer skill. Fast stroke and listen to attack. Push the lever until it has high friction. Then play again to evaluate beat rate with emphasis to attack. If not satisfy re-do the process.

2. Fourths have faster br.

3. Tune A3 from A4, not care the width of the octave. Correct A4 after finishing the intervals.

4. Follow the C.HA.S procedure, A3-A4 temperament. Then tune octaves down to F3. Evaluate beat rates of F temperament and make adjustment.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-5-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-5-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-5-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-5-mar-2013

Thank you.
Weiyan
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

Top
#2043210 - 03/05/13 05:41 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7264
Loc: France
This is getting way better, I also seem to notice the tone is more crisp, due to a better pin setting ... (the tone is way more firmer and cleaner, when compared with older recordings , did you notice ?)


The first octave is so important I sometime have to correct it only after tuning a few notes.

My opinion : you should record the 5th and the 4ths in the same order than they are tuned.

That way it will be easier for you (and for others) to detect where the mistakes come from. Sometime we have one interval or one note that we hear less good than others. it is useful to know which one


Edited by Olek (03/05/13 05:59 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

Top
#2043554 - 03/05/13 08:03 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Olek]
Weiyan Online   happy
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 748
Loc: Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: Olek
This is getting way better, I also seem to notice the tone is more crisp, due to a better pin setting ... (the tone is way more firmer and cleaner, when compared with older recordings , did you notice ?)


The first octave is so important I sometime have to correct it only after tuning a few notes.

My opinion : you should record the 5th and the 4ths in the same order than they are tuned.

That way it will be easier for you (and for others) to detect where the mistakes come from. Sometime we have one interval or one note that we hear less good than others. it is useful to know which one

Compare the base with last tuning, latest one is cleaner. Not sure this is due to firmer pin setting or better interval.
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

Top
#2043625 - 03/05/13 10:18 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Weiyan Online   happy
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 748
Loc: Hong Kong
This is correction to 5-Mar-2013 tuning.

In last tuning, the thirds are fast/slow/fast/slow.....

Regarding br, if play the interval melodically, the br at the attack of second note is fast. Playing two notes simultaneously, its calmer.

The last sound clip is tuning sequence.

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/base-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fourths-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/fifths-6-mar-2013
https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/sequence-6-mar-2013

Some words about hammering. When push the lever to a high friction point, evaluate the br. Then push with added force again, the pin may turn, or have crack sound. But the br change is none to little. The sound quality is cleaner. In some case the br change drastically need to retune.

Thank you
Weiyan
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

Top
#2045062 - 03/08/13 01:03 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Originally Posted By: Weiyan
Quote:
I have listened to your unisons and will post more, on hammer/lever and pin control. If possible, you may comment those thirds as well:

https://soundcloud.com/weiyan-1/thirds-25-feb-2013


A3-C#4: OK
A#3-D4: slow, near perfect
B3-D#4: same as above
C4-E4: fast
C#4-E#4: slow
D4-F#4: slow
D#4-G4: fast.
E4-G#4: slow
F4-A4; slow

There are many slow beating thirds, does it mean that the octave is too narrow?

Regards,
Weiyan


Hi Weiyan,

Following yours, my comment (between brackets):

A3-C#4: OK (fast)
A#3-D4: slow, near perfect (slow, about 5 bps)
B3-D#4: same as above (faster than A#3-D4, about 7 bps)
C4-E4: fast (a hair sweeter/slower than B3-D#4)
C#4-E#4: slow (yes)
D4-F#4: slow (OK!)
D#4-G4: fast (sweet/slow)
E4-G#4: slow (yes)
F4-A4; slow (yes)

- . - . - . -

..."There are many slow beating thirds, does it mean that the octave is too narrow?"...

Yes, in a way. In fact if three thirds, f.e. A3-C#4-F4-A4 were "just", we would get a very narrow octave. In this sense, a narrow octave may induce and push you towards slow thirds; in other words, any wrong octave will either crush or over-stretch other intervals. And this works also the other way around, any wrong interval may cause a wrong octave. You understand that our tuning form is inter-related in absolute terms.

Tomorrow we will check your latest recordings and will deepen on sequence and hammer/pin control.

Isaac, thank you for partecipating.

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2045471 - 03/09/13 11:14 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1059
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi Weiyan,

The following video of yours was posted in the "Unison Tuning" thread. Let's see:

Originally Posted By: Weiyan
McMorro's all tuning is unison is enlightenment. I tried to tune the octave and two 4th 5th intervals. It seems have friction at some point. Not sure is psychological effect.

The octave not confirmed is too wide or too narrow. The intervals not confirm tempered in right direction, non the beat rate.



Regards,
Weiyan


First, you flatten A3... good;
- then you raise A3... pass the spot (0:11)... go sharp... make the pin turn CW at its bottom... good;
- then you flatten A3 towards the spot(*) and pass the spot (0:14)... this move is too fast, perhaps the pin turned again Anti-CW, no good (you already know);

(*)going towards the spot you must play and follow the beat rate, you must adhere to the speed of the beat, never loose contact;

at 0:15 A3 is about 3 bps flat;
at 0:24 you slow the beat down, you realise the pin is not charged and at 0:27 you raise A3 again... good; in between 0:15 and 0:24/0:27 nothing really happens, avoid that playing for nothing, save time;
at 0:30 you get close to the spot (*);
at 0:32 you hear about 1.5 bps (was A3 too flat or too sharp? (*)), at 0:34 the beat slows down and at 0:36 you move on A3-E4...

In general, after sharpening the pitch, while charging the pin (0:29), try to use both fingers and wrist, this increases your sensitivity and control onto the hammer;

while charging the pin, relate the force, the energy, the beat rate and your playing, so that you can feel, hear and control "how" the beat relates to the charge;
the force/energy onto the hammer should be progressive, less energy to take away the CW torque, more energy to establish the Anti-CW charge; remember that also some pin-bending occours, a slower movement will let you feel that better.

A3-E5 (edit: A3-E4)

You play 6 times before you actually start raising the pitch; avoid that, save noise;
at 0:45 you raise the pitch... good... you hear the spot at 0:46 and feel the pin's torsion... very very good!! this is how you evaluate how-much "over-raise";
at 0:46/47 you over-raise E4 and make the pin turn at its bottom... very good;
at 0:49 you start lowering the pitch and charging the pin;
between 0:50 and 0:53 you do not play, this is wrong and this is where you can improve (*): follow the beat rate while it goes down, say from 10 bps down, enjoy how the beat slows down, play in time with the beat, sing the beat in your mind, relate the (progressive) pin's charge, the energy onto the hammer and the beat, get to the spot aware of that... not abruptly.

Before going on, please let me know if the above is clear.

Regards, a.c.


Edited by alfredo capurso (03/09/13 02:30 PM)
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#2045494 - 03/09/13 12:38 PM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7264
Loc: France
Hello all nice description on the moves, Weyan, I am too lazy to do such work , but this is very important, and I don t see how tuning learning could be better controled (without being on site)

It is amazing how we can understand what is going on, just by looking and listening, while not tuning ourselves...

About control, would not it be easier if Weiyan recorded the 5th abd 4 th cycles of the temperament ? I suggest we tend to leave some intervals larger. I know for instance I had problems with g5 for a long time, just an ear sensitivity question probably.

On all 4th and 5th temperaments I find differences depending of the tuner or the sequence, I was not able to investigate a lot but this was evident.

Those are sensitive subjects, when askingvwhat kind of tuning the colleagues realise it sound as obscene , as if I asked the colors of their underwear.

But I believe this come from the difficulty with analysis (envelope, power, projection. You can see the tuner in Pianomania, tweaking unisons and regulation to provide an adequate ambiance, (while it could suffice to propose different instruments, the budget is not the same)

Greetings



Edited by Olek (03/10/13 10:21 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

Top
#2045797 - 03/10/13 05:26 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: Olek]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Olek
...........


Those are sensitive subjects, when askingvwhat kind of tuning the colleagues realise it sound as obscene , as if I asked the colors of their underwear.

But I believe this come from the difficulty with analysis (envelope, power, projection. You can see the tuner in Pianomania, tweaking unisons and regulation to provide an adequate ambiance, (while it could suffice to propose different instruments, the budget is not the same)

Greetings



There is a reason for colleagues not speaking of tuning techniques, styles, etc.

Whenever anybody has mentioned anything remotely about tuning in this forum, take a close look at your reply.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2048090 - 03/14/13 08:48 AM Re: CHAS PREPARATORY TUNING [Re: alfredo capurso]
Weiyan Online   happy
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 748
Loc: Hong Kong
Sorry for didn't notice there was feedback.

Alfredo,

Thank you. The explanation is very clear. Even I didn't realized what I did during the tuning session. Repeat playing without movement is due to not trusting my ear.
_________________________
Fake Book player
Ragtime beginner
http://weiyanwo.wordpress.com

Top
Page 12 of 14 < 1 2 ... 10 11 12 13 14 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
Our latest Issue is available now...
Piano News - Interesting & Fun Piano Related Newsletter! (free)
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
119 registered (AndresD, AndrewJCW, 36251, Allard, 35 invisible), 1364 Guests and 19 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75602 Members
42 Forums
156329 Topics
2295969 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Feurich 190 cm grand from 1920 - Is it any good?
by pinkfloydhomer
08/01/14 08:16 AM
Who's gigging with MP11
by 36251
08/01/14 07:45 AM
piano technician cost list
by ascc
08/01/14 01:36 AM
Roland RD800 initial impressions
by fizikisto
08/01/14 12:28 AM
Connected Slurs
by TX-Bluebonnet
08/01/14 12:17 AM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission