Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum My timing still sucks

I can read the sheet music I know the notes are held for different amounts of time.

But I can't help but go very quickly to the next note. Cutting off my minims, not holding dotted notes long enough my teacher says. Sometimes it is spot on, but has a habit of going wayward.

So as a deliberate practice goal, I've been counting out loud, I feel rather silly doing this but its sort of working.

Does anybody else have any other suggestions other than Metronome playing? Since I'm not going to have a lesson for another 2 weeks. I feel its a tad long to wait and maybe even be doing the wrong thing.


Thanks

My teacher gave me this exercise when I was working on getting the timing of dotted eighths with sixteenths in the RH part:

Play the RH notes with both hands. That is, bpth hands are playing the melody, an octave apart. Play the RH with the indicated note durations, but play the LH with continual sixteenth notes throughout (I think I added counting 1-e-and-uh to this.). This really helped me to feel the implicit subdivisions and the proper duration.

If your piece doesn't have sixteenth notes, you could try this with eighth notes.

If the trouble is proper duration in the LH part, perhaps reverse this: play the LH notes in each hand, with the written durations in the LH and pulsing eighth or sixteenth notes in the RH.

I'm curious.. why suggestions "other than a metronome"? A metronome would help greatly with this particular issue..

I read somewhere that a metronome only keeps you steady. What I'm trying to do currently with my metronome is set it to 60 bpm and do up to 3 octaves in quarter, eighths, and sixteenths. Which is turning out a lot harder to actually do perfectly than all those videos on youtube make it look. I'm trying not to look at the metronome but rather concentrate on the sound of the clicks against my scales.

Furthermore, I hate counting. And I am absolutely horrible at it. I can NOT count and play at the same time no matter how hard I try. I can hit the notes fast enough if needed, but I know that although I can make a piece sound correct, or to a point where someone may not notice any obvious problems with it rhythmically. I can't help but feel as if, if I could only count properly the piece could sound SO MUCH BETTER and much more accomplished.

But I truly hate counting I just CAN NOT do it. I've tried to count and play and I find that the ENTIRE piece falls apart. like the notes don't make any sense anymore. I find myself forgetting notes, mixing up notes, messing up hand positions, or at times completely loosing track and not being able to make sense of what I could play perfectly fine if I just didn't have to try to play it while counting.

I'm at a loss and I don't know what to do about this counting business what so ever. I'm trying hard with that metronome in hopes that this will prove to internalize and integrate the process of counting and timing beyond this 1 and ah, or 2 e and ah, stuff that I just can not get a grasp on. It's like those syllables just DESTROY my playing to a point where it doesn't even sound right to me because I'm hearing this 'e and ah' in my head and its throwing the whole thing completely off.

Sorry for the long reply. But I just went through this with a piece I'm learning about half an hour ago. So the frustration is still at the forefront of my brain any helpful hints?

The path you are taking may be too structured for you. Try familiarizing yourself with the tune until you know it very well. Then, just play along to the music using your own timing. Whatever feels right and natural.

The piece will still be the same and very recognizable to you and others but it will also be uniquely your own.

You can't count and play at the same time! (Or at least, I can't.) I couldn't possibly imagine trying to remember all of that while also focusing on motion and sound.

The metronome will help you find a beat and break it down internally.

However, my concern, now that you have elaborated, is that this problem does not exist in your head (or your counting), but in your technique. If it's your technique, the metronome will not help.

Any chance you can post a video of you playing something well, and then something else that is giving you trouble? We can check it pretty quickly..

Count OUT LOUD even if you think you sound like an idiot. If you count in your head you will cheat.

I have a similar problem. This book helped a lot:

http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Timing-...1&keywords=basic+timing+for+pianists

I’ve been playing for a little over a year, and I can’t count aloud, either – I just can’t keep it even. At first, I had major problems with metronomes – I found the one built into my digital to be highly distracting. I had an old electric one that just had a dial and one sound at one volume – just could not get used to it. It was totally frustrating.

So I did a lot of research into the new world of metronomes – and finally settled on the Boss DB-90. I had to save my pennies up for it but now that I have it I consider it one of the best investments I’ve ever made.

I like it for the flexibility it offers –

First, it has 4 different sounds – wind-up metronome, electronic metronome, electronic click, and a human voice. There is a master volume slider to control this sound.

Second, the first beat of the measure can be a different sound, which is the way many of them work – and which I find distracting – so with a slider I can take this out and just have my chosen electronic sound for every beat, which I much prefer.

Third, I like that I can add in the sub-beats if I want to – and control the volume for each – so if I’m playing a piece with quarter notes and eighth notes (my limit at the moment) and I set 4/4 time with quarter note as one beat, I can increase the volume of the eighth note beats if I’m having trouble getting them smooth or I want to check my internal time. One can also add sixteenths notes, and triplets – which I’m sure I’ll find handy in the future.

You can set the current tempo you are comfortable with by tapping a button – then you can gradually increase it (my teacher suggests a value of 5 each time) until you can play up to speed.

There are also lights – so once I learn my scale pattern or Hanon pattern and have taken the music away I can watch the lights – with or without any sound – and keep my eyes off the keyboard

Those were the most important things to me – I figured later I would have some fun with rhythm patterns as something to play along with to help improve my inner clock, so to speak. And there’s some kind of a rhythm coach mode that I have not a chance to check out yet.

So now I happily use my metronome, I actually can use it – and I have come to appreciate it as a tool to really help me get things right.

I also find that sometimes just tapping the rhythm with right and left hand as the metronome runs helps me to sort out a more complex pattern – then I try playing it.

I found a small “BookChair” was just perfect to hold the DB-90 and it sits ready to be used on my digital. I also got the power adapter – at that price they should include it, but that would be in an ideal world.

I'll make a video of a piece I can play well. And I'll try to make a separate recording of the performance in case my web camera (which is pretty much useless) gives horrible quality (which it most likely will)

In response to the part of technique. I mean what more can I do to improve technique? I've learned my jazz scales, haven't put them together yet with both hands (still learning the left) but I can do each one two octaves in the right. I've done all my scales major, harmonic, melodic. I do them constantly. (I can go up to 4 octaves comfortably)

I'm working on contrary motion. Then I plan to move on to parallel. During that time I'm hoping to brush up on Hannon, keep loading on new pieces, and I'm still cleaning up my arpeggios.

I figure once I have COMPLETE control of scales. Not just some fly by night type of 'know them but don't know them' kind of knowledge. Once I am able to control the entirely and completely. Only then could I hope to see the drastic control and fluidity that I'm hoping to achieve.

(Just to add I've only played for a year and a half and have been taking lessons since day one)

Alright so I just made a video.

To be totally honest I get really nervous as soon as I turn on a recording device and play It's like I can play so much better without it but as soon as I know I'm recording I get little butterflies in my stomach and mess up sometimes

I think this run was ok. I hope At least I'm pleased with it I'd say

It's a cover of Elton John - Funeral For A Friend

If anyone needs the sheets I've uploaded them here
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?g4qa37y9mtqdi99

As for the video .... here's the link .... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8py3vEN6sQY

I played it a second time 20 minutes later and recorded that as well. If it helps anyone here is the link to the second recording. I think I did a little better here because I wasn't as nervous ... but still nervous

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0cGOOgc87I

Please don't be to harsh. This is the first video I've ever made and displayed publicly. This was actually also my first full video recording. I've only done audio so far. I'd like to accomplish so much more before I start to think I'm ready for Youtube. But never the less here it is

I warn you. The video quality is horrible. And the sound quality is even worst. It's a Yamaha P95 and you will hear the thumping of the keys. It's horrendous. I've been meaning to upgrade my set up but for now this is what I'm working with.

Thanks everyone

Great, thank you for posting!

I have the exact same difficulty with recording. In order of nervousness that I experience (from most to least nervous), it is:

1. In front of other extremely talented musicians (pianists or not)
2. In front of any of my teachers (mostly because of #1)
3. In front of a recording device
4. In front of a live audience

Back to your post..

Would you say this is an example of something you play well, or something you're having difficulty with? (Forget the recording for a second.. I mean in general.)

I would say its something I play well considering the difficulty of the song, length of the song, the length of time I've been playing, and the fact that if it wasn't on video I could play it near perfectly.

What gets to me most is listening and hearing it as it is. But thinking how it could be if I could only count perfectly with no difficulties.

But then when I think of how much I have left to learn in terms of scales. How much I'm still working towards achieving with my scales, I say to my self that I can't be too hard on myself until only after I've acquired that level of sophistication with my scales. Which is why I work so hard at trying to internalize and learn them entirely. Because I believe it something that isn't simply a 'nice to know' but a 'need to know'

What do you think? =D

Sounds like you need rythm. ALL music has rythm. To get rythm, do these things:

Play small parts only until they swing.
Move the body parts; don't be a shoe starer.
Observe drummers.
Learn to dance.
Learn Hand Jive. Cool idea!
Study piano riffs.
If a metronome is used, run it progressively slower with more playing between beats.

I’m working with Philip Johnston’s Scales Bootcamp, which was highly recommended by a bunch of people on this forum. It has a logical, progressive classification and some really interesting variations.

So far I’m doing 2 octave C Major and the two octave chromatic scale beginning on C. I won’t add another until I can play C Major in parallel motion comfortably for at least two octaves. I can manage it slowly but not smoothly as I sometimes have to pause during it. To get going on parallel I actually added one or two notes at time until I could do two octaves. Worked out pretty well.

My teacher also has me doing Alfred’s Junior Hanon – which is an eighth note Hanon with each exercise half as long as the original. She emphasizes planning ahead and hand shape – preparing for the next sequence as soon as possible within each exercise. Right now I’m only doing 1 and 2, and both with LH only because my RH is fine but I really need to train my LH to hold position and keep closer to the keys – definitely improving.

Also making good use of my DB-90 metronome.

This is exactly the problem right?

The counting?

I wouldn't think I make any 'playing mistakes' because it sounds like the song. There isn't any MAJOR mistakes. (I know the ending bit has to be smoothed out a little)

Its just rhythm in certain circumstances with alot of different pieces. And this all boils down to, the fact that I can not count what so ever no matter what I've tried to do to learn how.

Which is another reason why I'm trying to work with that metronome and learn quarters, eighths, and sixteenths with each scale.

If it's too hard to count while playing, or to play with a metronome, try just tapping out rhythms from your sheet music while counting or using the metronome. Start with one-handed (single line) rhythms, then work up to two handed ones.

This worked really well for me. When I stared I really couldn't count while playing, and the metronome totally flipped me out. But getting used to counting and tapping, or tapping along with the metronome helped me get used to this stuff. Now I find myself counting without thinking about it when I hit a tricky bit of sight reading, and I actually *like* my metronome.

.

This is interesting because I find myself tapping my foot regardless even though I can't count the rhythm. It's like an automatic thing that happens once I've played a piece enough.

In the piece I recorded. Does anyone see it as "making it your own" I think I read that in a previous reply so I'm wondering if their is a correlation here. (I was tapping the foot throughout as well)

I really don't think I had a rhythm issue in that particular piece. Maybe segments that need to be smoothed over. But I thought I was as accurate as I could be. I've gone over that piece so many times at a painfully slow pace. That the only thing I could think I'm missing is the 'dead accuracy' of being able to count it note for note while playing it.

But like I said. This counting dilemma exists with EVERYTHING I know how to play. Regardless of how well I know to play it. I can NOT count it.

I'll try the trick listed below for counting. As well as definitely using the metronome more with the tapping of the foot. What I want to avoid is (considering I don't know how to account) - turning on the metronome and just letting it beat while I try to play a piece and have no idea what I'm doing because I wouldn't be able to count properly enough to give myself the start I would need.

A situation like that would make me think I'm better off to just learn the divisions of scales at speed first, then go on to trying to grasp the rest. Because after all 4/8/16ths speed in scales, is that not exactly what counting is?

I don't think you should be trying. You need to internalize common subdivisions, but I don't think you'll have an easy time of this while trying to play music. Try setting the metronome and tapping out different beats on a desk. Internalize the subdivision, and then when you see it in music, you won't have to count it.

I, too, think you did a decent job with the piece. A couple little flubs, but nothing major. Keep at it. Try the above.. see if it helps.