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#1963523 - 09/24/12 04:48 AM How to play Gm/F?
NordF Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/27/11
Posts: 11
Loc: Sweden
I am looking at a lead sheet in G minor, one Chord indication is Gm/F.

Gm = G- Bb -D => there is no F in the G minor Chord so it can't be an inversion, can it?
Should I play an F together with the Chord with the RH?

Thanks

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#1963525 - 09/24/12 05:00 AM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: NordF]
Newman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/27/11
Posts: 700
Loc: Australia
It's called a slash chord. Gm with an F in the bass. For some odd reason the LH/RH is inverted in slash chords. What's indicated on the left is played with the right hand and what's indicated on the right is played with the left. I'd play Gm/F as LH: F and D RH: G Bb D (or whatever inversion you fancy).
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#1963526 - 09/24/12 05:03 AM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: NordF]
keystring Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
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I started with classical training, and learned letter name notation afterward. I first thought that slash chords meant inversions. So I thought that first inversion Gm is written as Gm/B, and second inversion Gm was written as Gm/D. It is true that they are, but the opposite is not true --- the slash chord does not "mean" an inversion. The slash chord simply tells you which note is on the bottom.

So you can have a chord which contains G, Bb, and D, but it has F on the bottom for whatever reason. That's what this is. One reason you might have it is if you have a pedal tone F.

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#1963536 - 09/24/12 06:03 AM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: NordF]
tsulej Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/12/12
Posts: 17
Loc: Warsaw, Poland
Sometimes meaning of the chord is ambiguous. Especially in jazz notation. Gm could mean Gm7, Gm9, Gm11 and so on. This time Gm/F is third inversion of Gm7 chord. And you are allowed to add 9, 11, do some alterations which doesn't change role of this chord.


Edited by tsulej (09/24/12 08:01 AM)
Edit Reason: it wasn't first inversion...
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#1963551 - 09/24/12 07:24 AM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: tsulej]
keystring Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
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Originally Posted By: tsulej
Sometimes meaning of the chord is ambiguous. Especially in jazz notation. Gm could mean Gm7, Gm9, Gm11 and so on. This time Gm/F is first invertion of Gm7 chord. And you are allowed to add 9, 11, do some alterations which doesn't change role of this chord.

I just remembered hearing that if the 7 is in the bass, it's not put in the chord name. Thanks.

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#1963556 - 09/24/12 07:36 AM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: NordF]
EJR Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 861
Loc: Bristol, UK
Try reading the slash (/) as "over" so it's Gm (right hand) "over" F (left hand) [but how you apportion the notes is up to you].
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#1963701 - 09/24/12 01:38 PM How to play Gm/F? [Re: tsulej]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: tsulej
Sometimes meaning of the chord is ambiguous. Especially in jazz notation. Gm could mean Gm7, Gm9, Gm11 and so on. This time Gm/F is third inversion of Gm7 chord. And you are allowed to add 9, 11, do some alterations which doesn't change role of this chord.

Ah . . . NO.

While I have seen this as a growing opinion on this, as well as the Non-Classical Pianist Forum, it is not safe to assert that the symbol Gm could mean anything other than the notes G and Bb and D. All the chords you cite have very specific colors, and equally specific circumstances where they will work well.

Here is the confusing part: particularly in jazz improvisation, the player is free to spontaneously “extend” chords, which typically means adding some sort of seventh, or ninth, or eleventh, or thirteenth. Depending upon the jazz player’s skill, sometimes that works brilliantly, and oftentimes not so much. In any event, the spontaneous elaboration does not in any way indicate that the composer’s base chord needs to be altered, or can be freely extended. The extension cannot be done at random, or capriciously, and be successful. It takes advanced skill and experience on the part of the improviser to know when certain flavors of extension or alteration actually work.

So, technically, a Gm/F is, as KeyString originally stated, a G minor triad that happens to have an F in the bass at that point in time. That is what the composer or the arranger intends – plain and simple. It MIGHT also be FUNCTIONING as a Gm7 in third inversion, but that requires an analysis, and depends upon the surrounding harmonies.

Ed
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#1963713 - 09/24/12 02:02 PM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: EJR]
Brian Lucas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 995
Originally Posted By: EJR
Try reading the slash (/) as "over" so it's Gm (right hand) "over" F (left hand) [but how you apportion the notes is up to you].
Took the words right out of my mouth. Saying "G minor over F" will help you keep it straight as to which hand is which.

There are 2 types of slash chords. The ones where the bass note is in the chord are called "inversions" which could lead to the confusion. The other type is called a "hybrid" and it's an easier way to explain a complex chord. This is of the second type.

Either way, you play them the same.
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#1963721 - 09/24/12 02:13 PM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: Newman]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Newman
It's called a slash chord. Gm with an F in the bass. For some odd reason the LH/RH is inverted in slash chords. What's indicated on the left is played with the right hand and what's indicated on the right is played with the left. I'd play Gm/F as LH: F and D RH: G Bb D (or whatever inversion you fancy).

Because it is not supposed to be written that way. The slash is supposed to be under the RH chord, like this:

Gm
--
F

Things get screwed up because of typing. And it's a way of saying play a Gm7 chord but inverted. It shows that the F is in the bass.

Typical example:

Gm, Gm/F, Ebmaj7
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#1963736 - 09/24/12 02:41 PM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: NordF]
NordF Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/27/11
Posts: 11
Loc: Sweden
Thank you!

So if I understood correctly the chord progression should be played like that:
1 Gm G Bb D
2 Gm/F F Bb D
3 Eb Eb G Bb
4 Eb/D D G Bb
5 Cm C Eb G

In Gm/F the "G root" should be replaced by an "F root" and same in Eb/D the "Eb root" should replaced by a "D root"

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#1963753 - 09/24/12 03:13 PM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: NordF]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3196
Loc: Maine
No. The slash note is in addition to the other notes in the chord, not a replacement for them. You are perhaps confusing "root" with "lowest note played."

To correct what you've written: Add G to your line #2, anywhere higher than the F. Add Eb to your line #4, anywhere higher than the D.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (09/24/12 07:59 PM)
Edit Reason: added clarity. I hope.
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#1963754 - 09/24/12 03:14 PM How to play Gm/F? [Re: NordF]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Nope . . . (but Yes to what PianoStudent88 just posted.)

Gm = G Bb D

Gm/F = G Bb D with an F as the lowest note

Eb = Eb G Bb

Eb/D = Eb G Bb with a D as the lowest note

Cm = C Eb G

Cm/D = C Eb G with a D as the lowest note

[Chord Name] / [Note Name] = [All the notes of the triad or chord] sitting above the [Note Name in the bass].
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#1963819 - 09/24/12 05:27 PM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: NordF]
jjo Offline
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 653
Loc: Chicago
Just conceptually, the sequence you've got is indicating a moving bass line, more than any change in harmony. What you've got is a G minor, moving to Eb major, to C minor, and the composer/arranger wants the bass line to move step wise underneath those chord changes. I I were playing that with a bass player, I'd ignore what's after the slash, but for solo piano, the moving bass line is important. You may not even need to play the whole chord each time. In other words, play G minor, then just an F in the bass, then Eb major, and then just D in the bass. This would bring out what I'm guessing is the intent.

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#1963856 - 09/24/12 06:07 PM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: NordF]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: jjo
Just conceptually, the sequence you've got is indicating a moving bass line, more than any change in harmony. What you've got is a G minor, moving to Eb major, to C minor, and the composer/arranger wants the bass line to move step wise underneath those chord changes.

I stuck that progression in as an example of where I would use it.

Showing the same thing, but with a longer progression, assuming Bb as a possible key:

Bb, Bb/A, Gm, Gm/F, Ebmaj7

This is just an example. It is essentially saying Bb, Bbmaj7, Gm, Gm7, Ebmaj7, but the slashes indicate two things.

1) The “7” is in the bass.
2) Most likely we don’t want to also put the “7” elsewhere because the “voicing” is better.

Quote:

I I were playing that with a bass player, I'd ignore what's after the slash, but for solo piano, the moving bass line is important.

I would do the same thing. Playing those slashed bass notes on piano with a bass player is going to step all over the bass, and it produces mud. smile
Quote:

You may not even need to play the whole chord each time. In other words, play G minor, then just an F in the bass, then Eb major, and then just D in the bass. This would bring out what I'm guessing is the intent.

I think you are right on target. wink
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#1964046 - 09/25/12 02:58 AM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: NordF]
NordF Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/27/11
Posts: 11
Loc: Sweden
I think you nailed it!

Quote:
You may not even need to play the whole chord each time. In other words, play G minor, then just an F in the bass, then Eb major, and then just D in the bass. This would bring out what I'm guessing is the intent.


Quote:

Showing the same thing, but with a longer progression, assuming Bb as a possible key:

Bb, Bb/A, Gm, Gm/F, Ebmaj7

This is just an example. It is essentially saying Bb, Bbmaj7, Gm, Gm7, Ebmaj7, but the slashes indicate two things.

1) The “7” is in the bass.
2) Most likely we don’t want to also put the “7” elsewhere because the “voicing” is better



Thanks!!

The piece:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BzHiD3FRXQJARmVfcGw3ZXgxTzQ

I probably should have started with that.


Edited by NordF (09/25/12 02:38 PM)
Edit Reason: typo

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#1964051 - 09/25/12 03:31 AM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: jjo]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1499
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jjo
In other words, play G minor, then just an F in the bass, then Eb major, and then just D in the bass. This would bring out what I'm guessing is the intent.



You are Albinoni and I claim my £5.

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#1964121 - 09/25/12 08:41 AM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: NordF]
NordF Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/27/11
Posts: 11
Loc: Sweden
Originally Posted By: dire tonic

You are Albinoni and I claim my £5.


You are a winner :-) Even if apparently the credit should not be entirely given to Albinoni but Giazotto

Originally Posted By: Wikipedia

Giazotto is famous for his publication of a work called Adagio in G minor, which he claimed to have transcribed from a manuscript fragment of an Albinoni sonata that he had received from the Saxon State Library. He stated that he had arranged the work but not composed it. He subsequently revised this story, claiming it as his own original composition. The fragment has never appeared in public; Giazotto stated that it contained only the bass line, and the work was copyrighted by Giazotto.


For some unknown reasons Giazotto who made this piece famous to the world would have initially given the credit to Albinoni when it was in reality mostly his own work.

Anyway, Giazotto or Albinoni (or the arranger) are giving me a tough time right now with their Chords ;-) I found the progression quite difficult.

I am puzzle about the Abm and Adim7. It seems a bit tough to do these two Chords in one mesure.

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BzHiD3FRXQJARmVfcGw3ZXgxTzQ

Does it makes sense for rest of you? Is it just (much) practice needed on my side.

Thanks!

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#1964123 - 09/25/12 08:51 AM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: NordF]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3196
Loc: Maine
That's not Abm. It's Amb5, read "A minor, flat 5". It means take an A minor chord (A C E) and flat the fifth (A C Eb). Don't play the Am (that's just a starting point for figuring out the notes). Just play the end result Amb5 (A C Eb). This is a diminished triad. So then for Adim7 you just add the diminished seventh (Gb). So the measure is Amb5 (A C Eb) followed by Adim7 (A C Eb Gb).
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#1964132 - 09/25/12 09:19 AM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: NordF]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1499
Loc: uk south
- I claim the reward, not for tune recognition, but for outing Albinoni who's posting here as jjo. How else could he have divined Albi's intentions? (I didn't know about Giazotto - interesting. I suppose we'll never know the truth.)

btw, a few corrections are needed in your chart

12: Gm/Bb
19: Gm/Bb to Cm (arguably Cm6)
21: first melody note A natural (not flat)

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#1964142 - 09/25/12 09:47 AM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: NordF]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1499
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: NordF

Anyway, Giazotto or Albinoni (or the arranger) are giving me a tough time right now with their Chords ;-) I found the progression quite difficult.


- just to say, I think you're going about this in exactly the right way. I'm not a teacher but if I were, this is what I would encourage before trying to get to grips with structure and generalities. Your next effort will be that much easier. If possible do some more work on charts in a similar key so that you know how to get to these chords quickly before branching out into other keys.

Finally, or maybe as soon as you feel you're getting a grip, take a closer look at the geometry of chords generally so that you can apply the rules without further reference.

Quote:

Does it makes sense for rest of you? Is it just (much) practice needed on my side.


- yes, and that's all that's required!



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#1964156 - 09/25/12 10:17 AM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: NordF]
Brent H Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/11
Posts: 843
If you just play a series of chords matching some arbitrary list of chord names it will sound like poo. Of all the permutations possible to play a given series of five chords, the majority will sound bad and only a handful of voicings will sound musical.

So your practice ought to be 1% chords in isolation and 99% chords in musically pleasing progressions. Start by learning the progressions that show up over and over in the kinds of music you want to play (or write). You're better off knowing how to properly play three specific chord progressions in two keys than knowing where to find twenty different isolated chords in thirteen keys.
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#1964164 - 09/25/12 10:32 AM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: NordF]
Kbeaumont Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 271
Loc: Virginia, USA
I know that an Adim7 is (A C Eb Gb). What always confused me about it is that an A6 chord is (A,Db,E,Gb) and A7 is (A,Db,E,G) then why is the 6th interval (Gb) called a 7th in the Adim7?
Especially since Adim is (A, C, Eb) wouldn't have made more sense to call it Adim6 since a 6th interval is just added to a diminished chord? The Adim7 has neither a maj7 (Ab) nor a Dominant 7th (G) but clearly has the 6th (Gb).
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#1964179 - 09/25/12 11:01 AM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: NordF]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3196
Loc: Maine
Regarding the Amb5 Adim7 measure: I wonder if it's supposed to be Am7b5 Adim7. This makes the first chord A C Eb G, and matches up with what's happening with the melody.

The reason why I started wondering about this is because later on Adim is used. Since there's both an Adim7 and an Adim, I would guess the Adim is being used strictly and means the diminished triad A C Eb. Why then would Amb5 be used? Why not Adim Adim7 instead of Amb5 Adim7? And that's when the thought of Am7b5 occurred to me.
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#1964189 - 09/25/12 11:20 AM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: Kbeaumont]
LoPresti Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Kbeaumont
I know that an Adim7 is (A C Eb Gb). What always confused me about it is that an A6 chord is (A,Db,E,Gb) and A7 is (A,Db,E,G) then why is the 6th interval (Gb) called a 7th in the Adim7?
Especially since Adim is (A, C, Eb) wouldn't have made more sense to call it Adim6 since a 6th interval is just added to a diminished chord? The Adim7 has neither a maj7 (Ab) nor a Dominant 7th (G) but clearly has the 6th (Gb).


I have to say, that I really do not know where to begin . . .

Could you quote a theory book or two where you got this information?

This is going to be my Case Study the very next time Gary asserts that correct spelling is not that important.

Ed
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#1964208 - 09/25/12 11:57 AM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: NordF]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3196
Loc: Maine
Kbeaumont, I think you ask a good question, and fundamentally to me it has to do with the fact that sound is not the same as notation. A to F# and A to Gb both sound the same on the piano. But if they are written on the staff, A to F# is called a major sixth and A to Gb is called a diminished seventh.

So the "7" in an Adim7 chord written A C Eb Gb is a diminished seventh: A-Gb.

This is an exception to the usual rule for "7" in a chord name. Normally, "7" in a chord name means a minor seventh. For example, A to G. The two exceptions are maj7 which means a major seventh (e.g. A-G#), and dim7 which packages up a diminished triad (e.g. A C Eb) and a diminished seventh (A-Gb) all in one package.

It's not entirely that simple though, because on the staff for various reasons the chord that is called Adim7 on a lead sheet, might be written differently on the staff: A C Eb Gb, or A C Eb F#, or A C D# F#, etc. All of these will look different on the staff, but involve the exact same notes on the keyboard. In some of those you see the A-F# interval, and yes, that's a major sixth, but for economy of chord names this set of physical notes is still called Adim7, using the lowest note for the chord name.

In the strict notation world of music theory based on simple examples of Baroque and Classical harmony, where I first learned about chord names, the different notations would have different names, which I represent purely for my own uses in a personal hybrid way as Adim7, F#dim7/A, and D#dim7/A, for the three different spelling examples I gave above. But the world has moved on since the days of Baroque harmony and figured bass, and these other slash names are not used on lead sheets, and all the spellings are just labelled as Adim7.

I'm going to be on the lookout for an Adim6 on a lead sheet, though smile .
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#1964225 - 09/25/12 12:20 PM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: Kbeaumont]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3196
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: Kbeaumont
I know that an Adim7 is (A C Eb Gb). What always confused me about it is that an A6 chord is (A,Db,E,Gb) and A7 is (A,Db,E,G) then why is the 6th interval (Gb) called a 7th in the Adim7?
Especially since Adim is (A, C, Eb) wouldn't have made more sense to call it Adim6 since a 6th interval is just added to a diminished chord? The Adim7 has neither a maj7 (Ab) nor a Dominant 7th (G) but clearly has the 6th (Gb).

Distinguishing sound from notation: you clearly know your chords, and which notes on the piano they are. What you may not be aware of is that there are some conventions about how we usually name the notes when referring to chords.

On the other hand, these conventions can be violated when the chords are notated on the staff, depending on what comes before and after the chord. I suggested some of those in what I wrote about dim7 chords, above, where the lead sheet's Adim7 might be notated in several different ways on the staff, depending on what else is happening in the music.

When referring to the notes of an A major triad, it will usually be referred to as A C# E, so that the spelling clearly exhibits a major third and a perfect fifth. In sound, A-C# and A-Db sound the same; in notation A-C# is called a major third and A-Db is called a diminished fourth. There may be situations where the staff notation actually is A Db E, and then the astute listener will detect "that's just a plain old A major chord", and a lead sheet will just say "A" above the staff.

When referring to the notes of an A6 chord, I would normally call it A C# E F#. This gives strict interval names of major third (A C#), perfect fifth (A E) and major sixth (A F#). The precise staff notation used will depend on what comes before and after the chord, so I can imagine there might be situations where the staff notation is A Db E Gb but the lead sheet notation above the staff is "A6".
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#1964251 - 09/25/12 01:16 PM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: NordF]
Kbeaumont Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 271
Loc: Virginia, USA
I am aware of the convention and I am also aware that the convention is not set in stone. Like i before e in English doesn't really account for heir, height and a myriad of other exceptions.
If I were composing on a staff, I would choose the convention based on the key signature. But that's not the crux of my comment.

My comment is about the interval not being a 7th from the tonic in any other chord. In Adim7 the F#/Gb is called a 7th, whereas it is 6th in every other variation of A in which it is used (A6, Am6). The reason is I am asking is that not every player reads a staff and it is not intuitive. A player should be able to intuitively construct a chord written on a lead sheet for example from their knowledge of notes and intervals and having exceptions requires memorization.
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A long long time ago, I can still remember
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#1964257 - 09/25/12 01:23 PM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: NordF]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3196
Loc: Maine
Oh, now I see what you're saying. Interesting point. I learned about dim7 chords YEARS before I ever learned about 6 chords, and I'm very fond of dim7 chords, so I had never noticed this dim7 vs. 6 before. I suppose the answer is "history". Maybe you're the bellwether of a lead-sheet transformation from dim7 to dim6.
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#1964258 - 09/25/12 01:24 PM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: NordF]
Brent H Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/11
Posts: 843
Perhaps if one is not willing to learn to read music and one is also not willing to learn the conventions of lead sheet chord shorthand (exceptions and all) then one would be best served simply playing by ear. If it's not too much trouble.
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#1964261 - 09/25/12 01:27 PM Re: How to play Gm/F? [Re: Kbeaumont]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4814
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Kbeaumont
I know that an Adim7 is (A C Eb Gb). What always confused me about it is that an A6 chord is (A,Db,E,Gb) and A7 is (A,Db,E,G) then why is the 6th interval (Gb) called a 7th in the Adim7?

First, be aware that the chord notated with the symbol Adim or Adim7 has four spellings, based on the fact that for all spellings A will continue to be you bottom note or bass note.

A C Eb Gb = Adim7
A C Eb F#= Adim7
A C D# F#= Adim7
A B# D# F#= Adim7

Because of this strange quirk in LCs (letter chords), some people prefer to stack the notes this way and use a slash, for analysis and theoretical reason:

A C Eb Gb = Adim7
A C Eb F#= F#dim7/A
A C D# F#= D#dim7/A
A B# D# F#= B#dim7/A

The reason for his is that theoretically dim7 chords have roots, usually different from the bass note. So theoreticians try to stack the letters this way:

A C Eb Gb = Adim7
C Eb F# A= F#dim7
D# F# A C= D#dim7
B# D# F# A= B#dim7

If this makes your head spin, just let it go. But the textbook explanation is that these chords, also called “fully diminished”, have to be stacked so that you have every other letter. Because the LC symbol “Adim7”, which also appears as “Adim” to show all four notes always has four potential spellings, you really have to know what the next chord is in order to pick the best spelling.

I am guessing that you are an ear player. If that is so, these spellings mean nothing to you. You are going by keys, what you hear, and the keys that readers give names to are just black keys for you. If this is so, people who read music easily will not understand your spellings. I will try to demystify this for you in a moment. wink
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