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Hold on, a minute. I think I know what you are saying, Richard. What has thrown this off for me is that you have been talking about the way a phrase *ends*. In fact, if you're talking about a new key, we're really talking about the way the new key *begins*. Maybe it's a matter of perception.

So you've got this music that has been chugging along merrily in the key of D. Then the music seems to shift but it's still in D, and then it starts having (in the case of this piece) some spatterings of G# which aren't in the key of D, but is very much the leading note of A as well as a note in the V or Dominant chord of A. So it teases us along until suddenly it cadences E7 A. And then the music starts chugging along merrily in the key of A. That's what you're talking about.

Well, the part that starts with spatterings of G#, where maybe it has Em for a while but is still in D, and then goes on having E (with the G#) hinting at a new key, that is the transitional section or bridge. That bridge ENDS with an E7 A cadence which announces the new key. It also BEGINS the new key. It then establishes that key for our ear because, as I wrote before, we typically hear lots of I V's or other combinations that hover around the new I or i, as the new tonic gets extended (emphasized through repetition).

This is also an answer to P88's question. I wouldn't hear it only through a cadence. What really makes me hear the new key is the emphasis of the new tonic and tonic chord of that new key.

I might regret asking this, but: what's the difference between a tonic and a key?

Is it saved as jpg?
On the right there is a drop-down menu and you'll find "share". Go to "get link to file". I choose "direct link". Copy the URL it gives you (ctrl C for copy).

Then on PianoWorld the fourth icon to the right says "enter an image". click that, and paste your URL into the box. "Preview post" should show your image.

I did not see it at all. I was not overly confident in disclosing for this reason. But, when I listened to these sections back to back, it seemed like we could take elements from each, overlay them and make a nice choral arrangement. They just sound very similar.



I had a feeling this wasn't going to be good.

Something PS88 mentioned awhile back (when you start seeing alot of #'s and b's together, I would expect minor.) Well certainly not a lot here. But I was trying to account for the Bb. I had a C# dim here or rootless A7.

I guess I need to stop getting so anxious about accounting for every accidental until a pattern is confirmed.

I then saw D A7b9 (rootless again) in M50, but that was as far as I got before hitting the hay.

Can we go over (summarize) all the keys in this section again? I've read all the notes but still not clear of where we think the transitions are taking place and to what keys.

This doesn't show the image but a link.
I'm expecting to see an image.

This, if you can see it, is the similiarity I get between first and second subjects of Sonatina #6

[img]https://www.box.com/s/xxgh8c3usd9wtkculfe6[/img]

I might regret answering this but: the tonic lasts for the duration of the piece, the key is a more transient thing that's passed through until the eventual return to tonic.

Sonatina No. 6 - Allegro con spirito

Aha, M50! So now I know where you are! It's the passage from M48-56.

I'd say we were in D major and passing through varying chords rather than keys on our way to the dominant preparation in M54-56 for the return to tonic in M57.

The chords I think are being used are those I listed earlier.

Sonatina No. 6 - Allegro con spirito


Good. Happy I had A major in correct place and concur with return to tonic of course in M57.



No worries there. I'm also a lot more confident in your selections than mine. Just wanted to point out my findings in case there was something blatantly wrong that may have been leading me astray.

If you take the URL that you see first, you'll get the kind of address that you have.
[img]https://www.box.com/s/8xtl8z3cz50nu9ev9583[/img]

INSTEAD, go to the blue drop-down which you'll find BELOW that link, "go to direct link", and you'll see a URL that ends with "jpg" like this

https://www.box.com/shared/static/8xtl8z3cz50nu9ev9583.jpg


If you paste that in, you'll get an image.

"Tonic" means "note 1" of the (any) key. In C major it is C, in G minor it is G, and in G major it is G (in each case, the note). If you are in a different key because the music has modulated, then that key also has a tonic, which you can also recognize as the tonic.

When I wrote about "tonic extension" (I V I, I V6 I6, I I6 I) etc., these are devices that are used to make us hear what key a piece is in, or recognize it visually (by reading the music). The tonic is the note that the music hovers around, because it is in that key, and wants to return to. So if we recognize what the tonic is ..... where the music wants to return to ..... then we also recognize what key it is in. This is as true in a modulated section as it is for the main key of the piece.

Maybe we should use "tonic of the piece" and "key of the piece" to distinguish. The word "tonic" itself does not have such a restricted meaning. As for key, when music has modulated to a new key, everything functions within that key according to that key. Knowing and/or feeling and/or hearing it allows us to be oriented in that key. That's how it works for me.

By logic, the tonic and the key are related. One gives clues about the other. So this is important.

It looks like we've had a terminology misunderstanding.

The direct link for an image is a €13/month subscription which is beyond its value.

When this sonatina moves into A it has gone into the dominant not a new tonic although the dominant has its own tonic so yes, home key or key of the piece works for me. If I remember to use it!

It took me a while and I think I figured out out after looking at your image, Richard.



Unless your music is from a different source that is written differently, then I think you renotated it to show something that you see underneath. This isn't what is actually in the music, but you see underneath the music (possibly). Is that right?

That's exactly right, keystring, otherwise I could have just quoted the measure numbers. This is my own variation of the themes to show how I hear the similarities.

Richard, I have taken your notation just as you wrote it, but started with the original from where you said you found this, namely measures 1 - 2 for subject 1, and after measure 22 for subject 2. Then put your notation of what you see under the original. (I hope this makes sense).

If this is incorrect, let me know. If correct, maybe it will help others follow your line of thinking.

Yep, that's good, keystring. I suspect just the RH would have done. You've not filled out first subj. RH fully from the original but the correlation with mine will do.

I put in the LH for a reason.
I filled out only those parts that I thought you were drawing directly from. You have two measures in your notation.

I wasn't drawing from the LH if that's what you meant.

In the first subject I shortened the ornamental opening, changed the D and A into quarter notes (from dotted quarter and eighth) and mixed up the rising eighths into two quarter notes (just the D and F# would have done). These eighths are the notes you're missing in your extract. I also modified the falling octave at the end.

In the second subject I just changed the B and E to an E and F#.

In each instance I changed some notes but kept the meaning the same.

Thank you for explaining. I think it was important to know what you did, because I could imagine a number of people in the group hunting for the similarities that you found directly in the music, and obviously not finding them. It was potentially confusing (and I was confused myself briefly) and now I'm not confused about what you did and found.


Right. But the LH contains information that I felt was important after going back and forth with this. That is why I chose to include it.

OK, I'm good with all that, keystring. Thanks for your help and clarification.

Sonatina #6, movement 1

Greener, on the mixed up sharps and flats around m.50, you remembered what I said correctly, that it suggests a minor key. Now to get more precise about finding which minor key.

There are several specific clues suggesting a key (even if it's just shifting and not established).

1. The sharp among flats is typically the leading tone.

2. The flats that appear should agree with the key signature of the proposed key.

3. The chords should agree with the key: for example if there is a dominant seventh chord, it should be built on the fifth degree of the proposed key. If there is a diminished seventh chord (or rootless seven chord, if you prefer), it should be built on the leading tone of the proposed key. (Occasionally it will be built on the second degree.)

Sometimes the implied key is shifting quickly, every measure or more often.

Applying these ideas to the passage that you suggested was G minor: are they consistent with G minor? If not, what different key do they suggest?