Steve, thank you for your reply.



It’s very probable, maybe I am deaf but to me many digital pianos sound very similar. For example, using headphones, I REALLY like the main piano on my old Roland FP7. Personally I don’t hear big improvement sound wise as far as the Roland FP-7f is concerned. But once again, maybe I’m deaf .



That’s the point! Maybe it’s the beginning of arthritis but the abrupt bottoming out of my Roland PHA II action is just plainly hurting my hands. Thirty minutes of playing and I feel pain in my fingers. At the same time I am able to practice on my acoustic upright for much, much longer.
I would risk to say that Roland actions (to me PHA III is the same) can be fingers joints killers if you are over forty.

Fatar actions in Nord pianos aren’t any better in this matter.

I love Yamaha sounds but its actions never impress me much.Avant Grands are beasts from another world.

So the winner in this competition seems to be obvious - Kawai.
Thanks to Kawai James and his magnificent job on this Forum I am definitely Kawai Man, never neither playing nor even seeing a single Kawai instrument…:).
(James, you should get a really big rise in your salary and immediate promotion ).

So at present my favorites are MP6, MP10, ES7 or MP7 and MP11 with their Grand Feel actions – I have no doubts we will see descendants of MP6 and MP10 equipped according to CA 65/95 lines. I will visit Thomann store as soon as they have CA65/95. It is only about 900 km drive .

(Please forgive my language mistakes but I very seldom write in English)

@James or other Kawai expert; I repeat my question about the three pedal option for the ES; since it seems to lack a third pedal input (expression) , could one of the three pedals of this optional unit be programmed/ used as an expression pedal. E.g. For Wah sounds (clavinet, Ep). Otherwise idea for future firmware update ? Will only work if the other pedals are also continuous; if they are switch types, it'll be a no-go anyway.

AFAIK, the pedals are restricted to damper, soft and rotary speed control, and I believe you need the Kawai F-20 dual pedal for the additional non-damper functions.

For expression pedal control, you will probably need to rig up something via MIDI, using CC#11.

There are two connectors for pedals: one for the f10 and one for the f20 ; on p14 the introduction states you can connect the f10 or (!) the f20. It goes never in detail about what happens if you use both and what the options are for the three pedals you have with the combination of both. How the "three pedal board" is connected and what control options it provides is also not clear. Thats why I would like to know...would be nice of you could use sort of an expression pedal somehow...

Ok, well the Kawai wooden actions are very forgiving at the bottom of the travel and would probably be the best choice for you. Likewise, although they are not of the same general quality the Korg RH3 action has a softness at the end of the key travel that is very comfortable.

The irony is that I played a Kawai K2 upright yesterday and its action had extremely abrupt and hard key bottoming. It was used, but in decent condition.

By the way, your English is very good!

Cheers,

Steve

It does tell you the options in the manual, and that does not include expression. As I said in my post, unless I am very much mistaken, the only option for an expression pedal is via MIDI.

As for 3 pedals, it seems you are restricted to 2 via the damper and damper/soft inputs. The F-20 provides both damper and soft, and therefore connecting an additional damper pedal would be redundant. It MAY be possible to use two independent damper and soft pedals, but that would still restrict you to the damper/soft/rotary options. Unless Kawai offers a firmware update to include additional functionality, you're back to MIDI for that.

Think of it this way, the ES7 is not designed to be a full stage piano. The ES7 relates to the MP6 in the same way that the Roland FP-7F relates to the RD-700NX (or 300NX). The FP-7F is a compromise when it comes to using it live, so if you need all the additional functionality, you need to buy the NX.

You're probably right. Thanks or the clarification . If there is indeed some extra gain in adding the third pedal, 'someone' might know (and post accordingly ) , otherwise it's probably as you said. Damp/ soft, no additional frills...and only the damper with continuous / half pedal function.

Wish there was an mp6 II / 7 on the horizon, or upgrade path to RH II for the current MP ;-)

The ES7 features three pedal connectors, intended for the following pedals:

- F-10H (single pedal, 1/4" jack, digital)
- F-20 (double pedal, 1/4" jack, analogue)
- F-301 (triple pedal, mini-DIN jack, digital)

As far as I am aware, the ES7 does not allow pedal functions to be re-assigned, nor does it allow multiple pedal units (e.g. F-10H + F-20) to be connected simultaneously.

However, I am grateful for the interesting suggestions in this thread - some of which have been forwarded to the development team.

Cheers,
James
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Triple sensor question ( probably a stupid one, but nevertheless); will the triple sensitivity also be output to Midi out , so you can more subtly control a SW piano ? My technological knowledge says yes of course, but since assumption is always dangerous I'll ask it anyway.

So will the extra key-down info (or half-key down if you like) be used for external sound sources (correctly output through Midi). Or will only internal sounds benefit from this 3 sensor feature...?

Typically three sensor actions do not transmit partial key down information per se. The MIDI signal sent is either NOTE ON (and the velocity) or NOTE OFF.

The thing with a two-sensor action is that every NOTE ON is followed by a NOTE OFF. So if you play the same note three times quickly you might get

NOTE ON (34)
NOTE OFF
NOTE ON (52)
NOTE OFF
NOTE ON (39)
NOTE OFF

As if the damper was silencing the note in between each strike. However, in a grand piano you can hit the string again without lowering the dampers or resetting the hammer completely. In MIDI speak this is typically transmitted as

NOTE ON (34)
NOTE ON (52)
NOTE ON (39)
NOTE OFF

If your piano tone generator is smart enough, it will interpret this as the latter two strikes utilizing the double-escapement feature.

You can think of the highest sensor (the first one tripped as we move the key down) as controlling the damper and the lower two as computing the impact velocity. If you keep the key below the highest sensor, the dampers do not engage and you can hit the key again and again by triggering the lower two. However, if you don't lift the key above the middle sensor, then you don't get any MIDI signals.

Notice that in the ES7, according to James, the velocity at which the key is lifted is also taken into account in some fashion internally. I'm not sure exactly how that works, but the note lift velocity is not used by any external engine that I know of. I assume what would happen is that the NOTE OFF MIDI signal also has a velocity, but AFAIK it is always ignored.

Just a small point to add to Gvfarn's post - the actual sequence generated by Yamaha and Casio pianos is:

Note-On
Note-On
Note-On
Note-Off
Note-Off
Note-Off

I.e - an equal number of Note-Offs is sent. If just one Note-Off is sent to a Yamaha, the note will continue to ring, which of course is not right.

Also, there is at least one software piano that does indeed respond to release velocity - Pianoteq.

Greg.

Thanks for all the technical information. Bottom line is still; will the ES output a signal that does 'half keying' in a way that is useful for SW pianos like pianoteq , or is it only the internal sound engine that benefits from this extra info and will the extra 'half key down' information be ignored by the midi output stream. Perhaps James can give an answer to that question (the techies at Kawai must know this) ?

Similar question for release velocity ; I know the keyboard is capable of handling release velocity but will the release velocity info also be send out over midi ?

Why would I like to know ? Because I will mostly use a SW AP and if the ES7 doesn't transmit any more info over midi than my mp6 currently does (triple sensitivity data ) , than my main reason to crossgrade falls through.

Many thanks if this can be made clear.

Regarding the triple-sensor MIDI stream, I would not be very concerned about that. The worst case would be that it only sends standard Note-On/Note-Off pairs. I.e - you will hear a new note every time you repeat the note, regardless of whether you do a full release or a partial release. This is IMHO by far the most important thing. (if you didn't hear a new note at all when you did a partial repeat, that would of course be a complete failure, and there is no way Kawai would do that).

But, let's assume Kawai follow what appears to be a de-facto standard, and it behaves the same as Yamaha and Casio. (I don't know how Roland do it yet). FWIW, I can report that all my software pianos (I only have a few) seem to behave ok with the triple-sensor MIDI. I have not done any careful testing to see how authentic they are though. (I don't have ready access to a real piano, so this would be difficult). I believe there is, or was, a problem with the Vintage D though. This was quite a while ago so I'd be surprised if it hasn't been fixed by now, if it was ever a problem at all.

There's another issue though. The two DAWs I have tested (Ableton Live Lite and Reaper) do NOT properly handle the triple-sensor MIDI, however fortunately, they both at least produce a usable result. Ableton Live will convert the triple-sensor stream into standard Note-On/Note-Off pairs as soon as the MIDI file is imported or recorded. Reaper does slightly better - it will actually retain the triple-sensor stream, but only until the MIDI is edited. As soon as it is edited, it is converted to Note-On/Off pairs. (it was quite a while ago that I did this testing - if this is important for anyone please do your own testing to verify this)

The difference between the triple-sensor stream and standard MIDI is, IMHO, extremely subtle. All it means is that the triple-sensor stream will produce repetitions that are not damped inbetween each repetition. How audible this is depends on how the piano software behaves.

If anyone has found a DAW that retains the triple-sensor MIDI stream, please advise!

Greg.

(here's a thread from a user who seems to have had triple-sensor problems with Galaxy software pianos: Kontakt and 3-sensor keyboards As I say, this could be out of date now. It's a bit long and convoluted, but has some entertaining hat eating ;^)

Greg.

According to one of the ES7 engineers:



And this from another engineer:



Cheers,
James
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Vintage D (maybe Galaxy) did have a problem with triple sensor actions at some point. Casio was mentioned specifically. Not sure if it's true of Roland. Anyway it was fixed in an update.

Yeah, processing the event stream correctly seems like a good thing, but even if you did get note on, note off, note on, note off, a triple sensor action is decidedly better because you can play more quickly--you don't have to wait for the key to come all the way back up before playing again. I kind of suspect that the difference between having the first note sustain through the second and not is not terribly audible, as greg hints.

I was able to play a prototype ES7 for a few minutes. I don't know if there are much differences with the factory machines that are in the shops now, but here are my thoughts:

1) Action;
- lighter to play than the RH and good repetition.
- Seems to be a bit more quiet as well.

The RH and RH II are much more different than I thought. Going back to the RH feels heavier. That can also be a matter of taste / preference; some people like heavier. I personally like it somewhere in between ;-) In short the action feels a bit more like the PHAIII in the Roland FP7F - which I found lighter and faster to play right from the start - before I bought the MP6.

2) Sound;
- AP's similar to the MP sounds.
- Resonance and side effects are too much overdone ! The pedal-off resonance (when you release the damper) is way to loud and present. Same goes for the fall-back effect - hammer fall-back when you release the keys.
- Hall effects are way overdone. The reverb etc in the presets is way to present and long. You immediately feel the urge to turn it off altogether. It's like being on a cheap fair ;-) The hall effects are indeed much better than before though !

In short: the preset programs that are on the (proto-) ES7 are overdone in terms of AP effects (resonance, damper release, key-off (hammer fall-back)) and in reverb. That can be much more subtile . The physical 'effects' of the keybed are subtile , like let-off mechanism, so why not be a bit more conservative in the effects processing section too ?

Conclusion (with my three minutes time of testing):
- much better keybed , which I really like !
- better EFX (Hall/reverb), but way overdone in the presets
- probably better acoustic effects (resonance, hammer fallback etc), but way overdone in the presets.
- speakers can be very loud, but are pretty indirect and they lack the 'bottom' of bigger speakers of course. They are OK , but don't give the impression of really playing a piano. You'll need the CA/CS series for that (but that's not portable;-).

Again: this was a pre-serial ES7 and not a production machine, so the actual presets can be different in the current offerings ! For the keybed it's a real winner for sure. With Virtual Technician you can always dial back some of the effects that are to present. Or perhaps the presets will be more conservative in new firmware.

.

hi Dave,

I subscribe to your enthusiasm about the ES7. I specifically liked the keys and the speaker volume (although it could be a little more 'direct' to my taste). What did you think about the added effects , both AP acoustic effects (like damper off etc) and the reverbs. On the prototype they were pretty obvious and too much to my taste. Could be that:

1) I had to little time to really go through all the details and settings to make a final judgement, although my first impression really was that I would want to dial back all effects.

2) the final models have updated preset programs that make more subtle use of the available processing.

I certainly didn't want to sound to negative, because I really liked the touch of the keybed RH II and basic sounds. Can't wait to see a model in the stores...

JFP, interesting to read your thoughts about the ES7.

I'm just a little curious about how/where you were able to play an ES7 prototype in Holland, though...

Cheers,
James
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So you weren't impressed with the new Kawai wood action in the CA65?

I was wondering the same thing given that the CA65 looks fantastic on paper, especially with the new GF wooden action. I'm very much looking forward to trying the CA65 when my closest dealer (in New Hampshire) has one in stock.

K.

.

Thanks for the clarification, Dave. What was the 'street price' of the new ES7 including the factory furniture stand and the triple-pedal unit?

Cheers,

Kevin

.

Kawai Europe uploaded a couple of ES7 product demonstration videos last night:

German:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2Y3diPSex4

English:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD6XvOXrkMk

Note that these videos are rather general in scope, and may not be sufficiently detailed for forum regulars.

Cheers,
James
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"Regarding the effects on the ES7-yeah they were drenched in reverb. "

Yeh, exactly my thoughts. I think the engineers must be really proud on their improved algorithms and are putting it in your face: " here listen to our new reverb , how nice / loud and loooong it is !".

Completely out of context and annoying to my ears and mind. You hear piano drenched in a reverb that sounds like a huge empty stadium, while your ES is standing in front of you in a relatively small space (home / office) and used for practicing. Or worse in a band (making you have to turn the REV off altogether). I assume you can reprogram the presets to have less of this all, but it would be better if Kawai lend someone critical an ES7 and have the presets adjusted more subtle, conservative and realistic settings. I can't imagine anyone would mind if the presets in a next firmware update are less spacey and with more subtle AP resonance effects; lots of effect may impress the ignorant potential customer for a moment , but becomes very distracting very soon when you start to use it in your own environment.

I think I made my point clear; great instrument, great basic sound, but presets need reworking; hope Kawai will listen and take a fresh look at the presets with fresh ears. For my sake someone external and new to the ES with a fresh look...(ear)

J

By the way : I was able to test the ES7 when my MP6 was being fixed. Kawai engineers were so nice to take the unit with them for me to see. Really great service of Kawai !! Small problem with key's in the lowest octaves that made the bottom plate resonate very loud (like hitting the bottom). Problem reported, quick reply from Kawai, engineer comes to my house, problem fixed; as it should be. No questions asked...although I was playing with the thought for a moment of switching to a Numa Piano or Casio (light weight) , I doubt if you get the same service when problems arise ;-)

ES 7 question:

Can you adjust the volume of the internal sound engine in relation to the audio input channels. In other words:

- when you connect the output of a laptop with a software instrument to the input of the ES7 you'll have to adjust the output of the laptop to make it louder or softer in relation to the internal sounds that play along (ES has no input volume control).

- but when you want to decrease the volume of the internal sound, or turn it off altogether; you can't just decrease the volume slider, because than you will decrease the sound of the external input as well (?!). Is there a way to control the volume of internal sound and external sound separately without altering the overall volume. Rather not through sub- sub- sub menu's...

Hope I made my question clear. It would be great to be able to use a software AP together with the AP sounds through the speakers and headphone of the ES in a flexible manner. J

JFP, I'm afraid there is no way to adjust the line input volume on the ES7. The only option is to adjust the volume of the sound source (e.g. the output volume of your computer).

Cheers,
James
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