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#1964979 - 09/26/12 07:58 PM Kawai CA95 & CA93 "let off" behavior
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Wonder as to why Kawai did not implement the feature where a sound can be triggered from the escapement point? And, shouldn't the flagship models have this? As this feature replicates a real acoustic piano.

Here is a good example of playing-off-the-jack in the following demo with Rick DePiro, of Roland:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKL2ESV6KMw

Go to the 5:20 mark, as he demonstrates the escapement point with a short piece, up through 6:22.

The Roland V-Piano also has this feature.

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#1964987 - 09/26/12 08:24 PM Re: Kawai CA95 & CA93 "let off" behavior [Re: pv88]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3583
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
That is very surprising if the CA95 can't do that. I would have thought that was a given with the 3rd sensor being there for repeats without full release of the key. So it can do repeats, but not one-off tones. Very odd!

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#1964988 - 09/26/12 08:26 PM Re: Kawai CA95 & CA93 "let off" behavior [Re: pv88]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2207
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Remember, though, that the AvantGrand has the same limitation - correct?

Greg.

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#1964997 - 09/26/12 08:51 PM Re: Kawai CA95 & CA93 "let off" behavior [Re: pv88]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Update:

Looks like none of their pianos to date (CA63, CA93, CA65, CA95) have had this escapement feature, so it could have been an oversight.

The V-Piano does have the feature, so I do have at least one digital that properly replicates the correct acoustic piano behavior.

Just did get this, from Alan Palmer, at Kawai:

"As you noted none of the Kawai digitals you mention implement this let off feature. I’m not sure what Kawai’s plans may be for this but I have inquired about it and I will let you know what I hear."

The proper behavior (on any acoustic grand) is for a note to sound when played from the escapement point.

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#1965005 - 09/26/12 08:59 PM Re: Kawai CA95 & CA93 "let off" behavior [Re: pv88]
Pelota Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/15/12
Posts: 21
This gives me a bad feeling.
I was thinking of selling my CA93, but now I have my doubts again.

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#1965006 - 09/26/12 09:00 PM Re: Kawai CA95 & CA93 "let off" behavior [Re: pv88]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
Yeah, this is what we have previously called "playing off the jack" and the AvantGrand doesn't do it either. I remember the thread clearly but can't seem to find it at the moment (kippesc verified that this technique does not work on the AG...maybe he even started the thread).

The RD700NX does. I suspect all 3-sensor Rolands do.

It pretty much makes sense that the CA93 and other two-sensor actions do not emulate this behavior. Probably it's not possible with a two-sensor.

To me it doesn't seem like an important feature, but I guess I am a little surprised Kawai and Yamaha didn't bother to incorporate it.


Edited by gvfarns (09/26/12 09:03 PM)

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#1965008 - 09/26/12 09:04 PM Re: Kawai CA95 & CA93 "let off" behavior [Re: Pelota]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: Pelota
This gives me a bad feeling.
I was thinking of selling my CA93, but now I have my doubts again.


@Pelota,

Just buy yourself a Roland V-Piano instead, as none of this is a question mark, there. However, if you don't need the "let-off" feature, then the CA95 would still be an improvement over the CA93.

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#1965012 - 09/26/12 09:09 PM Re: Kawai CA95 & CA93 "let off" behavior [Re: gvfarns]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Yeah, this is what we have previously called "playing off the jack" and the AvantGrand doesn't do it either. I remember the thread clearly but can't seem to find it at the moment (kippesc verified that this technique does not work on the AG...maybe he even started the thread).

The RD700NX does. I suspect all 3-sensor Rolands do.

It pretty much makes sense that the CA93 and other two-sensor actions do not emulate this behavior. Probably it's not possible with a two-sensor.

To me it doesn't seem like an important feature, but I guess I am a little surprised Kawai and Yamaha didn't bother to incorporate it.


@gvfarns,

You are right, as none of the other Kawai's have ever implemented it, and, it now remains to be seen if any other upcoming model will add it in. Even so, perhaps it's not that important of a feature to have if the majority of players do not make use of it.

Although, there must be a reason as to why they didn't implement it?

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#1965015 - 09/26/12 09:12 PM Re: Kawai CA95 & CA93 "let off" behavior [Re: pv88]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2207
Loc: Sydney, Australia
I believe this is the post that gvfarns was referring to:

Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2

Greg.

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#1965047 - 09/26/12 11:00 PM Re: Kawai CA95 & CA93 "let off" behavior [Re: sullivang]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: sullivang
I believe this is the post that gvfarns was referring to:

Re: Presto: From a Kawai MP10 to a Yamaha AvantGrand N2

Greg.


Greg,

Thanks for the additional info, in that link. It seems odd to me that Kawai wouldn't have added the playing-off-the-jack feature in their latest flagship model, the CA95.

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#1965103 - 09/27/12 03:58 AM Re: Kawai CA95 & CA93 "let off" behavior [Re: pv88]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2395
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
This is a non-issue, surely?

Upright pianos can't do this and the two biggest acoustic manufacturers (Yamaha and Kawai) do not equip their digitals with the ability. It's just a salesman's point for people that buy on features rather than quality.

Watching that demo that pv posted immediately reminded me of that ridiculous sudden metallic aggression of the Roland SN sounds at higher velocities. Yuck! I accept the Studio Grand on the RD-700NX doesn't do it, but ALL other SN Rolands do. Now that is something worthy of discussion because it is very inaccurate behaviour.
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1965109 - 09/27/12 04:53 AM Re: Kawai CA95 & CA93 "let off" behavior [Re: EssBrace]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Steve,

I think you are absolutely correct in that this let-off feature is not an important one, since studio uprights do not have this, only grand pianos. And, the actual escapement "click" in a grand action is nothing more than an indication that the hammer has been released from the jack.

Perhaps I have given this feature too much emphasis when it was not really intended, as most players will never use it, in reality. I have thought about this again, as the most important features in a digital are "tone, and, touch"... to directly quote Tom Love of Kawai, from the 1:37 mark up to 1:43, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mQMDmckTMU

So, enough said about the let-off features.

Let's play and enjoy our pianos, right?

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#1965124 - 09/27/12 06:32 AM Re: Kawai CA95 & CA93 "let off" behavior [Re: pv88]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3583
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: pv88
Steve,

I think you are absolutely correct in that this let-off feature is not an important one, since studio uprights do not have this, only grand pianos. And, the actual escapement "click" in a grand action is nothing more than an indication that the hammer has been released from the jack.

Perhaps I have given this feature too much emphasis when it was not really intended, as most players will never use it, in reality. I have thought about this again, as the most important features in a digital are "tone, and, touch"... to directly quote Tom Love of Kawai, from the 1:37 mark up to 1:43, here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mQMDmckTMU

So, enough said about the let-off features.

Let's play and enjoy our pianos, right?


Perhaps the more important question is whether this inability to trigger a note from the escapement point also applies to repeated notes. I suspect it does.

PV, could you tell us how the action responds to rapid repeats? How far do you have to release the key to trigger another note and does it respond with a good velocity when you do?

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#1965145 - 09/27/12 07:43 AM Re: Kawai CA95 & CA93 "let off" behavior [Re: pv88]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9156
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
pv88, I'm just wondering... how much pressure are you applying to the key after 'reaching' the let-off point?

Does pressing the key with greater force after reaching the let-off point produce a sound?

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1965258 - 09/27/12 12:16 PM Re: Kawai CA95 & CA93 "let off" behavior [Re: Kawai James]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3583
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
pv88, I'm just wondering... how much pressure are you applying to the key after 'reaching' the let-off point?

Does pressing the key with greater force after reaching the let-off point produce a sound?

Kind regards,
James
x


Good point James, although I am surprised you don't know the answer already! Do you play most of the Kawai models as part of your job?

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#1965396 - 09/27/12 05:23 PM Re: Kawai CA95 & CA93 "let off" behavior [Re: ando]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9156
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: ando
Good point James, although I am surprised you don't know the answer already! Do you play most of the Kawai models as part of your job?


Yes, I do, however when working on owner's manuals, I typically use prototype models which may feature a previous generation keyboard action, or sometimes no action at all - just a control panel and screen.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1965418 - 09/27/12 06:12 PM Re: Kawai CA95 & CA93 "let off" behavior [Re: pv88]
Pelota Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/15/12
Posts: 21
Originally Posted By: pv88
Just buy yourself a Roland V-Piano instead, as none of this is a question mark, there. However, if you don't need the "let-off" feature, then the CA95 would still be an improvement over the CA93.

As a serious pianist, I do need it. It helps a lot in some situations.
Unfortunately I can't afford a real decent acoustic piano at this moment, so that's why I need the most realistic DP -as long as it's not too expensive for me-

I appreciate your recommendation about the V-Piano, but I find Roland's sound very unnatural compared to the "Mellow Grand" voice of my CA93.

It looks like I will stay with my CA93 for now.

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#1965471 - 09/27/12 08:26 PM Re: Kawai CA95 & CA93 "let off" behavior [Re: ando]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
pv88, I'm just wondering... how much pressure are you applying to the key after 'reaching' the let-off point?

Does pressing the key with greater force after reaching the let-off point produce a sound?

Kind regards,
James
x


Good point James, although I am surprised you don't know the answer already! Do you play most of the Kawai models as part of your job?


@ando & James,

I am not at all concerned with any repetition details (with rapid repeated notes) in the CA95 / V-Piano, as they both can handle just about anything you throw at it, and, are obviously good enough for just about any style of playing.

As for the pressure you apply to trigger a sound from the escapement point (as in the Roland V-Piano, for example) it amounts to a firm quick stroke to produce a sound. You can also make that note sound either softer / louder depending on how quickly the key is depressed.

I don't think that this escapement feature is practical for the majority of players, so it is not an important feature as such.

Just got word back from Tom Love (of Kawai) who mentions this:

"R&D is looking into this and will reply as soon as possible."

Currently, no Kawai digital has the let-off feature.

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#1965612 - 09/28/12 03:44 AM Re: Kawai CA95 & CA93 "let off" behavior [Re: pv88]
sullivang Online   blank
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 2207
Loc: Sydney, Australia
We were discussing Steingraeber's "rolling knuckle" action in here some time ago. IMHO, if a reputable piano manufacturer such as Steingraeber produced an action that essentially removes the let-off feel completely (making it impossible to "play off the jack"), it can't be a critical feature of a piano, surely. (however, not everyone likes the action) If it really is critical, then it's bizarre that they went to all that trouble.

Greg.

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#1969592 - 10/06/12 09:07 PM Re: Kawai CA95 & CA93 "let off" behavior [Re: pv88]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Just did receive the following reply to my question, from Kawai:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Question:

The question I had regarding the let-off was why Kawai did not choose to incorporate "playing of of the jack" with the escapement, meaning that you should be able to sound a soft note ("pp") when pressing the key from the escapement point?

Answer:

We are still studying this point. Hopefully we’ll have an answer soon. Again like the pedal depth no one has ever brought this point up to us before that I can remember so it is a new topic for us.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Therefore, neither the escapement (let-off) feature, or, pedal depth question, has ever been been brought to their attention, until now.

As for the pedal depth question regarding the CA95, nothing will be changed with the current pedal measurements on the CA95, as it is a cabinet style piano which has pedal depth similar to other Kawai acoustic uprights, at 6, or, 7 inches.

Only the Kawai CP209 (ensemble grand digital) has a pedal depth of 10 inches, which is equal to the Kawai EX Concert Grand.

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