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#1965579 - 09/28/12 12:44 AM Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
I have a legitimate complaint about the pedals on the CA95, as who has noticed the shallow distance of how they are positioned?

That is, the front point of pedals are about 5.5 inches from the edge of the keyboard when visually measuring this from above, using a ruler. I am rather tall (at 6' 1'') and this means it feels like the pedals are too close to the player, as they should be at least a couple of inches further back!

My Wurlitzer spinet acoustic (that I traded in) had pedals that were around 9 inches back from the front edge of the keyboard, which is far better. If the pedals are too close then it forces the player to sit further back away from the keyboard so that you end up having to reach for the keys. Or, the player has to compensate by bending their knees outward so that you can lean forward more to get to the correct position. This is very inconvenient for a flagship digital like the CA95.

Wonder as to why these digitals skimp on giving the player sufficient distance with the pedals?

And, why doesn't Kawai make their digital pedal distance the same as in their grand pianos?

With my EP3 the F10H damper pedal can be placed wherever you like.

The pedal depth is not correct with the CA95.

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#1965584 - 09/28/12 01:16 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: pv88]
jarosujo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/12/12
Posts: 237
Loc: Slovakia
I had exactly same problem with Kawai CL-36. However, it's a compact design piano and I moved bottom pedal board "1 screw" to the back - it's attached with 2 screws (instead of 3) to each leg now, but it's stable. Much better position now, but still not perfect.
I am surprised top end cabinet piano has similar problem.
My original thread: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1934887/Re:%20CL-36%20Pedals%20position%20-%20to.html#Post1934887
_________________________
Yamaha NP-V80 (sold)
Yamaha DGX640 (sold)
Kawai CL-36
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#1965588 - 09/28/12 01:26 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: jarosujo]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
@jarosujo,

Thanks for your reply, although I doubt there will be any recourse in trying to change or alter the pedal assembly on the CA95, as the pedals are built into the cabinet, itself.

Very annoying as I had the same issue with the Casio PX-130, and, decided to scrap the triple pedal board that attached to the stand for a separate sustain pedal, that you could place where you wanted it.

Also, the V-Piano is far better is this respect as the triple pedal unit can be placed exactly as it should be, at the correct acoustic-like distance.

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#1965597 - 09/28/12 02:11 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: pv88]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9168
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
pv88,

The relatively slimline design of the CA95 (and CA93), in addition to the instrument's soundboard speaker system, mean that the pedals are indeed a little further forward than on a grand piano.

Unfortunately I am not able to help you further on this matter.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1965605 - 09/28/12 02:53 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: pv88]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Also, I am now asking grand piano owners (in the "Piano Forum") as to what the measurements are on their grands, so that we can compare authentic acoustic pedal distances to the CA95, which is a mere 5.5 inches.

Here is the thread:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1965595

So far, one owner of a Grotrian grand has measured the front-tip-of-pedal-to-edge-of-keyboard to be 267mm, which is 10.5 inches.

That's more like it, as it is all of 5 inches deeper than the CA95. Almost twice the depth.

I knew that I felt scrunched up when sitting at the Kawai!
( As that's not good for your posture, either.)

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#1965630 - 09/28/12 06:01 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: pv88]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3583
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: pv88
Also, I am now asking grand piano owners (in the "Piano Forum") as to what the measurements are on their grands, so that we can compare authentic acoustic pedal distances to the CA95, which is a mere 6 inches.

Here is the thread:

Pedal distance question  

So far, one owner of a Grotrian grand has measured the front tip of pedal-to-edge-of-keyboard to be 267mm, which is 10.5 inches.

That's more like it... as it is all of 4.5 inches deeper than the CA95.

I knew that I felt scrunched up when sitting at the Kawai!
(That's not good for your posture, either.)


I answered in the other thread, but I'll say it here too. My Yamaha U3 is also 10.5". This suggests to me that there might be a sort of standard with respect to pedal placement. I too have noticed I'm often uncomfortable when I play DPs - I just didn't realise that it was related to the pedals. I'm almost 6'6" so it's even more of an issue.

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#1965642 - 09/28/12 07:36 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: pv88]
spanishbuddha Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2359
Loc: UK
This completely glosses over the real problem of pianos with their fixed height keyboard and fixed pedal depth distance.

Only a stage DP with free pedal solves it, unless you have an adjustable bench and pedal extenders.

So you tall guys are complaining at the expense of the short guys wink A de-facto standard is not the answer.

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#1965645 - 09/28/12 07:44 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: spanishbuddha]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3583
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
This completely glosses over the real problem of pianos with their fixed height keyboard and fixed pedal depth distance.

Only a stage DP with free pedal solves it, unless you have an adjustable bench and pedal extenders.

So you tall guys are complaining at the expense of the short guys wink A de-facto standard is not the answer.



That post has nothing to do with the issue at hand though. PV has a problem with comfort at his new piano and there would seem to be no solution for it. It's a great shame. Also, given that there appears to be a fairly standard position for the pedals, which people have for better or worse accepted and got used to, it makes sense for a manufacturer to leave them in that position on a piano where the pedals are fixed. It's annoying because Kawai has done so much on the CA95 to replicate the experience of playing a real piano - these little things spoil the illusion.

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#1965660 - 09/28/12 08:12 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: pv88]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Is it any different to the ca93?
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#1965696 - 09/28/12 10:11 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: pv88]
Justplay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 237
The pedals on my CA95 feel perfect and the bench is the perfect height as well.

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#1965722 - 09/28/12 11:10 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: Justplay]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3583
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Justplay
The pedals on my CA95 feel perfect and the bench is the perfect height as well.


That doesn't mean much to us unless you tell us how tall you are.

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#1965734 - 09/28/12 11:27 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: ando]
bajabill Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/27/12
Posts: 86
Loc: mid USA
Originally Posted By: ando
Originally Posted By: Justplay
The pedals on my CA95 feel perfect and the bench is the perfect height as well.


That doesn't mean much to us unless you tell us how tall you are.


and what you may have been accustomed to already, or what you may want to also use if you have more than one piano to play at.

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#1965737 - 09/28/12 11:35 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: pv88]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3819
Loc: North Carolina
I have a Yamaha CLP240. The front edge of the pedal is set back 7.5" from the front edge of the keyboard.

I no longer have my old Kawai upright for comparison, though it was surely more than 7.5".
Still, I had no problems adapting to the digital.

I'm 6' 4". So I just sit a bit farther back from the digital than from the upright. Long legs come with long arms. No problems here.

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#1965768 - 09/28/12 12:28 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: pv88]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
My old dp has 9.5" from front of keyboard to front of pedals. I am 6 foot tall and completely at ease with the pedal position on the ca95. Different but more concerned with other things personally. Job tonight of going through the sound combination thread for ca93 till i get my 95 just right... happy days :0)
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

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#1965914 - 09/28/12 05:49 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: MacMacMac]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
@MacMacMac,

Even so, your nearly 8 inches on the Yamaha is still far better than the 5.5 inches on the CA95, as that is too far forward for comfort.

I have to sit relatively high at 20 inches, to keep the arms / hands fairly level with the keyboard, and, it is difficult to find the right position with the foot / heel / legs when sitting at the CA95, without contorting something else.

This forces you to sit further back (to reach for the keys) as I tend to like to sit in closer, but then the pedals are no longer at the proper angle for your leg and foot.

It's a shame that Kawai couldn't fashion an acoustic-like distance with the pedals.

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#1965919 - 09/28/12 05:57 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: ando]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: ando
That post has nothing to do with the issue at hand though. PV has a problem with comfort at his new piano and there would seem to be no solution for it. It's a great shame. Also, given that there appears to be a fairly standard position for the pedals, which people have for better or worse accepted and got used to, it makes sense for a manufacturer to leave them in that position on a piano where the pedals are fixed. It's annoying because Kawai has done so much on the CA95 to replicate the experience of playing a real piano - these little things spoil the illusion.


@ando,

The fixed pedal depth on many of these digitals is not adjustable, so this forces the player to adjust his normal playing position / posture to something else.

I am going to try and adapt as best I can to the piano just as it is, but hope that it's not a deal breaker in the future with regards to deciding to keep it.

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#1965931 - 09/28/12 06:28 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: pv88]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
I've been searching on reactions to CA93, and found some interesting information from some Japanese blogs/forums. Despite my lack of understanding of Japanese sentence structure, I can pick up some factual information at least ...http://croakcrawlers.blog7.fc2.com/blog-entry-123.htmlThe writer compares the lengths between the tip of the key to the pivot point among Kawai, Roland and Yamaha DPs. Kawai=19cm, Yamaha and Roland ~= 21.5cm. The writer also commented on the position of the pedal, depth wise, relative to the front of the key panel. CA93 = 20.5cm, Yamaha CLPs ~= 25.5cm, Roland HP207 ~= 27cm, Roland RG3 (digital grand) ~= 29cm. This is related to the overall reduced depth of the CA93 compared to the other models. I have very little experience with playing on a piano (digital or acoustic) with a pedal and therefore really do not know how the key/pedal relation of the CA93 is compared to real pianos. Perhaps it's closer to uprights? How much does it affect playing?




Judging by this quote from another thread, the 93 was similar... I'm guessing not quite as bad though... as I've said, no issue for me but it I just want you to be happy too pv88 :-)
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/PaulGPiano

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#1965932 - 09/28/12 06:32 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: pv88]
Kawai James Online   content
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9168
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: pv88
It's a shame that Kawai couldn't fashion an acoustic-like distance with the pedals.


This is due to the instrument's compact design and soundboard speaker, as explained above. I believe the CA95's pedal distance is the same as the previous generation CA93, and cannot recall this being an issue for customers up until now.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1965986 - 09/28/12 10:29 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: UK Paul UK]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: xhappyrabbitx
The writer also commented on the position of the pedal, depth wise, relative to the front of the key panel. CA93 = 20.5cm, Yamaha CLPs ~= 25.5cm, Roland HP207 ~= 27cm, Roland RG3 (digital grand) ~= 29cm. This is related to the overall reduced depth of the CA93 compared to the other models.

Judging by this quote from another thread, the 93 was similar... I'm guessing not quite as bad though... as I've said, no issue for me but it I just want you to be happy too pv88 :-)


@xhappyrabbitx,

Thanks for that info above, as you can see that even though the CA93 has a pedal depth of 20.5 centimeters, or, about 8 inches, the new CA95 is even less deep at 13.97 centimeters, which is only 5.5 inches. This is the shallowest pedal depth I have seen on any digital, to date. Looks like the construction of the new cabinet and soundboard has taken away needed space from the correct pedal distance, which is apparently not alterable. It is obvious that 5.5 inches is not sufficient depth as compared to 10.5 inches, which can be found in acoustic grands.

It is difficult to be completely happy with it as is, although I may just make use of my other pianos instead for now, i.e., the V-Piano and Kawai EP3, as they both have adjustable pedals.

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#1966014 - 09/29/12 12:21 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: pv88]
fnx Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/12/12
Posts: 5
Loc: Belmont, CA
I wonder if anyone with a CA65 could provide measurement. As it lacks the soundboard, it might gain some leg room
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#1966044 - 09/29/12 02:59 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: pv88]
bluebilly Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 433
Loc: England
I'm 6'4" tall and I do find the pedal distance on the compact Kawai CL35 I bought for my granddaughter to be an issue, as I have to sit further from the piano than normal, which causes me to have to reach for the keys, I can't recall what the measurement was on that piano. However, I just measured the "keys to pedal distance" on my CN33 and it is 7" which is more acceptable when I play. I notice on my CN33 that the cabinet box housing the pedal mechanism appears to be very deep compared with other DP marques, I'm sure there is some room to make that box shallower and hence give a more realistic "acoustic piano distance", a production design problem perhaps?

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#1966046 - 09/29/12 03:15 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: bluebilly]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
@bluebilly,

Yes, as all of us taller players can have some trouble adjusting to the pedals if they are not placed far enough back. The 7 inches that you mention would probably be barely acceptable, as I have placed my Roland V-Piano triple pedal unit at 10.5 inches, as anything over 8 inches is certainly much better.

According to some other acoustic piano owners in the "Piano Forum" it appears that the standard pedal distance ends up being somewhere between 8 and 10 inches on the average, with 8 inches being the minimum distance that is going to be relatively comfortable for taller players.

Look at Van Cliburn (for example), who is all of 6' 4'' and one has to wonder as to how he managed to handle the grands he has played (mainly Steinway "D's"), although you do get the deeper pedal depth with larger grands.

Imagine watching Van Cliburn attempt to play a CA95 with the meager 5.5 inch pedal distance?

His knees would invariably be knocking into the cabinet underneath, I do believe... eek

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#1966048 - 09/29/12 03:42 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: pv88]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
Bluebilly is 6 -4 and handles 7 inches.... ( no smut intended) so I have hopes you'll adapt in time mate.... I'm off to have another session now... just out of interest, I play with no shoes on and maybe if you wear shoes you should try it... plus it's on carpet so the pedal is nearer the floor than if on tiles or wood... I'd also suggest resting your heel on a book to raise it slightly... and bacon, eggs and coffee... well that's how I'm starting anyway :-)
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#1966072 - 09/29/12 05:31 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: pv88]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5131
This thread has prompted me to measure the distance on my V-Piano (- which I adjusted immediately after I´d bought and then assembled it on its stand to what I felt to be a comfortable distance for me, without comparing directly with that on an acoustic piano). It is 10.4 in. I´m short compared to many of you here, at 5 ft 8in.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#1966075 - 09/29/12 05:44 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: UK Paul UK]
bluebilly Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 433
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: xhappyrabbitx
Bluebilly is 6 -4 and handles 7 inches.... ( no smut intended) so I have hopes you'll adapt in time mate.... I'm off to have another session now... just out of interest, I play with no shoes on and maybe if you wear shoes you should try it... plus it's on carpet so the pedal is nearer the floor than if on tiles or wood... I'd also suggest resting your heel on a book to raise it slightly... and bacon, eggs and coffee... well that's how I'm starting anyway :-)

I've had my CN33 over two years now and I'm in "Change my piano" mood, that pedal distance will be something I will be checking on any DP, or Hybrid even, I will be auditioning.

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#1966157 - 09/29/12 10:39 AM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: pv88]
UK Paul UK Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 396
Loc: Berkshire, England
I guess it's really horses for courses... pv88 and I basically are the same height and after playing/practicing today for 3 hours it really is a non issue for me... I don't wear shoes and play the pedal with the ball of my foot with toes about half an inch from cabinet.. comfy for me. My other dp has 9.5 gap but either in fine.
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#1967754 - 10/02/12 12:36 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: pv88]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Update:

Have now made it known to Kawai directly that I was not particularly happy finding the pedal depth on the CA95 to be a mere 6 inches, when other grand pianos have a standard distance of around 10.5 inches, or so.

Also, just did receive a reply back from Tom Love, of Kawai:

"We're currently researching your claims with our R&D department and one of the top Kawai piano technicians in the world. We'll get back to you when we have some concrete information."

Kawai should definitely consider correcting this feature since Sean O'Shea's (of Kawai) description does not match up with acoustic piano standards when he says:

"... their cosmetic design is the most piano-like, ever ..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mQMDmckTMU

Starts at the 36 second mark in the video.

Will have to wait and see if they will decide to do anything about it with newer models in the future.

I have set my Roland V-Piano's triple pedal unit at the proper distance, or, 10.5 inches.

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#1967777 - 10/02/12 01:48 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: pv88]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3819
Loc: North Carolina
I see your point, pv.

I sit just fine at 19", so even the short depth of the pedals isn't a problem. But if you're at 20" or 21", you'd have a real problem.
Originally Posted By: pv88
@MacMacMac,
I have to sit relatively high, at 20 - 21 inches, to keep the arms / hands fairly level with the keyboard, and, it is difficult to find the right position with the foot / heel / legs when sitting at the CA95, without contorting something else.

This forces you to sit further back (to reach for the keys) as I tend to like to sit in closer, but then the pedals are no longer at the proper angle for your leg and foot.

It's a shame that Kawai couldn't fashion an acoustic-like distance with the pedals.

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#1967779 - 10/02/12 02:04 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: MacMacMac]
pv88 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 2630
Originally Posted By: MacMacMac
I see your point, pv.

I sit just fine at 19", so even the short depth of the pedals isn't a problem. But if you're at 20" or 21", you'd have a real problem.


@MacMacMac,

I sit only an inch higher than you do (at 20 inches) since I need to have arms / hands that are more or less level with the keyboard, so how does that affect the pedal depth situation?

I can play perfectly well at a bench height of 20 inches at my V-Piano, and, I have the pedals set back at 10 inches.

My concern is that the 6 inch depth isn't sufficient for how I need to place my foot with the angle of the ankle.

Do you see what I am saying?

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#1967782 - 10/02/12 02:13 PM Re: Kawai CA95 - Pedal distance not like an acoustic [Re: pv88]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3819
Loc: North Carolina
Yes, exactly.

I sit an inch or more lower than you, and my pedal is set back nearly 2" more. So I can sit with my legs extended, helped by the lower bench and deeper pedal.

You're forced to bend your knees more, both because of the higher bench and shallower pedal depth. And it's not working well. Is that right?

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