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#1969074 - 10/05/12 11:36 AM Re: Difference? [Re: Mike_Martin]
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 851
Loc: Lakewood, CA
Mike,
Do you know if the patches on the Casio Music Site are compatible with any of the new boards from Casio or are these strictly for boards that had the ZPI sound source?

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#1969133 - 10/05/12 02:13 PM Re: Difference? [Re: Kbeaumont]
Mike_Martin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/21/09
Posts: 386
Galaxy4t,
No those sounds are specific to those ZPI based models. The new line of PX models does not have the ability to edit presets. On the PX-350 you can create your own combinations (called Registrations) and store them, save them to USB and exchange with other users...etc.
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#1969246 - 10/05/12 08:23 PM Re: Difference? [Re: Kbeaumont]
BrokenChord Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/25/11
Posts: 288
Loc: Michigan
I've hooked up my keyboard to the CS-67 and have been practicing for a bit.

Im still getting use to the weight of the keys, I was using a Cheapo Casio board to practice on before and the keys weren't weighted. My fingers are getting a workout!

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#1969379 - 10/06/12 09:14 AM Re: Difference? [Re: Kbeaumont]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
After a lot of very positive statements about the PX-x50 series, I am asking how it compares to other brands. If I could compare the higher end of Casio Px-850 with the pianos Kawai CA95 and Roland HP505, which are a factor of 3 and 2, respectively, more expensive, I would do it. Unfortunately in the store yesterday, which is 140km trip, the x50 series was not available in the show room. The x30 series made already a good impression. The new one is reported to have an even improved action, so I think there are some good element to decide for it. I am not decided what is the best buy. CA95 as well as the HP505 would be also a suitable choice to me. If possible I would save the money and spend it later for an additional acoustic piano.

There are two concerns on this x50 series for the sound which are mentioned here in this forum about the lossy compression and in the pianoplayer forum on the initial decay of some note, which is reported to be sometimes too short. But I have no idea what happens on the other brands with respect to this problem. E.g. are Rolands supernatural and Kawai sample lossless ?


Edited by ap55 (10/06/12 10:23 AM)

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#1969422 - 10/06/12 11:56 AM Re: Difference? [Re: ap55]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3144
Originally Posted By: ap55
There are two concerns on this x50 series for the sound which are mentioned here in this forum about the lossy compression and in the pianoplayer forum on the initial decay of some note, which is reported to be sometimes too short. But I have no idea what happens on the other brands with respect to this problem. E.g. are Rolands supernatural and Kawai sample lossless ?

I wouldn't get too hung up on specsmanship. For the sake of argument, let's say that the Casio x50 uses lossless compression and the Kawai MP10 uses lossy compression, but the Kawai sounds better anyway. So then, what good is knowing the compression spec? You just have to see what sounds better to you. Sound quality is never going to reduce to a single spec (or, arguably, any specs at all), so even if one model has one particular improved spec relative to another, that really tells you nothing about which will sound better overall.

Since you ask about Roland SN in particular, I think it's worth pointing out that it's a whole different animal, and the compression question isn't really even applicable, as it is using modeling rather than straight sample playback. I guess in a sense, since a whole lot of sound is being algorithmically generated from a relatively small amount of sample data, you could say that the underlying sample is very lossy compared to the source... but the model used to "regenerate" the missing data is, by their argument, actually superior to what they would have gotten by using extensive samples in the first place. YMMV.

As for initial decay, listening to more samples as they appear can help, and that's an area where there is really no "spec" to look at, it's just ears (though I suppose someone could come up with a way to measure it). Though also, different people are more sensitive to different things. For example, I find quick initial decays to be bothersome, but I rarely notice looping in actual playing; other people's priorities may be different.

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#1969429 - 10/06/12 12:21 PM Re: Difference? [Re: ap55]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4324
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: ap55
There are two concerns on this x50 series for the sound which are mentioned here in this forum about the lossy compression and in the pianoplayer forum on the initial decay of some note, which is reported to be sometimes too short. But I have no idea what happens on the other brands with respect to this problem. E.g. are Rolands supernatural and Kawai sample lossless ?

I think the lossless thing is probably just adspeak gobbledygook.

Could you point us to the pianoplayer complaints?

I agree with anotherscott, unnatural decay (too quick, or two discontinuous rates in the same note) can be quite distracting, probably more so than looping and stretching. Though if the loop samples are real short you can get a kind of quick "quavering" sound in chords which I've unfortunately become rather sensitive to. Someone need to develop a DP vaccine.
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#1969439 - 10/06/12 12:54 PM Re: Difference? [Re: Kbeaumont]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
Originally Posted By: dewster
[quote=ap55]

Could you point us to the pianoplayer complaints?



Of course:

http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2433746/4

In order to answer for anotherscott's specsmenship comment. I agree, even if I didn't ask for this answer. I though it was clear - but probably not - that to get the piano under my nails is not as easy. In this case the first is to look into the forum to gather experience, even it is of technical nature it could indicate issues you should know before buying. In order to follow your suggestion and gave it a try I am sure testing it for one hour in the store could be not sufficient. After month you can detect properties on sound and behavior that you dislike. Even simply go into the store and test it out can be a cumbersome activity, if the store is not around the corner and you are not decided yet for one instrument. At this point my post is questioning the forum and preferable those that have one of the x50 pianos at home and better also have played one of the competitors (HP500, CA95). If I could get out with some of the experience gathered while exercising on the instrument this would rule out all the technical spec information and provide a better impression, even if subjective. As I said, it is not easy at all to have direct access to some pianos I could consider to buy.

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#1969468 - 10/06/12 02:10 PM Re: Difference? [Re: BrokenChord]
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 851
Loc: Lakewood, CA
Broken Chord

Can you comment as to the sustain of the notes on your PX-150. In your opinion does the sound decay quickly after hitting a note? The problem is usually very noticeable beginning at the middle C octave and above. What are your impressions about the action?

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#1969469 - 10/06/12 02:11 PM Re: Difference? [Re: ap55]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: ap55
After a lot of very positive statements about the PX-x50 series, I am asking how it compares to other brands. If I could compare the higher end of Casio Px-850 with the pianos Kawai CA95 and Roland HP505, which are a factor of 3 and 2, respectively, more expensive, I would do it. Unfortunately in the store yesterday, which is 140km trip, the x50 series was not available in the show room. The x30 series made already a good impression. The new one is reported to have an even improved action, so I think there are some good element to decide for it. I am not decided what is the best buy. CA95 as well as the HP505 would be also a suitable choice to me. If possible I would save the money and spend it later for an additional acoustic piano.

There are two concerns on this x50 series for the sound which are mentioned here in this forum about the lossy compression and in the pianoplayer forum on the initial decay of some note, which is reported to be sometimes too short. But I have no idea what happens on the other brands with respect to this problem. E.g. are Rolands supernatural and Kawai sample lossless ?


Casio's pianos have historically been compared with lower end pianos like Yamaha's P line. One reason for that is that they are similar price-wise, but they also compare in terms of quality. I haven't had my hands on a PX150, but I suspect like other Casios it's a fine value for the money and a nice improvement over the previous generation but not in the same league as the other pianos you mention, either in terms of action or sound. Both action and sound preferences are subjective, of course. If you like the Casio sound and action, then you win and get to save a lot of money.

I'm actually eager to try out a 150 because if the action really is "good enough" then you can hook it to a software piano and ignore the onboard sounds. Although Casio has been very good at including features that look great on paper (like multi-layer timbres in low end instruments) I haven't been pleased with their sounds subjectively.

As the other posters mentioned, the lossy compression thing is almost surely BS. I highly doubt any manufacturer has lossless samples in any meaningful sense. If they wanted to use a lot of storage space to maximum benefit they would instead use unlooped, unstretched samples with lossy compression. Having a half-second lossless sample repeating over and over instead of a long lossy sample would be a horrible trade. At the end of the day, these hardware pianos don't sound good enough that artifacts of lossy compression would noticeably degrade their sound.

The short decay we notice in most digital pianos is, in fact, a trick they use to hide the limitations of their sounds. I find it to be a serious limitation. Much more serious than loops, stretches, layers, sample compression, or any other corner the manufacturers may choose/need to cut. That's the number one reason I can now only tolerate software pianos.


Edited by gvfarns (10/06/12 02:32 PM)

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#1969475 - 10/06/12 02:17 PM Re: Difference? [Re: gvfarns]
voxpops Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 3017
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
The short decay we notice in most digital pianos is, in fact, a trick they use to hide the limitations of their sounds. I find it to be a serious limitation. Much more serious than loops, stretches, layers, sample compression, or any other corner the manufacturers may choose/need to cut.

I agree, and find it ultimately depressing that, in 2012, with the ready availability of fast, cheap storage solutions and fast, inexpensive processors, we are still having this discussion.
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#1969521 - 10/06/12 05:05 PM Re: Difference? [Re: Kbeaumont]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
IMHO it is often underestimated which actual piano has been used as a source for the samples and if you like the basic character of this particular piano sound. If not, then all the sample memory in the world , including other tricks like resonance simulations etc wont help. Another recording made of another piano may be more to your liking , even if it is less sophisticated in specs. As I said before, if you don't like the Casio grand in the first place , the new version with longer sample decay will still not help. Same goes for Kawai (uhpi to xl) and any other brands. A big plus for physically modeled pianos where the character of the sound isn't fixed in the sample set being used. A long introduction to state that lossless or lossy compression doesn't bother me; it's how it sounds in the end that determines wether I like or dislike a certain piano. I would never buy a DP on specs alone, e.g. Kronos grand is great on specs, but the sound demos don't convince me, despite the extreme long decays. It has all been said before and it's an open door , I know...J

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#1969547 - 10/06/12 06:28 PM Re: Difference? [Re: JFP]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: JFP
IMHO it is often underestimated which actual piano has been used as a source for the samples and if you like the basic character of this particular piano sound. If not, then all the sample memory in the world , including other tricks like resonance simulations etc wont help. Another recording made of another piano may be more to your liking , even if it is less sophisticated in specs.


Yes, this is the problem with Yamaha and Kawai digitals. They only sample their own pianos (at least for the main voice), which are fine but not top shelf in my view. Roland and Casio should not be constrained this way, on the other hand.

This is also why I don't like Ivory Italian Grand or Imperfect Samples Fazioli. At the end of the day, sophisticated an expensive as the software and original piano may be, I just don't like them.

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#1969548 - 10/06/12 06:30 PM Re: Difference? [Re: Kbeaumont]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8822
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
gvfarns, what do you mean by 'not top shelf'?

Cheers,
James
x
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#1969558 - 10/06/12 06:58 PM Re: Difference? [Re: Kbeaumont]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
Haha, not to make things too personal, of course, but it is my opinion that an EX or a CFX is not as desirable a piano for sampling as a D or a 290, and this is reflected in the relative popularity of these pianos in recording and among software pianos. Both the EX and CFX have a presence, but they are small. They are not most people's unconstrained preference for a general, main classical piano voice. One could certainly argue that years of hearing Steinways in just about every recording has altered our expectation of what a piano sounds like--actually a similar thing is happening with Yamaha and pop piano sounds. Regardless of the reason, I think Kawai and Yamaha digital pianos would benefit from using Steinways as their main piano voice as do software piano suites and acoustic-brand-neutral DP manufacturers. I guess if the day comes that the revenue from the acoustic side is small enough relative to the digital side so that the branding was less of a factor, this could happen. I'm not holding my breath, though.

Come to think of it, I'm not aware of Yamaha using Bosendorfer as a main piano voice (or even a secondary one) even though they own the brand. Go figure.

Of course, all the above mentioned pianos (and the Fazioli I referred to earlier) are top shelf in the sense that they are intended for concerts and are very expensive and well-made. That doesn't make them equally desirable for a digital piano voice in my opinion.

By the way, when I play acoustics I almost always play Kawai or Yamaha. I like them fine in real life, but to me they are consumer grade pianos, as opposed to what I referred to as "top shelf" above.


Edited by gvfarns (10/06/12 07:06 PM)

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#1969674 - 10/07/12 04:14 AM Re: Difference? [Re: Kbeaumont]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1336
Loc: The Netherlands
@gvfarns,

This is so much a personal preference that I find it hard to generalize such an issue; I for one am not a big Steinway fan. Not that they are bad of course, but I prefer the sound of some other brands. Steinways are a sort of status-quo in the concert world, which has the advantage that concert pianists know roughly what to expect at each theater , similar touch/ feel and sound, although there will always be slight differences. When you practice and perform on a Steinway it's easier, than when you have to switch from brand to brand and re-adjust. In a way like Windows is a standard. It's not bad and most people are used to it, but that doesn't mean everybody has to like and use it. I'm happy that there is a choice in piano's , both acoustic and digital . If all DP's would be based on a similar Steinway Grand , that would be killing, boring and leave out all people who are not particularly fond of the Steinway standardized sound character. Also we only have to talk about the sound character here because build quality and touch of the original AP are not taken in the equation for a DP. That's only importnat for comparing the AP version...

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#1969686 - 10/07/12 05:27 AM Re: Difference? [Re: Kbeaumont]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
@JFP

I agree! I am looking for a DP and I am focused to Roland but I am actually not fully convinced from their (like Steinway) sound. So I am happy that I have still a choice with Yamaha, Casio and Kawai different sound. Of course those who prefer Steinway like sound would have more alternative on the DP market if Yamaha and Kawai would adopted in this direction, but this option is less worth then to have the freedom to select the sound you prefer. What a world, if all humans, instruments, animals, etc. should adopt same properties ?

On the other side I can follow gvfarns in that way that it could be desirable to all of us to switch between the instrument, what would mean Roland adds Yamaha sound, etc, etc, sound and Yamaha, Kawai, Casio, adds Steinway sound. May be his thoughts are in this direction, if not I stick on JFPs position. Probably this will come for samples based DP and already entered with physical modeling the DP world.

Nevertheless I feel we go OT.

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#1969794 - 10/07/12 11:41 AM Re: Difference? [Re: ap55]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: ap55
On the other side I can follow gvfarns in that way that it could be desirable to all of us to switch between the instrument, what would mean Roland adds Yamaha sound, etc, etc, sound and Yamaha, Kawai, Casio, adds Steinway sound. May be his thoughts are in this direction, if not I stick on JFPs position.


Basically there are two problems with Yamaha and Kawai's situation in my opinion:

1. They don't provide choice. The comments above center on the desirability of having lots of different piano brand voices. Y and K typically use exclusively or almost exclusively their own pianos. The mellow piano, for example, may still sounds like a Kawai...just a mellow one. The fact that these two big manufacturers don't use Steinway isn't evidence that the restriction that they use only their own pianos is a good thing or provides the player more meaningful choice.

2. I also don't feel that Yamaha and Kawai are the two best choices for main piano voices for a general piano. This, of course is a matter of opinion, but I think it's a common opinion. If the majority of CD's and concert halls use Steinway, that should be the first piano in a digital as well. And then we should have other brands available in the other voices. That's the way, for example, Ivory is, and there's a reason for it. I wouldn't advocate for every voice to be a Steinway either, but I do think that would be preferable to every voice being a Kawai or every voice being a Yamaha.


Edited by gvfarns (10/07/12 11:45 AM)

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#1969864 - 10/07/12 02:34 PM Re: Difference? [Re: gvfarns]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4324
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Y and K typically use exclusively or almost exclusively their own pianos.

I've also felt this, that Yamaha and Kawai having their own AP divisions is something of a gilded cage for all concerned. The prestige aspect of the AP division overshadows and controls the DP division, to the extent to where they can't put anyone else's AP in there, and they don't want to talk about DP specs because that tends to pull people back from imagining there's some kind of magic in their 50MB sample. Toss into this mix their profound reluctance to create anything new that might even slightly internally compete with their very careful product tiering and you can see how we are at the point we're at now - with the real serious people calling it quits on turnkey and rolling their own solutions from existing parts. It's sad really, DPs could totally be kicking serious behind.
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#1969873 - 10/07/12 02:48 PM Re: Difference? [Re: galaxy4t]
BrokenChord Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/25/11
Posts: 288
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
Broken Chord

Can you comment as to the sustain of the notes on your PX-150. In your opinion does the sound decay quickly after hitting a note? The problem is usually very noticeable beginning at the middle C octave and above. What are your impressions about the action?


Hey! I need to play with the keyboard more to answer your question about the sustain of the notes (I haven't paid attention). I have been playing it for 3 days and I don't feel it is any different from a piano (in terms of sound), you also can hear the hammers when you play if you strike a note hard enough. Its cool!

As for the feel, It feels exactly like a Kawai CN33,IMO


Edited by BrokenChord (10/07/12 02:49 PM)

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#1969880 - 10/07/12 02:54 PM Re: Difference? [Re: gvfarns]
KLSinCT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/12
Posts: 148
Loc: Stonington, CT USA
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: ap55
On the other side I can follow gvfarns in that way that it could be desirable to all of us to switch between the instrument, what would mean Roland adds Yamaha sound, etc, etc, sound and Yamaha, Kawai, Casio, adds Steinway sound. May be his thoughts are in this direction, if not I stick on JFPs position.


Basically there are two problems with Yamaha and Kawai's situation in my opinion:

1. They don't provide choice. The comments above center on the desirability of having lots of different piano brand voices. Y and K typically use exclusively or almost exclusively their own pianos. The mellow piano, for example, may still sounds like a Kawai...just a mellow one. The fact that these two big manufacturers don't use Steinway isn't evidence that the restriction that they use only their own pianos is a good thing or provides the player more meaningful choice.

2. I also don't feel that Yamaha and Kawai are the two best choices for main piano voices for a general piano. This, of course is a matter of opinion, but I think it's a common opinion. If the majority of CD's and concert halls use Steinway, that should be the first piano in a digital as well. And then we should have other brands available in the other voices. That's the way, for example, Ivory is, and there's a reason for it. I wouldn't advocate for every voice to be a Steinway either, but I do think that would be preferable to every voice being a Kawai or every voice being a Yamaha.


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#1969885 - 10/07/12 02:56 PM Re: Difference? [Re: dewster]
KLSinCT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/07/12
Posts: 148
Loc: Stonington, CT USA
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Y and K typically use exclusively or almost exclusively their own pianos.

I've also felt this, that Yamaha and Kawai having their own AP divisions is something of a gilded cage for all concerned. The prestige aspect of the AP division overshadows and controls the DP division, to the extent to where they can't put anyone else's AP in there, and they don't want to talk about DP specs because that tends to pull people back from imagining there's some kind of magic in their 50MB sample. Toss into this mix their profound reluctance to create anything new that might even slightly internally compete with their very careful product tiering and you can see how we are at the point we're at now - with the real serious people calling it quits on turnkey and rolling their own solutions from existing parts. It's sad really, DPs could totally be kicking serious behind.


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#1969891 - 10/07/12 03:21 PM Re: Difference? [Re: BrokenChord]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
Originally Posted By: BrokenChord
Originally Posted By: galaxy4t
Broken Chord

Can you comment as to the sustain of the notes on your PX-150. In your opinion does the sound decay quickly after hitting a note? The problem is usually very noticeable beginning at the middle C octave and above. What are your impressions about the action?


Hey! I need to play with the keyboard more to answer your question about the sustain of the notes (I haven't paid attention). I have been playing it for 3 days and I don't feel it is any different from a piano (in terms of sound), you also can hear the hammers when you play if you strike a note hard enough. Its cool!

As for the feel, It feels exactly like a Kawai CN33,IMO


@Broken Cord. If you follow the link I provided above to the musicplayer forum there are different posters who notice this for the octave above the octave of the middle C and we have to be precise, its not the sustain until the end of the note, it is the initial decay short after hitting the key, which is too fast. For details the second post in the forum #2442499 - 10/01/12 09:06 P should be referred to exclude transmission errors.

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#1970159 - 10/08/12 04:02 AM Re: Difference? [Re: Kbeaumont]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2684
Loc: Atlanta, GA
It is wishful thinking for Yamaha or Kawai to feature samples from any piano but their own.

As for my own wishful thinking, someday concert pianos would be chosen purely on merit. In that world, Steinway would be well represented but they would more likely represent 10% - 20% of halls and recordings rather than the 90% their powerful business interests have built and protected. There have always been more elite concert grands than are given credit and today, I believe there are more than ever.
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#1970162 - 10/08/12 04:23 AM Re: Difference? [Re: Kbeaumont]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2381
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Interesting (OT) conversation going on here.

I like the reference to Yamaha and Kawai operating in a gilded cage in terms of what they can offer on their digitals. I agree to a point with that. They should (but won't) put aside their marketing-led self imposed restrictions and offer alternatives so there is a genuinely interesting palette of sounds for their DP users to choose from. In terms of AP sounds that is the greatest advantage that Nord has. The mellow piano on the Kawais is the same piano (concert grand or whatever) with the treble turned down. No doubt their processing is a bit more fancy than that but boil it down to gravy and that's what they are offering. That's not a choice. Yamaha is only slightly better and then only on a very limited range of their DPs (I'm thinking CPs that offer CF and S6 pianos).

Where I take issue is this idea that Steinway is intrinsically superior. It is the 800lb gorilla with the silver back and uses its power to create a closed shop amongst the classical performing community. And this generates expectations amongst listeners. But I don't think their pianos are superior. Good yes. One of the best yes. But only one of them. I think that the top of the range Yamahas (CF-IIIS and now CFX) and Kawai (EX) are right up there. I prefer the Yamaha sound personally, although it is evolving significantly with the X instruments, but these pianos are right up there. In terms of consistency and reliability they are probably quite superior to most top end European pianos and their expressive potential has been steadily improved and refined over the years to the point where they are absolutely competitive with the best Europeans. And on a very subjective level I think the Yamaha is the best looking concert grand - the sleekest anyway (irrelevant I know!).

Just my thoughts. Off topic though they may be!

Steve
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#1970207 - 10/08/12 08:11 AM Re: Difference? [Re: EssBrace]
bfb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/11
Posts: 537
Loc: Atlanta GA USA
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Interesting (OT) conversation going on here.

I like the reference to Yamaha and Kawai operating in a gilded cage in terms of what they can offer on their digitals. I agree to a point with that. They should (but won't) put aside their marketing-led self imposed restrictions and offer alternatives so there is a genuinely interesting palette of sounds for their DP users to choose from. In terms of AP sounds that is the greatest advantage that Nord has.
Steve


i would...suppose....that the idea floating around in the Yamaha and Kawai brain trust is that by using their own piano samples in well-constructed digital pianos they will hopefully get the owner very used to their distinctive sound and may intice them to eventually "move up" to a Yamaha or a Kawai acoustic instrument.

in one of these blogs someone mentioned that you'd think Yamaha would start incorporating well-sampled Bosendorfer's in their DP's since they now own the name. I wonder about that too, although they may feel people that buy DP's are more inclined to stay in the mass market for acoustics and they don't want to confuse their ears with the very high end Bos sound.
_________________________

Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250; Roland FP 5
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#1970216 - 10/08/12 08:49 AM Re: Difference? [Re: EssBrace]
anotherscott Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3144
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
(I'm thinking CPs that offer CF and S6 pianos).

They also have offered a sampled S700 now and then.

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#1970250 - 10/08/12 10:23 AM Re: Difference? [Re: bfb]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4324
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: bfb
in one of these blogs someone mentioned that you'd think Yamaha would start incorporating well-sampled Bosendorfer's in their DP's since they now own the name.

Even if they want to they can't - after shoehorning in a CF and maybe tamping in an S6, there's just no room left in the tiny platinum, jewel encrusted sample ROM all DP manufacturers are forced to use at gunpoint.
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THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#1970253 - 10/08/12 10:39 AM Re: Difference? [Re: Kbeaumont]
bennevis Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4739
I'm going for a 'private viewing' of Yamaha's new range of CX pianos this weekend at London's South Bank Centre - so far I've only played on their CFX grand from their new acoustic grand series, and been quite impressed. And the CFX has impressed some classical concert pianists too, including at least one 'Steinway Artist'. But it would be premature to think that Yamaha (or any other manufacturer) could topple Steinway from its stranglehold on the world's concert halls. Steinway has been at the game for far too long, and its 'Steinway Artist' program ensures that most pianists who value having decent pianos to play at concerts are only too happy to be offered the opportunity to be enrolled in it. (Read about what happens to pianists like Garrick Ohlsson who don't play the Steinway game in the Piano Forum).

My own preference is for Bösendorfer, but I admit its tone is very distinctive and most DP users won't prefer it to Steinway. Yamaha has a good following in the pop and jazz world because its bright sound cuts through percussion and brass easily, and many jazz pianists like its percussive quality.

But I suspect that if you ask concert pianists (and assure them that their answers are confidential), you'll find that many of them would, if given the choice, opt for a piano other than Steinway. But only a few have the clout to get what they prefer: Angela Hewitt these days only play on Fazioli, for instance.

However, DP users, if they've played on acoustic grands before, will probably only have experience of Yamaha, possibly Kawai, in addition to Steinway, and it just so happens that those are the commonest sounds they can get from DPs - just not all three in a DP (except for Nord samples). You have to choose......

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#1970326 - 10/08/12 01:53 PM Re: Difference? [Re: bennevis]
Aidan Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/23/08
Posts: 372
Loc: UK
Has it ever been established what acoustic piano(s) Roland actually samples? I seem to remember that one of the criticisms of their DPs is that the voices are actually sampled from several different instruments, resulting in a kind of "Frankenpiano".

As for having to choose, you can also get Steinway, Yamaha and Bosendorfer on the Kronos, only they call them German, Japanese and Austrian. And with the sample streaming offered in Kronos OS 2.0, it's possible to have even more variations.
_________________________
Yamaha CP40 | Hammond SK1-61 | Kurzweil PC361

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#1970331 - 10/08/12 02:02 PM Re: Difference? [Re: Aidan]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2381
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Aidan
Has it ever been established what acoustic piano(s) Roland actually samples?


It's Steinway (maybe a mix of more than one individual instrument on some voices). But they mess about with it perhaps more than others do and that gives rise to that slightly over-processed character that it has.
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