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This can be tiring, Jeff, but you've done well.

Some of this might be difficult to hear until you're more familiar with what it is that you're listening for so I'll fill this out for you here and you can try and find these figures in the other three movements. Did you see and go over the connections I posted for the other movements in the Clementi? This is much the same thing here. The four movements have a lot of unity.

Here's the Allegro, then. Do go over it with the score and the performance until you can see and hear all this. And take frequent breaks.

Tonic material: four two-measure phrases
phrase 1 M1 to 2 3/4; descending G major arpeggio, G-D-B-G, decorated with easily identifiable three note figure.
phrase 2 M2 3/4 to 4 3/4; sequence using 4-note figure, once from D and once from B
phrase 3 M4 3/4 to 6 3/4; the 4-note figure inverted and backwards plus 4-note descending figure
phrase 4 M6 3/4 to 8 1/2; using the 4-note figure backwards

Dominant material: two three-measure phrases
phrase 5 M8 1/2 to 11 1/2; rising arpeggio to balance phrase 1 leading to the 4-note figure backwards twice and inverted once
phrase 6 M11 1/2 to M14 1/4; repeats the rising arpeggio and compresses M10 into one triplet ending with V-I cadence.

Closing theme: one three-measure phrase using a descending sequence.

Development: four phrases each beginning with our clearly identified three note figure from phrase 1 at end of M16, M19, M21 and M23. The four phrases are 3 measures, 2 measures, 2 measures, 3 measures forming a nice archway centred on the very middle of the movement at M21 3/4.

phrase 7 notice the pedal D to balance the pedal G at the start of the movement. It keeps the mood calm at the start and allows the tension to rise when in starts to move in M20. The four triplets at M18 1/2 are M7 inverted and decorated.

phrase 8 is the closing theme inverted and the triplet replaced with a turn (a very common decoration in Haydn's music).

phrase 9 does the same but with a trill instead and a change of key.

phrase 10 is tricky. Take a little time with this and use your ear. It's phrase 4, M5-8 with a bit of variation. Notice how in the exposition it ushered in the second subject but here announces the recap'n. You might do a better job with your eyes if you work backwards but M25=M7.

Notice how the tension rises during these four phrases and is released with the recap'n.

The recap from M26 3/4 is pretty much bar for bar up to M42 when the closing theme is repeated once more.

That's so close, Jeff. You're definitely in the right area. Well done!

ETA: The alignment is easier using the bass in LH.

Here is what I am hearing with my "old ears". I'm going to reconstruct this freely into "ear player mode" and maybe if you play with it in that fashion you can mesh your old abilities with this new knowledge. Each person relates to music differently and old background is a strength rather than something to be set aside.

Mm. 1 - 2 (RH) is almost like a "riff" (if I understand that term properly) - some little melody pattern. We've got it again in mm 5 & 6. Then, if you were improvising that bit, I hear a variation of it in mm. 16 & 17. If you were doodling on the piano, maybe you'd come up with similar versions of it. Then when mm. 24 - 25, there's the same thing, but it's an octave below. Then mm 28 & 29, imagine you've got the same thing, but as composer you're saying "How the heck do I bring the melody up higher so that we can stay in the tonic? Hey, I'll climb up where I went down but use the same chord notes!" He's kept the same rhythm and the same chords. I recognize it as a version of the same thing.

I also use my knowledge that in this music phrases tended to be grouped in fours, and I can hear that rhythmically.
mm. 1 - 4:
dum deeda dum dum / dum deeda dum da / deedadeeda deedadeeda DUM (pause).
Then there's another "dum deeda..." with more deedadeeda's that move the music into another place.

mm. 16 on we've got the dum deeda dum dum, but it's in an new key and it's taking off. I know from theory that sonatina form will have a development, so I'm looking further.

My next dum deeda dum dum happens in m. 24, and it happens after a big long REST which signals "we're changing gears here, folks!" Mm. 24 - to 27 are totally identical to the beginning, except for being in a lower octave.

I may not know what to do with the rest of it, so now I'm looking for the second theme and write (????) for m. 28 - 30.

Visually mm. 31 - 32 have my attention. You've got a line of notes like in a scale climbing up followed by four quarter notes: rhythm: deedadeeda deedadeeda /dum dum dum dum -twice. We have a match for 31 - 34 with mm. 8 - 11. If you play 31 - 34 and then 8 - 11, can you HEAR the same melody in a different key? We can write (????) for mm. 35 - 38. You'll probably hear similarities between 35 - 38 and 12 - 15.

You might now put yourself into the shoes of the composer for our (????). For mm. 28 - 30, you want to reflect mm. 5 - 7. You can't do the same thing, though, because the first time you were modulating to a new key, and this time you want to stay in the same key. So how can you keep a similar rhythm and feel and land on the desired note and key at the end? He does so by keeping our "da deeda dum dum" before taking off.

The second (???) is much closer to its counterpart.

This kind of thing works for me personally because I am in part a by ear and creative person, and in part have used written music all my life, but didn't really know how to read for some decades. I did this kind of feeling and sensing things. I'm going by a hunch that some of what I used to do might work for a by ear person.

Btw, I did some composition exercises in theory, and by trying to produce music there, it helped me understand the music here.

Just in case it isn't clear, Jeff, this is the Clementi sonatina not the Haydn and there's a missing deedadeeda before the "DUM (pause)".

What, have you moved on to another piece? What piece is that?

I think that these go hand in hand because you need both. When learning about sonata-form these three terms are essential: exposition, development, recapitulation. What they represent are also important, (concept) and only then does content have meaning.

EXPOSITION: The composer sets out the themes. This is all done in the same section. Usually the second theme or subject will be in a new key: usually dominant key or relative major or minor.

DEVELOPMENT: The composer plays around with some of the material.

RECAPITULATION: The themes will be brought in again. The theme which had been modulated is back in the tonic key.

Yes, a Haydn sonata. Sept. 8, 1:55 pm post by Richard. Maybe some links in later posts, and discussion.

Ok, now I'm looking at the right piece.

My original response was to this.



As I read on, I saw that originally there was a confusion about what sections and the titles meant so the confusion might have had more to do with what you were calling which.

I'm thinking that even if I had the wrong piece, maybe some of my ideas still can be used for any piece and this piece in particular. I mean three things:
- listening, if you are an ear person, and even thinking of what you might do if you were improvising this yourself, in order to get into the composer's mindset
- looking at rhythms that are the same
- when you get to the second half of a theme especially, again as an ear player or budding composer, think of where the composer needs to go so you can anticipate some of what is going on.

I've looked at the First Allegro movement of the Haydn Divertimento now. I see the matching themes in the same places that Richard has set out. Now I'm looking at why I'm recognizing things, and what might be tricky.

** the end of m. 26 going into m. 27 is where the Recapitulation starts, with the first theme. Unlike the Clementi, there is no big pause with rests to alert us to a change of pace. Haydn flows from the development right into the Recapitulation. The concluding D in the bass creates the cadence that ends the Dev't, yet it also leads straight into the Recap. The thing that alerts us is the strong finality of the cadence, along with the mark telling us to emphasize the D. "The End". Also the visual appearance of the notes that follow; the same rhythm: even exactly the same notes.

Once you know where Theme 1 starts at the end of m. 26, I think it's easy to match it to the original. A couple of times something in the bass might be in a different octave, but it's the same.

I was first fooled in thinking that Theme 2 starts in m. 34 because it looks and sounds similar. But it actually starts at the end of m. 37. The original has a A7 chord, with the 7 in the melody repeat, and this is the start of the key of D major. M. 37 has has a D7 which is the V7 of G major; the tonic key which we want to have.

If I put myself in the shoes of the composer, I'm thinking at m. 34 where theme 1 ends, "How am I going to switch back into the key of G? so by creating a section of music that has the same shape as theme 2, and with those chord progressions, I can create a bridge back to G major, but do so almost seamlessly. Master craftsmen know how to hide their tricks.

Once I know that Theme 2 starts at the end of m. 38 and is in a new key, it is relatively easy to match it to the original Theme 2. Again putting myself into the composer's shoes, I'd want it to end in G, but add a bit of a flourish. It stays identical up to the first beat of m. 40 and then he adds a bit of a tail to it, extending the conclusion making it prettier and more final. That kind of extension is called "coda" which means "tail".

Thanks everyone for all the great information. I still have more thinking and listening to do on this. But went back and read again (several times) and with particular focus on the trouble spot for me, which was m17 through m26.



So, if I understand correctly this section (m16 3/4 - m26 1/2) restates themes 1,2,3,4. Plus, when restating theme 1, he borrows some tricks from theme 4 for triplets in m18 1/2. Ever slick how, as you say, this forms archway centered on m21 1/2 and in middle of movement.

Not sure yet how to relate all this in terms of how it sounds, but will work on that next so as to try and relate this better in next movements.

You should see my score ... I think I'll need to print anew.

Feeling good, and having better understanding of new things to watch for now.

Not exactly. M16-26 is the development but it isn't just restating themes. You might want to get a cup of tea, this could be long. (Here I go again!)

The exposition has at least two things in it; material in the tonic key and material in a contrasting key, usually the dominant or the relative major of a minor key tonic. There might also be an introduction to set the scene, like a prologue before the arrival of the main protagonists.

The material in the in tonic may be presented as one theme (e.g. Romeo) or more themes (e.g. the Montagues) made up from figures or motifs that I call germs, seeds, elements, etc.

There may also be a bridge passage where the composer moves gracefully from one key to the other or it may be a more sudden transition into the second subject material.

The material in the contrasting key may also be contrasting material, as it often is with Mozart and Beethoven, or more of a continuation, variation or development as it more often is with Haydn. Again it may be one theme (e.g. Juliet) or a group of themes (e.g. the Capulets). In a piece as short as this it would be discomfitting to have too much contrast; in a bigger piece it would need more to avoid monotony.

There is frequently, as in this divertimento, also a closing theme after the V-I cadence in the dominant. This may be to tell us that all the principal players have been introduced and the story is about to begin, or it may be to introduce minor characters such as Prince Escales or Friar Lawrence (continuing the R & J theme) or to set out the conflict between the warring families.

The second half begins with the development section. Here the composer tells the story by taking his themes and ideas and developing them. As long as he uses the germs, seeds and elements from the exposition as the basis for his wizardry the piece will have unity. He can also take his raw material from the introduction, bridge passage, and closing theme and he can add new material. This is where there will be changing keys, drama, conflict, plots and sub-plots and where most of our interest will be.

The recapitulation is a restatement of the initial ideas, not always as they were at the start but as they now are after the drama of the development section. But we want the Hollywood ending. We want the conflict to be over and the story to have a happy outcome. In the recapitulation the protagonsists all sing in the same key. We are satisfied.

There may or may not be an epilogue where all the loose ends are tied up, the principal characters may be gone but we are told the families will henceforth live in peace and they all live happily ever after.
________________________

Once you've got the hang of this and have started seeing the patterns and connexions there aren't right and wrong answers. It's just how YOU see it. It's not like an archaeologist finding a bone and knowing what part of what extinct animal it is. There is a basic structure but much of it, especially the development, is more like cloud watching.

Keystring sees M37 as not being the true second theme. I see it as being ON the dominant rather than IN it, so for me it IS the second subject. In the Clementi I'm still undecided about M8 being bridge passage or second subject. It is what it is; it doesn't change because we see it differently, WE change because we see it differently.

It would be naïve to suggest that the composer wasn't aware of the connection between the various parts but at the end of the day he may simply have hit upon some phrases that sound good together without seeing the connexions. It doesn't matter whether he does it consciously or subconsciously as long as the result works. How we see the fragments is how we understand the piece. We hear a piece of music and think, "wow, that sounds good" but some of us want to know why. That's what analysis is. It's injecting connexions into the music that the composer may or may not have been aware of. The more we see, the better we understand and the more we can enjoy and the better our own compositions become.

I can enjoy Beethoven's fifth just listening to it but I revel in it knowing how it's put together. Liszt's B minor sonata was a mystery to me how anybody could enjoy listening to it. Until I analysed it. And now, for me, it's one of the greatest pieces of piano music ever written. I can't listen to the entrance of the fourth theme without shedding a tear. That's why I do this.

Yes, I was just about to say I am looking at this again and also listening. Realize 16 through 26 are development and not restating anything.

Let me re-ponder the notes here, plus this new one and digest a bit more.

Still sinking in, but getting clearer.

Question: should I expect to see these (ALL) similar elements, themes, phrases etc. and within exposition, development, recapitulation, in each movement?



I hope you are not going to tell me that this one is easy to play.

I'm happy to move on and see if this begins to sink in with further application. Shall we look at Menuet now?

I would expect each movement to be based on at least one idea from the first movement.

Did you look yet at the things I pointed out in the Clementi? That will give you an idea of what to look for.

What ties these movements together? What creates the unity?

Do they belong together?

There may be nothing you can see or hear but the composer didn't just knock out a minuet and tag it on, he composed it to go with the opening movement. Maybe just one idea, maybe two, maybe more.

The B minor sonata is a bit harder than this one. I'd leave it a few weeks.

Yes, I was just getting on that.



OK, prep yourself now for a flawless interpretation of Menuet forthcoming ...

OK, I've had my coffee now, but perhaps need another.

Menuet
Finding this tough, but perhaps over thinking it.

I believe M1 is coming from 1st half of m11 in 1st movement, thus theme 5 and M2-M3 from theme 6. Further M4-M6 from closing theme.

OK, scratch the flawless part. This one is shorter, but perhaps may take longer.

Don't try to find something in every bar, Jeff.

For the Menuet look at M2 & M5. That looks distinctive. Could that have come from the Allegro? Does it occur anywhere else in the Menuet, or in the Andante, or in the Finale?

Compare M3&4 with Allegro M5&6. Match? Close? Way out and just new material?

Can you see where 6 might have come from or is it unrelated? Don't spend all evening on it.

Thought I might be over going it

For the Menuet look at M2 & M5. That looks distinctive. Could that have come from the Allegro? Does it occur anywhere else in the Menuet, or in the Andante, or in the Finale?

M2 is used again in Menuet, in fact M1-M3 are used it M9-M11. Do not see the used anywhere else.

Compare M3&4 with Allegro M5&6. Match? Close? Way out and just new material?

Way out, perhaps new material.

Can you see where 6 might have come from or is it unrelated?

I think related and coming from Allegro m13.

Don't spend all evening on it.

OK, thanks. Just the morning shot so far, but starting to calm down now.

Sorry, Jeff. I forgot the time difference!


Allegro:
Last note of M2 and first four notes of M3 = reversal.
M6 = transposed upwards.
M7 = inversion.
M10 (twice) = inversion.
M11 = reversal.
M15=inversion.
M18 = first note of each triplet.
Recap'n same as exposition.

Menuet
M2, M5 = itself
M6 first note of each triplet = expansion and inversion
M10, M13, M14

Andante
M5 & M6 = reversal
M7 (the triplets)= diminution, reversal and inversion
M8&9 = twice, overlapped, reversed
M9(last five notes) = reversal.

Allegro (Finale)
M5 (last note and lower notes of M6)

Rising arpeggio at start, cf. falling arpeggio at start of allegro

Menuet M3&4, Allegro M5&6: Listen!

Can you see/hear these?

M2 is important measure and has variances throughout all movements. Obviously I did not catch this, but see the similarities (not sure hearing them all) in the corresponding measures you have pointed out.

Can you please explain ...

"Rising arpeggio at start, cf. falling arpeggio at start of allegro"

I'm not seeing or finding this the way I'm reading.

Sorry for lame response. I went over this so much today ... then had to take a break. Wish I could tell you I am hearing everything loud and clear, but not so much.

Recall my earlier post breaking down the allegro:

This arpeggio is so much easier to hear than it is to see because the principal notes come on the beat but visually they're surrounded by the dotted quaver/semiqvr rhythm. If I might borrow keystring's technical notation here I hear: da-DE-DUM, da-de-DUM, da-de-DUM contracted to ti-dum, dum, dum.

In the menuet I hear the first three notes duplicating this (I can hear the bass note as part of the phrase easier than I can see it), it's an octave drop without the inbetween note, just the slow ti-dum, dum. The M2 figure is the allegro's M3&4 figure (again incorporating the bass and easier to hear than see). M3&4 are the allegro's M6&7, M5 is M2 again but instead of anouncing the previous phrase now leads into the allegro's closing theme. It's easier to hear the variation than to see it on the page.

So the first half of the minuet is a gentle variation in 3/4 time of the allegro's exposition without the second theme. The second half starts with an inversion of the first half, M13 = M5 and the coda restore G major. Notice the menuet is in binary form:
||: D - G :|||: Am - G :||

The Andante begins with a slower drawn out variation of the descending arpeggio, using a full two bars, the second two bars are the allegro's M7 again and another variation of the closing theme. The second half is the menuet with opening octave inverted and the 4-note figure reversed. We finish with another variation of the closing theme but note the phrase from M6 3/4 is a new figure, D-G-E-D repeated with variation - play this. You might hear it again. It's in binary form again with the same keys.

Onto the Allegro, and by this time I'm subconsciously expecting to start with another falling arpeggio, bit I'm presented with this upbeat rising one! How delightful! The second figure sounds familiar! Drop the C to a G and play it. You might recognise it. The M6 figure is the menuet's M2 with a quick recap of our closing theme again.

All four movements have such unity, such wholeness, they just BELONG together.


You're working like a Trojan, Jeff, and having to go it alone. I can whizz though this stuff quite quickly as I do it for every piece I learn and do a quick sketch of all the pieces I might learn in the future. I do a lot of rock and symphonic stuff, too. I also write my own material and this helps.

If you reduce the amout of time you spend each day on this you can put more effort into what you do and internalise the music more. That will make it easier to memorise and recognise the figures and themes and their variations and you'll hear them much better than when you see them. At the moment you've probably got a whole catalogue of figures from the Clementi still floating around with those of the Haydn and can't see one from t'other.

You might want to take a couple of days off, refresh your head and let the others catch up a bit. There seems to be very few participants for the amount of views the threads are getting and I doubt they're just enjoying the prose or the banter so the others may be trying to keep up with you and failing.