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#1967960 - 10/02/12 09:27 PM Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible?
Piquelol Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/02/12
Posts: 2
Hey guys, long time lurker here. I have an audition of sorts in March 2013 to get into "advanced" performance for the next academic year. The audition is around 10-15 minutes long, and there's no set guidelines on what to play. So my question(s) is this:

-Is it possible to get the Liszt ballade 2 up to performance standard in 5 months from scratch(list of stuff I'm playing below to show where I'm at technically...)? Its one of my favorite pieces and I've always wanted to play it.

or....

-Would it make a better impression if I were to play a variety of shorter stuff in the audition instead of the ballade taking up my whole audition?

I'm listing some of the stuff I've played

-Mozart C minor fantasia

-Beethoven Pathetique

-Beethoven Op 90.

-Beethoven Op 2 No 1

-Bach Italian Concerto

-Liszt Liebestraume 3

-Rachmaninoff Op 23 no 5

(For some reason I just can't think of any more stuff I've played, hope this will be enough to gauge my level)

Ah, working on:

-Beethoven Tempest (I find this quite easy IMO)

-Liszt Un sospiro

-Mozart k310

Thanks for your time smile


Edited by Piquelol (10/02/12 09:33 PM)
Edit Reason: Listed more stuff I played

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#1967964 - 10/02/12 09:34 PM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: Piquelol]
trigalg693 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 523
Hard to say from just a list but it might be possible if you worked really hard on it.

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#1967974 - 10/02/12 09:53 PM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: trigalg693]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: trigalg693
Hard to say from just a list but it might be possible if you worked really hard on it.

Yes.

Piq: I think the Liszt Ballade is a bigger hill than any of those pieces you mentioned, so it's iffy. I think it would be advisable at least to have a fall-back plan, in case you see that the Ballade isn't coming like it should. But we can't rule out that the Ballade would be OK. Since the piece seems to be grabbing you right now, I'd say you can at least start going with it and see how it goes -- but if you don't have it pretty well in hand a couple of months in advance, go to plan B.

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#1967999 - 10/02/12 10:33 PM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: Piquelol]
pianoloverus Offline
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Since I assume you haven't already committed to some piece for the audition(like debrucey already having announced a recital program), I would just review/prepare some of your already learned pieces to a level suitable for the audition and then spend the rest of your time working on the Ballade. If this means that after learning your backup pieces you'd have to work only on the Ballade for the rest of the 5 months, that might not be a great idea but it would be up to you and your teacher.

Another possibility would be to find another piece that's shorter and easier than the Ballade but appeals to you almost as much and combine that new piece with one of your previously learned pieces. The only one I can think of offhand that reminds me a little of the Ballade is this one, which is certainly difficult but maybe not as hard as the Ballade.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6q2uPUei3Y

Since we don't know how many hours a day you can practice, it's hard to judge what you could learn in 5 months even if we were completely knowledgeable about your current skill level.


Edited by pianoloverus (10/02/12 10:49 PM)

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#1968053 - 10/03/12 12:11 AM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: pianoloverus]
Derulux Offline
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Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 5067
Loc: Philadelphia
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Since we don't know how many hours a day you can practice, it's hard to judge what you could learn in 5 months even if we were completely knowledgeable about your current skill level.

Especially not knowing how long it took to learn the pieces on the list, or how well you learned them..
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#1968058 - 10/03/12 12:21 AM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: Derulux]
BruceD Offline
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Registered: 05/26/01
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Originally Posted By: Derulux
[...]Especially not knowing how long it took to learn the pieces on the list, or how well you learned them..


Those are the two most important criteria, both unknowns, so it means that we can't answer the original question.

Regards,
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#1968062 - 10/03/12 12:36 AM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: BruceD]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: Derulux
[...]Especially not knowing how long it took to learn the pieces on the list, or how well you learned them..
Those are the two most important criteria, both unknowns, so it means that we can't answer the original question.

....although the fact (I think it's a fact!) that the Liszt piece is more demanding than any of those is something to go on, for part of the answer. That's what I tried to do.

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#1968068 - 10/03/12 01:05 AM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: Piquelol]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Yes, BUT...


Mozart 310 + Un Sospiro would make a great audition.

99.9% of the people who think Tempest is easy aren't playing it well. smile
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#1968070 - 10/03/12 01:11 AM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: Kreisler]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
....99.9% of the people who think Tempest is easy aren't playing it well. smile

99.9% of people who think anything is "easy" aren't playing it well. ha

I don't think many people who "play really well" tend to use "easy" to describe any piece of music.

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#1968129 - 10/03/12 08:06 AM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: Piquelol]
pianoloverus Offline
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Pollini told Jeffrey Swann that he thought the Chopin E flat Prelude was easy.

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#1968145 - 10/03/12 08:56 AM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: Kreisler]
Otis S Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/25/08
Posts: 204
Originally Posted By: Kreisler

99.9% of the people who think Tempest is easy aren't playing it well. smile

+1! To play Beethoven's op. 31 no 2 piano sonata (or just about any of the major Beethoven piano sonatas) really well is difficult.

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#1968217 - 10/03/12 12:31 PM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: Piquelol]
jeffreyjones Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2230
Loc: San Jose, CA
The main technical difficulties in the Ballade are like this:

- Rapid broken octaves (similar to first movement of Pathetique, but both hands)
- Rapid LH chromatic scales
- Extensive hand-crossing
- Interlocking octave passages
- Sweeping upward scale passages near the end

If you can handle all of that, you can play this Ballade.

In general, though, it is usually better to play 2-3 contrasting pieces. A Bach P&F, Beethoven sonata movement and Chopin etude would be a standard way to approach it, substituting a more modern piece if you are especially good at that period.


Edited by jeffreyjones (10/03/12 12:34 PM)

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#1968231 - 10/03/12 01:14 PM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: jeffreyjones]
BruceD Offline
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Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17672
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
[...]In general, though, it is usually better to play 2-3 contrasting pieces. A Bach P&F, Beethoven sonata movement and Chopin etude would be a standard way to approach it, substituting a more modern piece if you are especially good at that period.


I would think that this would be the better way to go, unless the audition requirements have some specifics about what you are to play. Otherwise, it seems you are planning to put all your eggs in one (perhaps) flimsy basket.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190 in satin ebony
Writing from Paris until 15 May, 2014

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#1968247 - 10/03/12 01:53 PM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: BruceD]
pianoloverus Offline
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Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
[...]In general, though, it is usually better to play 2-3 contrasting pieces. A Bach P&F, Beethoven sonata movement and Chopin etude would be a standard way to approach it, substituting a more modern piece if you are especially good at that period.


I would think that this would be the better way to go, unless the audition requirements have some specifics about what you are to play. Otherwise, it seems you are planning to put all your eggs in one (perhaps) flimsy basket.

Regards,
Agree with Jeffrey and Bruce. This consideration may be more important than whether or not you can prepare the piece in time.

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#1968315 - 10/03/12 04:55 PM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: Piquelol]
Piquelol Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/02/12
Posts: 2
Thanks for all the replies guys laugh

From the comments I think I won't learn the Ballade, Kreisler's suggestion of K310 + Un sospiro seems quite good, will probably go with that.

I should clarify my comment with the Tempest being easy. Obviously its not "easy" but I thought it would be on a different level than the Pathetique or op.90. When I first learned the Pathetique it was quite difficult for me, but learning the Tempest hasn't given me that type of challenge, hence why I think its "easy". Shrug.

Also, was wondering why does everyone do Chopin etudes at these type of auditions? Are they more "impressive"...?

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#1968330 - 10/03/12 05:14 PM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: Piquelol]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5918
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Piquelol

Also, was wondering why does everyone do Chopin etudes at these type of auditions? Are they more "impressive"...?


They're not just impressive, they're short. Plus they have a narrow focus. Unless you're doing the whole set, you can play to your strengths.
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Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

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#1968413 - 10/03/12 08:56 PM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: Piquelol]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2055
Loc: Canada
No. Technically, your repertoire doesn't touch at all upon the technical demands of the Liszt ballade, and the sort of musical expression in the Ballade is something which isn't present in any of your current repertoire. Given the time constraints, it's not certain that you'll be able to put together a convincing performance of this (somewhat flawed) masterpiece.
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#1968507 - 10/04/12 01:37 AM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: Piquelol]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8696
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
^ Kuanpiano, I agree with your assessment of the technical difficulties, but how in your opinion is the ballade 'somewhat flawed'?

I have heard many flawed performances (including Horowitz IMO), though I do not feel the composition itself is flawed. (Arrau's magisterial recording convinced me that any perceived faults were not with Liszt.)
_________________________
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#1968517 - 10/04/12 01:54 AM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: Piquelol]
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 565
Agree with Jason. To me, this is a romantic era piano work of the highest order. I think it's one of Liszt's most perfect compositions. None of it is less inspired than any other part, it's very tightly, masterfully constructed, and simply contains much of what makes Liszt great - but most performances i've heard don't do it justice (IMO).


Edited by pianojosh23 (10/04/12 02:09 AM)

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#1968571 - 10/04/12 08:12 AM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: Piquelol]
Ian_G Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/07/10
Posts: 164
Loc: Germany
Reminds me of a charming Amy Fay anecdote:

...I wasn't really ready to play to him, but I took his second Ballade with me, and thought I'd ask him some questions about some hard places in it. He insisted upon my playing it. When we came in he looked indisposed and nervous, and there happened to be a good many artists there. We always lay our notes on the table, and he takes them, looks them over, and calls out what he'll have played. He remarked this piece and called out "_Wer spielt diese grosse maechtige Ballade von mir?_ (Who plays this great and mighty ballad of mine?)" I felt as if he had asked "Who killed Cock Robin?" and as if I were the one who had done it, only I did not feel like "owning up" to it quite so glibly as the sparrow had, for Liszt seemed to be in very bad humour, and had roughed the one who had played before me. I finally mustered up my courage and said "_Ich_," but told him I did not know it perfectly yet. He said, "No matter; play it." So I sat down, expecting he would take my head off, but, strange to say, he seemed to be delighted with my playing, and said that I had "quite touched him." Think of that from Liszt, and when I was playing his own composition! When I went out he accompanied me to the door, took my hand in both of his and said, "To-day you've covered yourself with glory!" I told him I had only _begun_ it, and I hoped he would let me play it again when I knew it better. "What," said he, "I must pay you a still greater compliment, must I?" "Of course," said I. "_Il faut vouz gater?_" "Oui," said I. He laughed.

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#1968597 - 10/04/12 09:37 AM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: pianojosh23]
pianoloverus Offline
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Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: pianojosh23
Agree with Jason. To me, this is a romantic era piano work of the highest order. I think it's one of Liszt's most perfect compositions. None of it is less inspired than any other part, it's very tightly, masterfully constructed, and simply contains much of what makes Liszt great - but most performances i've heard don't do it justice (IMO).
You think you know more about playing this piece than most of the great pianists who have played it or have you only heard performances by really poor pianists?


Edited by pianoloverus (10/04/12 09:43 AM)

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#1968759 - 10/04/12 04:05 PM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: pianoloverus]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5918
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: pianojosh23
Agree with Jason. To me, this is a romantic era piano work of the highest order. I think it's one of Liszt's most perfect compositions. None of it is less inspired than any other part, it's very tightly, masterfully constructed, and simply contains much of what makes Liszt great - but most performances i've heard don't do it justice (IMO).
You think you know more about playing this piece than most of the great pianists who have played it or have you only heard performances by really poor pianists?


Now that's not even good enough for you?
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#1968843 - 10/04/12 07:18 PM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: Damon]
pianoloverus Offline
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Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: pianojosh23
Agree with Jason. To me, this is a romantic era piano work of the highest order. I think it's one of Liszt's most perfect compositions. None of it is less inspired than any other part, it's very tightly, masterfully constructed, and simply contains much of what makes Liszt great - but most performances i've heard don't do it justice (IMO).
You think you know more about playing this piece than most of the great pianists who have played it or have you only heard performances by really poor pianists?
Now that's not even good enough for you?
That would depend on his answer to my question.

If he's really heard many great pianists' recordings of this piece but feels they don't do it justice, he's in effect saying he understands more about how this piece should be played than many/most of the greatest pianists in history. That's far more extreme than saying he doesn't like one or two great pianists' playing of this piece. I think saying that most of the great pianists who have recorded some major work were inadequate seems wrong for almost anyone but especially a teenager. I think if even a world class pianist made such a statement, they'd be criticized.


Edited by pianoloverus (10/04/12 07:27 PM)

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#1968871 - 10/04/12 08:39 PM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: pianoloverus]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5918
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

If he's really heard many great pianists' recordings of this piece but feels they don't do it justice, he's in effect saying he understands more about how this piece should be played than many/most of the greatest pianists in history.


That is an erroneous conclusion to infer from his statement. That's a fact, IMO.
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Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

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#1968877 - 10/04/12 08:54 PM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: Damon]
pianoloverus Offline
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Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19099
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

If he's really heard many great pianists' recordings of this piece but feels they don't do it justice, he's in effect saying he understands more about how this piece should be played than many/most of the greatest pianists in history.


That is an erroneous conclusion to infer from his statement. That's a fact, IMO.
So the great pianists understand as much as he does but chose not to use this understanding and to play it differently from what this understanding would dictate?


Edited by pianoloverus (10/04/12 08:56 PM)

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#1968882 - 10/04/12 09:18 PM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: pianoloverus]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5918
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus

If he's really heard many great pianists' recordings of this piece but feels they don't do it justice, he's in effect saying he understands more about how this piece should be played than many/most of the greatest pianists in history.


That is an erroneous conclusion to infer from his statement. That's a fact, IMO.
So the great pianists understand as much as he does but chose not to use this understanding and to play it differently from what this understanding would dictate?


No. He said "didn't do it justice, IMO". If I were to paraphrase that I could legitimately write "didn't play it to my liking" I don't think the word "understanding" has anything to do with what Josh said.
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#1969312 - 10/06/12 01:38 AM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: Piquelol]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
6 October 2012
Facile Liszt is at the bottom of my barrel ... and avoid him like the plague ... so anything suggested will have been guided by a disenchanted ear ... but why break one’s fingers on Ballade 2 (which opens with a chromatic romp for the LH) ... when there are far more enchanting works by other composers to brighten the day.

Beethoven’s Pathetique is the obvious lodestar which every pianist should get under their belt in building up a grand repertoire.

I’ll go with Kreisler’s Mozart 310 and Un Sospiro
(A Sigh) ... but Beethoven’s Tempest Sonata would be my bet ... for one of the most aesthetic (beautiful) architectural structures ever.

Test an opening gallop through the Liszt Ballade 2 ...
and see whether your dog howls ... a sure sign of dross.

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#1969313 - 10/06/12 01:51 AM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: btb]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8696
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: btb
a sure sign of dross.

... to consume and thy gold to refine?
_________________________
Jason

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#1969319 - 10/06/12 02:20 AM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: btb]
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 565
Originally Posted By: btb

when there are far more enchanting works by other composers to brighten the day.


That's only your opinion.

Originally Posted By: btb
a sure sign of dross.


The only dross, the only facile thing here, is your post. Calling Liszt these things now only speaks to close-mindedness, ignorance, and prejudice.


Edited by pianojosh23 (10/06/12 02:38 AM)

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#1969322 - 10/06/12 02:33 AM Re: Liszt Ballade 2 from scratch in 5 months - feasible? [Re: pianoloverus]
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 565
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: pianojosh23
Agree with Jason. To me, this is a romantic era piano work of the highest order. I think it's one of Liszt's most perfect compositions. None of it is less inspired than any other part, it's very tightly, masterfully constructed, and simply contains much of what makes Liszt great - but most performances i've heard don't do it justice (IMO).
You think you know more about playing this piece than most of the great pianists who have played it or have you only heard performances by really poor pianists?


Pretty much what Damon said, although my opinion does seem to be a pretty common one. It is a difficult work to bring off - even for professional pianists.

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