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#1968252 - 10/03/12 02:04 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: ap55]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2634
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: ap55
Nevertheless I understand that here in the forum it is agreed that PHAIII and S are different type of actions
No, this is not my larger point.

Ivory Feel-S is a PHA III action. Ivory Feel-G is not. There is simply more than one configuration for the PHA III action. Not so obvious is how they differ.
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#1968253 - 10/03/12 02:07 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
jhm Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 29
Loc: Sweden
It's on page 30 in the catalogue. smile

http://www.rolandmusik.de/downloads/prospekte/Digital_Pianos_mit_Stil.pdf

Originally Posted By: toddy
....another interesting point is that the photo of Ivory Feel G that jhm posted:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/ivorya.jpg/

...seems remarkably similar to the photos of PHA III with escapement:

http://timtopham.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/pha3.jpg

There are several pictures of PHAIII (and PHA II) which are all pretty similar or the very same as this sample here from Tim Topham's site.
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Roland F-120 DP, AKG K240 MkII HP

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#1968317 - 10/03/12 04:59 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
@PianoWorksATL:

looks that you are right. When I read this "http://www.rolandmusik.de/downloads/prospekte/Digital_Pianos_mit_Stil.pdf " and the technical detail description of the german website for some of the Pianos, it looks that there is a

PHA III at high level pianos
PHA III Ivory S on medium level pianos
and a Ivory G on the cheaper pianos

The G is not refered as to a PHA III, nevertheless from somewhere I've got this impressison, may be from the description that G is optimized for light weight and the fact that PHA stands for piano hammer action and the III for 3 sensors (I hope thats true).

For jhm's answer "it's on page 30 in the catalogue": This page doesn't indicate the G and even the S as a PHAIII action. The S is refered to a PHAIII in some German Website description, e.g. http://www.rolandmusik.de/produkte/FP-7F/index.php.

Regards

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#1968326 - 10/03/12 05:10 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
one more remark to this discussion: As long we do not know what are the mechanical differences for the different actions we are in danger to discuss about naming conventions. The only practical sense is to differentiate from experience based on exercises with the different actions. This has been reported to some extend already, but it seems that the interaction between acoustical instrument and mechanical action behavior puts in addition a factor that make the comparison not very unique. So I would appreciate some mechanical details on the differences from Roland to see what was the design target for the different actions and what is its mechanical compilation.

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#1968331 - 10/03/12 05:16 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: ap55]
jhm Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 29
Loc: Sweden
I'm not quite following you. No one so far, has stated that the Ivory Feel-G should be equal to PHA III. What is discussed however, is that Ivory Feel-G, Ivory Feel-S and PHA III all have three sensors, which is referred to as the "Tri-Sensor Technology" in the german prospect.

Originally Posted By: ap55
@PianoWorksATL:

looks that you are right. When I read this "http://www.rolandmusik.de/downloads/prospekte/Digital_Pianos_mit_Stil.pdf " and the technical detail description of the german website for some of the Pianos, it looks that there is a

PHA III at high level pianos
PHA III Ivory S on medium level pianos
and a Ivory G on the cheaper pianos

The G is not refered as to a PHA III, nevertheless from somewhere I've got this impressison, may be from the description that G is optimized for light weight and the fact that PHA stands for piano hammer action and the III for 3 sensors (I hope thats true).

For jhm's answer "it's on page 30 in the catalogue": This page doesn't indicate the G and even the S as a PHAIII action. The S is refered to a PHAIII in some German Website description, e.g. http://www.rolandmusik.de/produkte/FP-7F/index.php.

Regards



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#1968337 - 10/03/12 05:23 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1320
Loc: Portugal
It seems to me that neither 'PHA', which means 'progressive hammer action' or 'III' which refers to the three sensors, is any guarantee of quality. These are after all just basic descriptions of the design of the keyboard. And it has frequently been observed in this forum that 'progressive' or 'graded' hammer feature is good to have, but not essential (Yamaha's CP5 doesn't have it, and that's one of the most highly regarded keyboards there is). And the three sensor system is also desirable and, for some, important. But it doesn't actually have any bearing on the tactile quality of the keyboard.

So any keyboard with 3 sensors and differently weighted keys, top to bottom, could technically, and 'honestly', be called PHA III. The problem is, that name (which may or may not be protected as a trade mark) is associated with Roland's best piano keyboard which has a high reputation - loved by some, not much liked by others (as is the case with Yamaha's and Kawai's equivalent products).

The real mystery is why Roland designate some keyboards PHA III S- Feel and others just PHA III. And why the photos of the Ivory Feel G keyboard mechanism (generally considered a lower mass compromise, to save on weight and price) is almost identical to the photo of the PHA III keyboard mechanism.

Curious.
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#1968338 - 10/03/12 05:30 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
jhm Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 29
Loc: Sweden
Tomorrow I really have to get hold of someone at Roland, to surely elaborate on this subject. If I'm successful I will post my findings here. This is the only thing found on Roland's website so far, the rest is more or less marketing stuff.

http://www.roland.com/products/en/exp/PH_Action_Keyboard.html


Edited by jhm (10/03/12 05:57 PM)
Edit Reason: Typo
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#1968361 - 10/03/12 06:28 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
torhu Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 176
Originally Posted By: toddy
The real mystery is why Roland designate some keyboards PHA III S- Feel and others just PHA III.

There really is no mystery. The "S-feel" is the slightly cheaper of the two PHAIII versions. Without the fake wood look, and with a smoother top surface on the white keys. I have played both, and they feel pretty much the same mechanically.

Originally Posted By: toddy
And why the photos of the Ivory Feel G keyboard mechanism (generally considered a lower mass compromise, to save on weight and price) is almost identical to the photo of the PHA III keyboard mechanism.
Curious.
They feel very different when you play them, that's all that matters, isn't it?
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#1968374 - 10/03/12 06:58 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: torhu]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1320
Loc: Portugal
Originally Posted By: torhu

They feel very different when you play them, that's all that matters, isn't it?


Yes - I was just about to say something similar, but you got there first. Actually I'm perfectly happy with PHA II - it's firm, feels authentic enough and yet is not as heavy (leaden even) as some other DP keyboards. And it is way better than nearly all acoustic uprights I've ever played. So this is all idle gossip, really....or academic curiosity smile .
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Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
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#1968377 - 10/03/12 07:05 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3474
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: toddy
So this is all idle gossip, really....or academic curiosity smile .


Well, it's a bit more than that. People always come by here asking for purchasing advice and we'd hate to give them advice like "well, these two have the same action, so you should only consider..." when, in fact, the two actions just have the same name but differ in some important respect.

Several times basic things come up like people feeling that RD700NX keys feel different than those of the FP7F, or that the V-Piano keys feel different from both. It would be great to know if that is just in our heads.

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#1968384 - 10/03/12 07:25 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8393
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Which is why it's essential for consumers to play the instruments themselves, rather than relying solely on the subjective opinions of others.

James
x
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#1968397 - 10/03/12 08:09 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1320
Loc: Portugal
Right. It is important to have this information out there especially for prospective buyers, I agree. Even so, it's best to experiment yourself on the keyboards as the feel and sound (not the manufacturer's spec sheets or publicity brochures) is what really counts.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#1968555 - 10/04/12 05:51 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
jhm Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 29
Loc: Sweden
I give up! I talked today with two different persons at Roland Sweden, and the answers I got were (to say the least) inconclusive. The marketing person claimed that Ivory Feel-G and S were both "new" technologies, inforced to succeed PHA alpha II and PHA II, and equally good compared to PHA III, but in a different form factor (because of different applications).

The second person was a technician, and found it hard to differentiate between the different models at all, and just kept claiming that the only interesting part regarding Ivory Feel-G and S, was in fact the ivory like surface material.

Any kind of "ranking" was pointless, since they all had different applications, but that they technology wise were equally good, since they all have the Tri-Sensor technology (and then I'm not counting PHA II, since it's soon discontinued).

That's all folks! wink
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#1968637 - 10/04/12 11:05 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: jhm]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
I also give up when reading jhm information about ivory feel surface material on G and S. For those familiar a bit with German, look at
http://www.rolandmusik.de/produkte/HP505/index.php
and find out that also PHAIII w/o G or w/o S has Ivory feel. But I am still speculating that we can not 100% rely that complete information is given in the online catalogue, maybe simply the S is missing for that instrument description.

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#1968662 - 10/04/12 11:53 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1320
Loc: Portugal
Well actually, I don't think the matter of whether the keys are 'Ivory' surfaced or not is really a problem. There have always been Roland keyboards with 'Ivory', long before the 's' and 'g' designations came along. But there IS always the word 'Ivory' in the description, if the key tops have it.....

....mmmm, I realise that's a bit confusing. But I think it boils down to a confusion of two systems: (PHAII/III), and ('s', 'g')

So far, we can make these assumptions (or 'premises' if we are to make a syllogism):

*All lettered models (s, g) have ivory
*Not all PHA models have ivory.
*All 's' models are PHA III
*Not all PHA III models are 's'
*Some PHA II models are Ivory
*All lettered models have three sensors (at least according to German brochure)
*Although 'g' is ivory, progressive hammered and 3 sensored, it is not called PHA III
*PHA II is never 's' or 'g' but is probably identical to PHA III except in the matter of the third sensor.
*'g' has replaced PHA alpha II but is a different (better) mechanism.
*PHA II is gradually being phased out.
*'s' and 'g' are new developments.
*'s' is being phased out (according to some Roland sources, at least)
*'S-Feel' is sometimes CALLED "PHA III Ivory Feel-S Keyboard with Escapement" (FP-7f), but other times is just called "Ivory Feel-S Keyboard with Escapement" (HP-505) - but BOTH of those are Ivory, so that is not the difference, even if a difference exists.

The Roland sales department have provided us with hours of fun. And it's not over yet.


...oh and the conclusion from that snakes' bucket of premises: PHA III is boss! Beware of the rest, though you might be lucky.


Edited by toddy (10/04/12 12:06 PM)
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#1968666 - 10/04/12 12:09 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
jhm Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 29
Loc: Sweden
Some parts are quite funny actually, some are not. For instance, on my question to the marketing lady, why the german brochure's are so much more detailed... Well, the germans like catalogues. crazy Ok, I know this a bit from my work, but that hardly explains why there is so little detail in the Swedish and UK versions.

I think this is all about "clever marketing" pushing for what they in one sentence refer to as entry level products, and in the other as something that "inherits the overall glory" of the more premium piano models.

This sort of fuzzy marcom, sure helps to preserve the mystique well enough, to make us customers get an exclusive impression from the entry- and mid-range models as well, thus selling more pianos. wink

I'm in marcom myself, but do prefer clear and consistent messages to customers.

Originally Posted By: toddy
Well actually, I don't think the matter of whether the keys are 'Ivory' surfaced or not is really a problem. There have always been Roland keyboards with 'Ivory', long before the 's' and 'g' designations came along. But there IS always the word 'Ivory' in the description, if the key tops have it.....

....mmmm, I realise that's a bit confusing. But I think it boils down to a confusion of two systems: (PHAII/III), and ('s', 'g')

So far, we can make these assumptions (or 'premises' if we are to make a syllogism):

*All lettered models (s, g) have ivory
*Not all PHA models have ivory.
*All 's' models are PHA III
*Not all PHA III models are 's'
*Some PHA II models are Ivory
*All lettered models have three sensors (at least according to German brochure)
*Although 'g' is ivory, progressive hammered and 3 sensored, it is not called PHA III
*PHA II is never 's' or 'g' but is probably identical to PHA III except in the matter of the third sensor.
*'g' has replaced PHA alpha II but is a different (better) mechanism.
*PHA II is gradually being phased out.
*'s' and 'g' are new developments.
*'s' is being phased out (according to some Roland sources, at least)

The Roland sales department have provided us with hours of fun. And it's not over yet.


...oh and the conclusion from that snakes' bucket of premises: PHA III is boss! Beware of the rest, though you might be lucky.
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Roland F-120 DP, AKG K240 MkII HP

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#1968670 - 10/04/12 12:20 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1320
Loc: Portugal
jhm, I agree with you compltetely, and probably Germans do, in general, appreciate details. The problem here is that some of the details seem rather contradictory. They certainly are not clear, and I believe Germans certainly expect clarity above all.

So, have you decided which piano to buy yet?...That's the main thing. smile
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#1968708 - 10/04/12 01:43 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
jhm and toddy I also agree, but not on the Germans feature. Nevertheless I had quite fun, when reading your posts - even if you gave serious answers.

You will probably find in all communities people who like to understand what they read, and if the brochure indicates a differences and went into details, you would probably like to understand what is explained. The only problem here is that the German brochure emphasis the ivory G technical description and treads in some none clear way the S model, while on PHAIII nothing is said.

If you look to the united kingdom HP, you will find in the catalogue (product page) the identical description. So I assume the german catalogue is only a excellent translation of the english one. Further more the digital piano brochure in english also give technical details on the actions, but this in a very short, but also very clear way. The amount of information is well balanced for all the three actual actions. Usually you have to create an account to get it. If have no idea if the link works for you:

http://www.roland.co.uk/MyRoland/DownloadBrochure.aspx? brochure=CAzjWUTO0W6al6W9cLccsqBfhlUe%2fW21OAkxOm1F%2b2%2f8gotZQNgZLA%3d%3d

So for me there is really no significant more information in the english version up to know, but I am going this evening to look more into their brochures. If I find out something new I will report.

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#1968725 - 10/04/12 02:29 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
jhm Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 29
Loc: Sweden
Yes, I wan't a model with the keyboard prior to PHA alpha II... or NOT. wink Well, I actually phoned in my order to the musicstore today, and managed to get a total price that was less than Thomann wanted. (The guy owning the music store is an old friend of my musician cousins.)

I settled for the Roland F-120 (one reason for obsessing over the different keyboard types maybe crazy ) and the AKG K240 Mk-II headphones, as well as the new UM-ONE Mk-II USB to MIDI interface from Roland.

From my point of view this was the best combo for a guy that haven't played the piano now for almost 15 years, but is getting back in the music game. wink

When it comes to details germans and swedes have similar perceptions of order and detail. The german expression about Preussian order is actually a legacy from one of our kings in the past (Carl the XII). smile


Originally Posted By: toddy
jhm, I agree with you compltetely, and probably Germans do, in general, appreciate details. The problem here is that some of the details seem rather contradictory. They certainly are not clear, and I believe Germans certainly expect clarity above all.

So, have you decided which piano to buy yet?...That's the main thing. smile
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#1968726 - 10/04/12 02:32 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: ap55]
jhm Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 29
Loc: Sweden
You need to register with Roland to obtain the PDF (I'm a registered user). However, I still find the UK brochure less elaborate than the german "equivalent".

Cheers! smile

Originally Posted By: ap55
jhm and toddy I also agree, but not on the Germans feature. Nevertheless I had quite fun, when reading your posts - even if you gave serious answers.

You will probably find in all communities people who like to understand what they read, and if the brochure indicates a differences and went into details, you would probably like to understand what is explained. The only problem here is that the German brochure emphasis the ivory G technical description and treads in some none clear way the S model, while on PHAIII nothing is said.

If you look to the united kingdom HP, you will find in the catalogue (product page) the identical description. So I assume the german catalogue is only a excellent translation of the english one. Further more the digital piano brochure in english also give technical details on the actions, but this in a very short, but also very clear way. The amount of information is well balanced for all the three actual actions. Usually you have to create an account to get it. If have no idea if the link works for you:

http://www.roland.co.uk/MyRoland/DownloadBrochure.aspx? brochure=CAzjWUTO0W6al6W9cLccsqBfhlUe%2fW21OAkxOm1F%2b2%2f8gotZQNgZLA%3d%3d

So for me there is really no significant more information in the english version up to know, but I am going this evening to look more into their brochures. If I find out something new I will report.



Edited by jhm (10/04/12 02:33 PM)
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#1968764 - 10/04/12 04:16 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
BeccaBb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/11
Posts: 905
Loc: Thunder Bay, On Canada
I've been reading this thread with interest. I have the RD300NX (which I know many dislike) and can not figure out the difference in keys either. I know that I like how my action feels. Hopefully someone will be able to figure out the actual difference? Roland is very vague on what the Ivory Feel G really is.
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Began: 01-12-11


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#1968934 - 10/05/12 12:48 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
For me I get rid in mind for the differences from the different brochures and the great postings here - even if this is to be confirmed by some Roland action expert:

PHAIII is like the same as the S, but the keys are a two piece design, issuing some fake wood optic for the keys (somewhere found in the posts).
S therewith the same as PHAIII, but w/o the wood fake design. It is therefore a one piece design (one piece design information is available from the english brochure 2012).
G is a similar design as S, but for weight reasons with different mass, resulting from a different geometry (information found in the german brochure).

I had some samples of different actions in my hands one week ago in a store, but didn't know that this discussion is trying to go so deep in details. So I could have had a deeper look on these. I wonder if no dealer is here in the forum, that has action samples in the store and can find out/confirm the differences.

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#1968964 - 10/05/12 02:57 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
JFP Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: The Netherlands
It would be better if a Roland official joined in and cleared up this keybed mess once and for all for everyone...

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#1968983 - 10/05/12 06:07 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
I know I'm from a different planet to most of you here grin, being a techno-phobe and having no idea of what MIDIs are etc, etc, but surely we're talking about keyboard feel and action here, not about how to make a DP the Roland way?

In which case, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, not the temperature the pudding was cooked at, or how long it was cooked for, or what brand the oven/stove is, or even what its ingredients are. In other words, you judge a DP's action by playing it, not by the manufacturer's use of gobbledegook in its websites and brochures....

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#1968986 - 10/05/12 06:32 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: bennevis]
jhm Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 29
Loc: Sweden
To a certain extent that is absolutely true. However there are many different "users" in this forum, from very advanced pianists to absolute beginners, and therefore it could be interesting some times to dig a bit deeper. smile

Originally Posted By: bennevis
I know I'm from a different planet to most of you here grin, being a techno-phobe and having no idea of what MIDIs are etc, etc, but surely we're talking about keyboard feel and action here, not about how to make a DP the Roland way?

In which case, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, not the temperature the pudding was cooked at, or how long it was cooked for, or what brand the oven/stove is, or even what its ingredients are. In other words, you judge a DP's action by playing it, not by the manufacturer's use of gobbledegook in its websites and brochures....
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Roland F-120 DP, AKG K240 MkII HP

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#1968987 - 10/05/12 06:32 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: bennevis]
Marco M Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/12
Posts: 447
Loc: Europe
Bennevis, I think discussion drifted somehow towards the curiosity, if the differences we imagine to feel when playing the different Roland actions are actually coming from different actions, or if those imagined feelings might be biased significantly by the resposiveness of the electronic and software translation of action to sound because we don┬┤t separate finger feelings anymore well from already received ear experience. Finally there is also the curiosity on how far we are biased by the sales promotion.
If we would reliably know the mechanical facts of the different Roland keyboards, then we all could better derive our conlusions.
_________________________
learning Piano on my Roland HP-505
before playing Drums in adults bluesband on handpicked set; before crashing E-Guitar in kids garage band; raised on home entertainment Organ and Keyboard models Eminent Solina P240, Farfisa Maharani 259R, Technics KN800, and on Mouth Organ, Recorder and Accordion

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#1968988 - 10/05/12 06:34 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: Marco M]
jhm Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/12
Posts: 29
Loc: Sweden
Originally Posted By: Marco M
Bennevis, I think discussion drifted somehow towards the curiosity, if the differences we imagine to feel when playing the different Roland actions are actually coming from different actions, or if those imagined feelings might be biased significantly by the resposiveness of the electronic and software translation of action to sound because we don┬┤t separate finger feelings anymore well from already received ear experience. Finally there is also the curiosity on how far we are biased by the sales promotion.
If we would reliably know the mechanical facts of the different Roland keyboards, then we all could better derive our conlusions.


+1
_________________________
Roland F-120 DP, AKG K240 MkII HP

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#1969020 - 10/05/12 09:01 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: bennevis]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3076
Originally Posted By: bennevis
you judge a DP's action by playing it, not by the manufacturer's use of gobbledegook in its websites and brochures....

I agree, but I would still find it useful to know the differences when evaluating models, because it is rare that you can find all the models you want in your local shop. So if, for example, you knew that Model X had the same keyboard as Model Y except that for, say, not having the ivory finish, or not having the third sensor, then having played Model Y, you would have a pretty good idea of how Model X would feel, without having to track one down to play it.

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#1969051 - 10/05/12 10:22 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: Marco M]
PianoWorksATL Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2634
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: Marco M
If we would reliably know the mechanical facts of the different Roland keyboards, then we all could better derive our conlusions.
I accept that there is a range for valid opinions on "feel" and that you don't have to be a pro pianist to have valid experience. I do not accept that we have a collection of engineering design experts out here equipped to evaluate the validity of another's design.

We're entitled to know a product is not dangerous or not making absurd claims like "spend a year on a ______ keyboard and you will have the skill of Horowitz". But do car manufacturers post their brake designs on forums for the public to decide their merits? In the end, all you get are specs, dimensions, and test drive reviews.

What if the 2nd pivot point in the "Deluxe PHA III action with escapement and ivory feel" is a milimeter smaller than in the "Ivory Feel-S PHA III w/escapement" to accomodate a 5% overall mass reduction and 10% thicker felt? Maybe the felt is 20% cheaper or there is one less step in the manufacturing stages or there is a machine that better automates the assembly of 1-piece keys but has some other hidden tradeoff?

Sorry, but go back to playing and choosing. If you want to comment on design, do like dewster, buy one, disassemble it and take naked pictures. I've noticed dewster is careful to be specific when placing value judgments on his own area of expertise.
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#1969132 - 10/05/12 02:12 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: PianoWorksATL]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3076
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
I believe Ivory Feel-G has a third sensor because it behaves as if it does.
...
On the PHA II, the key has to return to about 80% before it can be restruck for sound. In the PHA III and Ivory Feel-G, the reset point is about 50% - 60%.

The presence of a third sensor cannot really be tested that way... i.e. those result do not prove the presence of a third sensor.

The way to test it is to see if you can lift the key high enough to be able to restrike the note without hearing it go silent first (because it would be sending a second Note On without sending a Note Off in between the two strikes).

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