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#1969136 - 10/05/12 02:29 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: anotherscott]
PianoWorksATL Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2630
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted By: anotherscott
The presence of a third sensor cannot really be tested that way... i.e. those result do not prove the presence of a third sensor.

The way to test it is to see if you can lift the key high enough to be able to restrike the note without hearing it go silent first (because it would be sending a second Note On without sending a Note Off in between the two strikes).
I can confirm that it does that, too.
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
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#1969142 - 10/05/12 02:44 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: PianoWorksATL]
BeccaBb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/11
Posts: 905
Loc: Thunder Bay, On Canada
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL
[quote=Marco M]
But do car manufacturers post their brake designs on forums for the public to decide their merits? In the end, all you get are specs, dimensions, and test drive reviews.

Sorry, but go back to playing and choosing. I've noticed dewster is careful to be specific when placing value judgments on his own area of expertise.


Well I can't leave this alone. For the first part, I worked in the Auto Parts Sector until just a few days ago. You can go to any dealer and/or parts stores (the ones that have actual experts) and get this information directly. Yes they do provide it to the dealers and auto parts sector. They HAVE to. How each piece is built and what if is of extreme importance.

Secondly, I find it interesting that you are making judgements on those of us interested in knowing exactly what our actions are. Perhaps you should follow your own advice and go back to playing yourself? I know that I am quite capable of both playing my Roland and asking and reading about my action at the same time. And we DO HAVE THE RIGHT to ask what ever we please.

Butting out now...
_________________________
Becca
Began: 01-12-11


Floundering and Lost
Roland RD300NX

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#1969177 - 10/05/12 04:44 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: Marco M]
Marco M Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/12
Posts: 445
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Marco M
If we would reliably know the mechanical facts of the different Roland keyboards, then we all could better derive our conlusions.


I mean, the manufacturer should be able to publish something like this: action A is optimized to be compact and light weight for best fitting the needs of easier portability of an instrument, its feel is intented to still meet the feel known from action B; action B is optimized to please the pianists who prefer lower resistant key movement; action C is optimized to please the pianists who prefer a higher resistant key movement; different dynamical yields are achievable due to the following types of electronics ... ; the following finishes are available... ;

Is this really so difficult to publish?

I guess that clearer information will attract customers while unclear information will let customers feel uncomfortable. This thread proofs it.
_________________________
learning Piano on my Roland HP-505
before playing Drums in adults bluesband on handpicked set; before crashing E-Guitar in kids garage band; raised on home entertainment Organ and Keyboard models Eminent Solina P240, Farfisa Maharani 259R, Technics KN800, and on Mouth Organ, Recorder and Accordion

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#1969179 - 10/05/12 04:47 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: BeccaBb]
PianoWorksATL Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/19/09
Posts: 2630
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Hello Becca,

The auto industry is 1,000,000 x bigger than the digital piano industry. As you were quick to indicate, relatively few of the people employed are experts in how the components are made such that not every big dealer will have one, let alone every small dealer, and so on.

I would be extremely impressed if anyone at Atlanta Toyota could describe how the factory that makes the brake calipers for the Camry uses a better standard or design than the one that makes the calipers for the Corolla. Instead, you'll get a mileage rating and dimensions and a nice shiny box that says Toyota. They can look up which model and year it fits. If there is an improvement, they analyze and test it behind closed doors and then incorporate it into the whole design for testing and reviews. I do not see a public symposium everytime they tweak the drivetrain. They provide marketing information.

Everything revolves around trusting Toyota to have reasonable quality/performance standards for competitive price. Performance reviews from Car & Driver don't devote more than a paragraph to improved braking, let alone an evaluation of how the calipers are made vs. another design. They use highly technical terms like "faster" or "roomier" and provide a chart cut & pasted from the manufacturer for cubic inches and wheel base.

My point is that your action is the movement, the feel, the control, the tool of expression. If someone prefers the feel of a action with wood keys, is it the wood they prefer or the geometry? Of course it can be a little bit of both, but the design details won't break it down for you. It's just marketing on a smaller scale.

I read in another thread someone commenting about the firm action in their P105, even calling it heavy. While certainly weighted and very firm for that user's experience, on the continuum of weighted actions, it is on the light side.

I would like clarity on the Ivory Feel-S vs. the other PHA III, but I know and accept that because of similar performance, the difference is not significant in the same way as the difference between the G and S actions. I would be curious to the companies' insight as to the possible source of variance in the portable G actions vs the consoles with the G action. Maybe that is a fine distinction, but I don't feel left out without it because I know how it feels to me.

I think the RD-300NX is a fantastic product overall. But like a lot of members here, I'm still waiting for the miracle action in lightweight, portable form.

I've spent most of my life observing and studying and working on acoustic pianos as a basis for expertise. For digitals, "what I know" changes faster than the time it took to learn "what I know". So what I care about is performance related and that will always have a subjective slant.
_________________________
Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Weber & Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta

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#1969183 - 10/05/12 04:54 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: PianoWorksATL]
spanishbuddha Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2232
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: PianoWorksATL

I think the RD-300NX is a fantastic product overall. But like a lot of members here, I'm still waiting for the miracle action in lightweight, portable form.

Going (further) OT now, but recent discussions suggest Casio have it in the PX150/350 and other new models. I've not played them so cannot say myself.

BTW interesting thread, nothing wrong with the discussion, but I'm on the side of it's interesting to know about the actions, but the answer lies in the feel.



Edited by spanishbuddha (10/05/12 04:57 PM)

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#1969390 - 10/06/12 10:03 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4384
Some may be surprised that I'm an inverterate collector of brochures on all sorts of products, including those from companies whose products I have no intention of buying (or more likely, cannot afford to buy cry) - everything from mountaineering gear and backpacks to photographic equipment to running shoes and mountain bikes to acoustic pianos and, er, digital pianos. Partly to admire the photography (and salivate over the gear grin), partly to see how big companies differ in their design parameters and emphasis, and partly to see how they like to bamboozle customers with all sorts of technical terms (mostly of their own invention).

What is obvious to me is that companies never, ever say that their cheaper products are in any way inferior to their flagship ones, or that they were designed down to a specific price point (which of course they are). They obfuscate and use ever more fanciful words to describe the differences without actually mentioning the fact that something's been removed from the cheaper product in order to make it cheaper. But you'll have to read far between the lines of the colorful prose in their websites/brochures (or penetrate behind them...) to realize that something is indeed missing from the cheaper stuff, much less find out what it is. So, if anyone thinks that people from Roland/Yamaha/Kawai/Korg/Casio/Nord/whatever are going to come on here and explain in plain English (or even American-English) what the differences are between their cheap stuff and expensive products, they're going to be waiting till, er, the acoustic piano goes the way of T. Rex (OK, I know said T. Rex is still with us, according to Spielberg... grin).

Which is why I reiterate what I said earlier - judge the key actions of DPs by playing them. If you're not happy, look elsewhere. No amount of technical explanation by any expert (real or otherwise) will change the fact that you don't like their feel. Unlike those of acoustic pianos, DP actions cannot be altered.......

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#1969392 - 10/06/12 10:19 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
Did you know ?

For the S-action, only the white keys are with ivory, not the black ones ? It was somewhere written in another forum. Can someone confirm. That would be a further difference, if the PHAIII have black and white in ivory feel.

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#1969395 - 10/06/12 10:25 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4384
No, PHA-III doesn't have black keys in ivory feel. The black keys are in simulated ebony.

On acoustics, only the white keys (used to) have real ivory plates.

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#1969396 - 10/06/12 10:25 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: ap55]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3329
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: ap55
Did you know ?

For the S-action, only the white keys are with ivory, not the black ones ? It was somewhere written in another forum. Can someone confirm. That would be a further difference, if the PHAIII have black and white in ivory feel.


Why would you expect the black keys to have an "ivory feel"? If anything they should have an "ebony feel".

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#1969403 - 10/06/12 10:48 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
ap55 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/03/12
Posts: 79
Loc: Germany, Bremen
Ando,
I never would expect on an acoustic ivory for the blacks and I was clear that the blacks should be ebony. Even, if the color is different I would like the blacks to have the same ivory feel material then the white keys. It simply a feeling when you touch the keys, which is poorly subjective and might depend on the individual.

For bennevis
Now, on the digital piono, the strings are fake as well as the key material, which is now called at Roland "ivory feel". It is now very clear the white keys are for PHAIII as well as for S and G ivory feel key top material. But what about the ebony imitation on the black keys, is it the same for S and PHAIII. I was expecting up to know that all blacks have the same surface material as the white keys. For the S I assumed that the black keys are simply plastic and no fake ebony material. Can you confirm that S and PHAIII black keys are the same surface material ?

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#1969408 - 10/06/12 11:06 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: ap55]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4384
Originally Posted By: ap55


For bennevis
Now, on the digital piono, the strings are fake as well as the key material, which is now called at Roland "ivory feel". It is now very clear the white keys are for PHAIII as well as for S and G ivory feel key top material. But what about the ebony imitation on the black keys, is it the same for S and PHAIII. I was expecting up to know that all blacks have the same surface material as the white keys. For the S I assumed that the black keys are simply plastic and no fake ebony material. Can you confirm that S and PHAIII black keys are the same surface material ?


I don't know about S - I may have played Rolands using them before, but haven't taken note. The PHA-III on my V-Piano has what looks like solid plastic black keys with non-slippery surfaces (ebony-like), but not the ivory-feel coating that is (or rather, was) on the white keys. I suspect that the only difference apart from the color between the white and black keys is the coating on the white ones, which, as I and a few others have found, can abrade with use. The replacement white keys that Roland fitted under warranty don't have the ivory-feel coating, but still feels great beneath my fingers, and aren't smooth shiny plastic either.

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#2091288 - 05/29/13 10:51 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1492
Do you have any information or opinion on the action in the new Roland FP-50?

Thanks
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#2091302 - 05/29/13 11:05 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1320
Loc: Portugal
Yes - the Roland FP 50 has Ivory Feel G so all of the conversations above are about it - especially in comparison with PHA III (which is supposedly the same as Ivory Feel S).

Quick precis: Ivory Feel G is certainly inferior to PHA II/ PHA III which are generally considered very good indeed as simulated grand piano actions, lighter in feel than the equivelent from Kawai & Yamaha (GH / GH3 etc).

It is the cheaper, lighter weight alternative and, thus, is not as good as the more substantial PHAII/III.

However, it is a big improvement from their previous cheaper action, which was called PHA alpha II - that was crap.

I'd say Ivory Feel-G is more or less like Yamaha GHS, but I've only tried it once or twice in a shop, so please don't hold me to that.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2091399 - 05/29/13 01:19 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1492
Something has been updated and changed with "Ivory Feel-G", they have added "Escapement" to it.
They mention escapement for the first time regarding the FP-50 action, from Roland: "Ivory Feel-G keyboard with Escapement" , the wording otherwise is the same for the FP-4F action. The FP-4F and FP-4 did not have escapement in their actions. My friend has the FP-4F and the new FP-50 and he says the action is better now.
Escapement sounds promising... escapement is what I like about real pianos: I am able to throw the hammer at about the point of half way down into the key stroke and then the key feels like it flies away with little resistance the rest of the way down.
Do you get a piano tone from the FP-50 key stroke well reaching the bottom of the key bed? (like around half the way down like on a real piano?) It's playing to the bottom of the key bed while constantly pressing against a firm spring that never stops pushing back that makes my wrists so sore.
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#2091443 - 05/29/13 02:33 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1320
Loc: Portugal
Not sure, but I don't think escapement makes any significant difference at all - it's a nice detail which mimics real grands, but nothing more. None of these actions, not real grand pianos, use springs in their action, anyway.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2091449 - 05/29/13 02:45 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1492
My friend, who is a master jazz pianist, and has owned both the FP4 and the FP-4F writes: "FP4-F action feels much more sluggish than the FP-50 action. The FP-50 is more responsive than the 4-F, and repeating notes is faster. The sound seems to occur just as, or just before the key hits bottom. It's a very subtle distinction here... It just seems more controllable, less sluggish, and somewhat easier on the hands."

I myself have owned both the FP-4 and the FP-4F at the same time and can testify the FP-4f action is too jumpy and sluggish.
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#2091546 - 05/29/13 06:08 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
toddy Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/30/11
Posts: 1320
Loc: Portugal
I agree that the Ivory Feel-G that I tried (before the fp50 existed) was a little sluggish - so this means then that not all Ivory Feel-G's are equal. The escapement action itself is just a small flap of plastic that very gently interrupts the progress downwards of the key. It has no effect on the other aspects of the action.

....unless, of course, the 'escapement' feature is something different from the let-off point simulation.
_________________________
Roland HP 302, Yamaha SY85

Reaper / NI Komplete 9 /Kontakt 5// EWQL Sym Choirs/ Sym Orchestra Silver/ MOR2
Mics: SP B1 & MXL V67g/ Alesis MicTube Preamp/ Xenyx302/ Yamaha HS7s .

"Only a fool is fooled" pv88, All Fools' Day 2014.

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#2091573 - 05/29/13 06:49 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
rnaple Offline

Silver Supporter until April 24 2014


Registered: 12/23/10
Posts: 1801
Loc: Rocky Mountains
Originally Posted By: toddy
...However, ... that was crap.


That's what I love about these forums. Such diplomatic, understated, and highly tactful responses. smile
_________________________
Ron
Ingrid, my beloved VPC : "Play it Sam....For old times sake...Play it for me...I'll sing it with you...Play me again, Sam."

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#2091890 - 05/30/13 01:52 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1492
I have noticed that Roland is frequently updating their "actions" without renaming them. The FP4 went through several action updates over a three year period.

I have ordered a Roland FP-50 to give it a try. If they have gotten rid of the sluggishness that was in the FP-4F action it could be okay.
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#2091920 - 05/30/13 03:59 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
JFP Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/10
Posts: 1317
Loc: The Netherlands
It seems the A-88 controller has the escapement features as well. It was a bit earlier on the market than the new FP-50.

- Any idea if the A-88 keyed is indeed the same and (more important) plays/feels the same as the keybed in the Fp-50 ?

From the posts above I understand the Fp-50 Ivory-G keybed is actually quite reasonable. Wonder if the difference between that keybed and the PHA-III S is still big enough to cover the difference in cost and weight (!). If it is almost as good - the FP-50 may be quite interesting compared to the FP-80 , if you don't need the better speaker or harmonizer. It's much cheaper and more portable.

- last thought ; any of you had a chance to compare the new Ivory-G with escapement against it's closest contender, the Casio PX-x50 series ? My feeling says the Casio plays better overall, but I wonder what other people think about that. In the end it's not only the short initial impression, but also factors like durability / key-noise / bottoming out that are a factor of consideration.

P.S. I personally only know the older RD300NX G-keybed to compare with. A-88 / FP-50 is not on demo anywhere near. The RD300NX keys are obviously inferior IMHO, so hope the later Ivory-G's are indeed better.


Edited by JFP (05/30/13 04:02 AM)

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#2091933 - 05/30/13 05:43 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
thomsurf Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/01/10
Posts: 151
Loc: Copenhagen, Denmark
The FP-50 keybed feels better than RD300NX. Tried the FP in a shop a couple of weeks ago and it reallly is less 'sluggish' than the action on my RD.
_________________________
Roland RD800, JBL PRX612M.

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#2096087 - 06/05/13 10:18 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1492
I received the FP-50 2 days ago and the action is too much work to play. I will return it and be sticking with the FP-4 and it's lighter action.
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

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#2096119 - 06/05/13 10:54 AM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: toddy]
voxpops Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/20/07
Posts: 2910
Loc: Oregon
I had the RD-64 for a few weeks (returned because I found it a little too limiting). I agree that the newer "G" action is hard work - you kind of have to force each note down - but, paradoxically, I could also play expressively and swiftly on it. Comparing it to the PX-5S, which has a similar depth, and therefore key length, I'd say that the Casio is a more balanced action, but it may not be quite as responsive (repeated notes are slightly easier/faster on the Roland, despite the pressure required).

It's ironic that the old FP-4 used to get hammered for its action by its critics (pun not intended!), and yet a number of people (including me) found it remarkably responsive given the size and weight of that DP. There's always going to be a compromise with the smaller boards, and Roland responded to the criticisms of the Alpha action by trying to keep all the main features of the PHAIII keybed, while scaling it down to fit the reduced dimensions. Something has to give in that equation.

I did find that, after a couple of weeks, I had adjusted to the "G" action sufficiently not to worry about it while playing. If I stopped to think about it, it seemed overly heavy, and occasionally I'd lose the odd note in a fast run because I hadn't hit the key with enough force, or had struck it too near the pivot point. I had been thinking about replacing the RD with the FP-50, but I'm on the fence about it due to these slight qualms concerning the action. I think I was a little hasty in selling my FP-4...

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#2096391 - 06/05/13 05:14 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: voxpops]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1492
Originally Posted By: voxpops
I had the RD-64 for a few weeks (returned because I found it a little too limiting). I agree that the newer "G" action is hard work - you kind of have to force each note down - but, paradoxically, I could also play expressively and swiftly on it. Comparing it to the PX-5S, which has a similar depth, and therefore key length, I'd say that the Casio is a more balanced action, but it may not be quite as responsive (repeated notes are slightly easier/faster on the Roland, despite the pressure required).

It's ironic that the old FP-4 used to get hammered for its action by its critics (pun not intended!), and yet a number of people (including me) found it remarkably responsive given the size and weight of that DP. There's always going to be a compromise with the smaller boards, and Roland responded to the criticisms of the Alpha action by trying to keep all the main features of the PHAIII keybed, while scaling it down to fit the reduced dimensions. Something has to give in that equation.

I did find that, after a couple of weeks, I had adjusted to the "G" action sufficiently not to worry about it while playing. If I stopped to think about it, it seemed overly heavy, and occasionally I'd lose the odd note in a fast run because I hadn't hit the key with enough force, or had struck it too near the pivot point. I had been thinking about replacing the RD with the FP-50, but I'm on the fence about it due to these slight qualms concerning the action. I think I was a little hasty in selling my FP-4...


Good points, I agree. My problem is that the extra work required to play the FP-50 action tends to inflame my tendinitis.

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#2096411 - 06/05/13 05:41 PM Re: How good is Roland Ivory Feel-G ? [Re: rintincop]
Dave Ferris Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 1675
Loc: Glendale, Ca.
I could never get comfortable with the FP4 personally, specifically because of the action. Didn't like the FP-4F or FP7 that much either. The only Roland action/sound connection I've found to be agreeable with me is the 700NX. PHA III is it ? Maybe to a lesser extent the one on the V-Piano.

I will keep an open mind and see if the FP50 or 80 agrees with me. Basically though, I think the main issue is- I'm not a Roland guy. wink

Have an offer out on a CP5 through CL . It's lower then seller wants. He has all these "accessories" (that I don't need) he wants to unload. He said he wanted to test the waters for a few weeks to see if it sells at his asking price. I said cool, get back to me if doesn't sell. I'm in no hurry, the Nord is working fine actually. I'm probably content to wait things out for a new CP line or another CP5 to come along. I know I don't want to pay more then $1500 for a used one.
_________________________
http://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

2005 NY Steinway D, Nord Piano 2

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